Why is it that the progressives here refuse to recognize that Jews, not zionists, are hated in the Middle East. Saying it is because of Israel is like blaming the rape victim 'cause she was asking for it.

Read your history. The Arab world never gave a sh*t about the Arabs in Palestine before 1948. Egypt, Syria, and Jordan were only interested in grabbing the land after the British left.

The idea that now the 'Arab street' cares about the Palestiniass is a farce, and you all should be ashamed of yourselves for your intellectual dishonesty. The 'Arab street' is angry because there is a JEWISH state in what they see as Arab lands. how dare the dhimmi rise up and be uppity as the Jews have dared to do.

That is where the true racism is, but that doesn't fit your political agenda, so you fudge your way around it. How many of you protest the fact that there are even 'Arab' states? Not everyone who lives there are Arabs. What about Pakistan? A 'Muslim' state? Who here hates Syria, Egypt, Iraq, etc. for those countries' treatment of their non-muslim or non-Arab minorities? But lots of you sure do hate Israel. How interesting.

Hypocricy, Hypocricy, Hypocricy thy name is "Bay Area Progressive"

It says "I hate *israel*" ... israel is a state, it is not all jewish people everywhere, etc.

Prove that the Palestinians actually hate Jews, and not just the oppressive israeli government. Prove it by stopping illegal settlements. Prove it by the end of boobytraps in the west bank. Prove it by committing to the peace process for real.

You cannot expect people to have sympathy for what you are saying when the Israeli government is basically operating in apartheid conditions.

Interested in Palestinian hate of Jews? Look at http://www.edume.org/reports/7/1.htm

Please do not insist on appearing ignorant by repeating trite slogans. Arab racism of Jews did not start after June 1967. Jews have been shimmi in Muslim lands for centuries. Ask the Jews of Yemen how they were treated over the years...

And why didn;t you answer to the fact that 'Arab lands' and 'Muslim lands' are just as racist, yet no progressive EVER speaks out against that.

Do not forget that before that 1967, initiated by Nasser's belligerence, Jordan occupied the West Bank after the British Mandate ended. Why no Palestinian State then? Why no animosity towrds those occupiers? Because Jordan was a 'benevolant occupational force'?

Please answer to why it took until the late 1970's for Egypt to formally recognize Israel. Explain the 3 'no's' from the Khartoum conference after the 6 day war.

Explain why the corrupt Arafat allowed the horrible Hamas terrorist bombings of the mid-90's that killed dozens of Israeli civilians.

Israel is not perfect, far from it. But the progressives here like you see in this conflict an opportunity to begin with a political agenda, and then fill in the facts that you choose to in order to make everything fit nicely. Why is the progressive world aligned against the 5 million Jews in the Jewish state, but ignores the dozens of millions of Muslims in the Muslim state of Pakistan? But heck, there's no anti-semitism is there, I mean after all, there are Jews who are against Israel aren't there? That makes it ok doesn't it?

Do you just repeat slogans or do you read? Benny Morris, Ephraim Karsh, Tom Segev, Howard Sachar...

But cognitive dissonance is painful. Putting a bumper sticker on your car that says "Free Palestine" is easy.

try again Sheesh, think before you write this time.

I'm glad to hear Shaaban lost his McD's contract. I succumbed to temptation and tried a McFalafel sandwhich in Giza - what a mistake. The "falafel" tasted like ammonia, it was topped with a few limp shreds of some vegetative matter. Falafel anyplace else in Egypt is about 1/5 the cost and so good i buy it by the bag.

And progressives wonder where their best supporters, American Jews, went. I tell you where they went: Away from the anti-semitism of the new left.

I am constantly amazed at the consistent level of racism I find when people tell me why Israel is acting righteously. That is what you are writing to me ... racism.

"Egypt, Syria, and Jordan were only interested in grabbing the land"

Here, you are saying that Arabs have only one motivation in supporting Palestinians: greed. You can sum up the entire motivation of every Arab in that region as one simple conception ... greed. Certainly, you must just be talking about the governments. And even then, it is questionable. Tell me, why does the US support the state of Israel so much? It has nothing to do with greed, does it?

"But lots of you sure do hate Israel etc"

You would be hard-pressed to find many American radicals who are in favor of oppression by Arab or Muslim governments. Certainly, the attention given to RAWA and similar organizations show this. This does not change the fact that the policy of the Israeli government is nothing short of apartheid, it is wrong, and it must be changed.

And, let me just say this to all the other people on here complaining and saying that "the left" has lost Jewish supporters. I do not, and most of the people I know do *not* consider themselves part of the left. They oppose authoritarianism, militarism, racism, exploitation, etc. If the state of Israel is committing these things --- and I think it is pretty fucking obvious that they are --- then whatever you think is the "new left" is going to fucking call it out. If you think something is anti-semitic, then by all means say you think so, but at least explain why, dont just sit there and say "hypocrite" ... but if you think that it will be as easy as saying something is tautologically anti-semitic you should think again. Israel has shown itself to be a murderous, oppressive regime hell-bent on wiping out Palestinian people at whatever cost. The illegal settlements have to go. They are supported by the US Government. Their "security state" is the exact opposite of what we are fighting for. We should refuse to call Palestinians "terrorists" while at the same time calling IDF "defenders of freedom" ...

I *hate* Israel. And for that matter I pretty much hate the palestinian authority ... or any group who prolongs this sick and disgusting apartheid conflict. There needs to be social justice right fucking now.

it is not racist to point out facts. Again, I encourage you to read a bit more on how the Arab powers have treated the Palestinian Arabs before and after the establishment of Israel. No of course I cannot sum up the opinion of every single Arab, but I can only look to past history and present actions to infer.

It is racist to single out Israel as being the only coutry in the region, or the world for that matter when all of Israel's neighbors are more than guilty of brutality and oppression. Israel is just an easier target. No one ever talks about what Syria did in the city of Hama, or Jordan's Black September, or Iraq, etc. etc.

It is racist to deny the Jews the right of self determination.

I have never claimed israel is perfect. Your arguments don;t hold up. And you ask why the US Governemt supports Israel so much? A variety of reasons, most noatbly that all governemts act intheir perceived self interest. No fancy thinkin' needed to figure it out.

the reality is you are starting with an ideology and then twisting facts to conform to the worldview you have chosen. It's a popular tactic of the 'progressives' here in the Bay Area. Pick and choose the conflicts in the world that fit pre-conceived notions, and go from there. That is why no one protests Syria. The governemtn there killed off all its opposition, it's just not as sexy as the Palestinians' cause.

Adn yet another 3 Israeli civilians die today at the hands of Palestinain suicide bomber, but i guess in your mind they had it coming. What a noble set of values 'progressives' have.

Pointing at Syria doesnt help your case. The point is what is Israel doing right now. People arent protesting Syria because there is not genocide going on in Syria right now. There is in the West Bank.

I just think that it is very interesting that anyone can argue that Isreal is an illegal country in a land that is supposed to be a part of the Arab states when the fact of the matter is that the Arabs gained the land through violence and religious crusades. It is all in your history books. It is just interesting that when the US and, for that matter Isreal, gain land, either through offensive or defensive campaigns, it is always ideologically wrong. If you would like to look at history and the taking of land one must realize that the Jewish state of Isreal had been around MUCH longer in its current location than the Arab states. In fact, Isreal was around even before the religion of Islam existed and after, Arabs kicked the Jews out of Isreal in a true example of oppression and illegal land-grabing. It is too bad, though, that nobody looks at history. The Palestinians are the antagonists in this present situation, and were the same when Isreal DEFENSIVELY gained the territory in the West Bank. I guess these "progressive" people believe that ignorance is bliss. I sense that we are doomed to make our mistakes again. I sense another Jewish halocaust coming on!

Apologists for Israel are speaking to themselves. They don't even see how grotesque their own logic is. The live in communities of the likeminded and think the nightly news is the same as public opinion.

Her in NYC, I have to say most folks I know who aren't Israelis or Jews hate Israel. And most of them are intelligent enough to not hate Jews. Just as fools couldn't separate Germans from Nazis, so there are some who can't do likewise with Jews and Israel.

But Zionists don't get the luxury of telling those who believe in human rights what it means to stand against the wholesale slaughter of the Israeli state.

And this song is so much catchier than you jackasses can come up with.

Jews are a leading part of the American culture. Great movies, interesting in the music industry and with great contributions to literature. Israelis suck. Nothing. They have become a nation of thugs. Jews will thrive when we finally get past the degredations of Zionism.

I described some of the blatantly murderous tactics of the zionist regime of israel to somebody & he/she cited some "choice" quotes (taken out of context, of course) from the article posted below, thinking that would shut me up. When I actually located and read this FULL article I busted a gut seeing how it invalidated his/hers point that israel is the only "real democracy" that supports "free speech" in the middle east. Read it, but remember not to say anything nasty about them stellar solid citizens of the caring, giving, loving state of israel. I hear some of them are (or at least can get) great lawyers.

WHY IS IT OKAY TO HATE ISRAEL?
By Joel Bainerman


Zichron Yaacov, Israel--The Internet has done wonders for one group of people. The anti-Israel crowd. They believe it is legitimate to hate Israel and to charge Israel with committing "acts of genocide and massacre against the Palestinians."


This group is comprised of a mixture of Arabs and Americans from the far right and from the far Left, and are all united in their belief that "Israel has stolen the Palestinians lands and deprived them of their right to nationhood." They claim the Israeli government has had a "secret policy to destroy the Palestinian people going back 50 years." They charge that the state of Israel is illegitimate and should be expelled from the family of nations.


Throughout the Internet there are various discussion groups and press services catering to anti-Israel views. Arab and Palestinians intellectual along with Lefties rule these sites and bulletin boards. The norm is condemnation of Israel. The moment they don't hear that you as a contributor to the discussion aren't prepared to immediately condemn Israel for "mass brutality" and "genocide perpetrated against the Palestinians" you are immediately branded as an apologist for Israel. In other words, in their minds, Israel isassumed guilty. This is anti-Israelism.


Anti-Israelism is widespread on college campuses. The extreme Left-wingers join forces with the Arab student societies and the other Third World groups to systematically condemn Israel in university sponsored and funded forums and lectures. Year-in and year-out on US college campuses, Israel is accused of "crimes against the Palestinian people."


The yearly ritual is repeated without any complaint by even the Jewish community or the Israeli government. What if it was France that was being charged with the crime of "genocide?" The French government would immediately demand these attacks end. Unlike other Western countries, it is permissible to publicly hate Israel. Arabs and Americans who espouse anti-Israelism claim that they are not against Jews, only Israel. They don't hate Jews, they point out, they just hate Israel. These are there own words. They admit that are "anti" Israel.


Why is it okay to hate Israel? In a civilized society can it be permitted to publicly hate another country and charge its people with "genocide" and "massacres"? If such hatred was directed against the UK, Germany, Finland, Belgium or Italy these country's ambassador's would be in Washington demanding and end to the campaign of hate against the good name and reputation of their country.


Unfortunately, however, anti-Israelism has become accepted as a legitimate political expression. Forget anti-Semitism. Being anti-Israel is accepted as a legitimate political expression. In most civil societies anti-Jewish sentiments are frowned upon. Yet in those same countries it is perfectly acceptable for Arabs to express hatred of Israel.


Why is such hatred of Israel allowed to continue unconfronted?


Anti-Israel people who claim they are anti-Israel but not anti-Semitic believe they have a right to reserve their hatred just for Israel. Yet if you identify yourself as being anti-Egyptian it means you don't like the Egyptian people or the Egyptian state or both. Israel is the Jewish state and the majority of its inhabitants are Jews. Being anti-Israel means being anti-Jewish in the same way being anti the political state of India means being anti Indian people. If I am anti-France I am anti the French people. Would it be morally acceptable to say: "I don't hate the Italians, I just hate Italy?"


A public expression of hatred against another country must be confronted in the courts with libel and slander suits. The next time an article appears on an Internet site propagating anti-Israel hatred it should be the basis for legal action. No one has a right to use the public airwaves to incite hatred against another country or its people.


These expressions of anti-Israelism must be confronted. The normalization and legitimization of hatred of Israel must be arrested. It isn't permissible to hate Israel anymore than it is permissible to hate Greece, Nambia, Denmark, Japan or Brazil. Anti-Israel forums and organizations should not be allowed to so freely preach hatred against Israel. It should be a crime to preach hatred against another country or its people.


People can think anything they want. They should be able to discuss these views in a private setting. What they should not be allowed to do is to publicly express hatred towards another people or country and use a university or other public institution as arenas to spread hatred against Israel. If specific accusations are made then proof must be presented. Anytime a group or organization makes a public condemnation of another people or country they should risk facing libel and slander charges in the courts.


The right to free speech doesn't mean one can scream "fire" in a crowded theater. Accusations against another country can still be made. But they must be backed up by a reasonable amount of proof. If none is presented then those making the accusations should be sued for libel and slander and risk facing a civil suit.


This is the only way to combat the phenomenon known as "anti-Israelism." Jewish and Israeli groups throughout America need to hire lawyers to initiate legal proceedings against these anti-Israel voices. Publishing an article on the public Internet accusing Israel of charges of "massacres and genocide against the Palestinian people" would be met with an expensive court case.


This is how to confront anti-Israelism.


===============

Joel Bainerman, The Israel Technology Letter

POB 387, Zichron Yaacov, Israel, 30900

Voice: 972-6-639-6673 Fax: 972-6-639-8880

Email: isratech [at] netvision.net.il

Belgium is investigating the Israeli head of state, Ariel Sharon, for crimes against humanity during the Israeli invasion of Lebanon. It gets confusing I know, the Israelis have seized the land not just of Palestine, but every nation that borders them. But during the invasion of Lebanon, Sharon was head of the military intervention and coordinated massacres with Lebanese Christian militias in the refugee camps.

Thousands were murdered in days during what can only be called super-pogroms. So, if the above poster is down for a legal action, let's make sure the American government veto is removed and we'll let the World Court take Israel on.

It's amazing how apologists for that horror think telling the truth about Israel is a worse crime that their murder, imprisonment, torture, exile and humiliation of the original inhabitants.

Israel is occupying Palestine. European and American Jews may move there while Palestinians who old actual legal titles to land may not return.

Israel is occupying the West Bank and Gaza and packing it full of Russians who claim to be Jews and are desperate to leave the poverty and devestation of their nation.

Israel is assassinating, bombing and murdering the citizens of Palestine. Israel openly admits using torture and assassination as "tools" of state.

Israel uses F-16 fighter jets to bomb Jerusalem. They have killed hundreds in a campaign of terror. They have locked hundreds of thousands into their houses while terrorizing individual families.

Israel targets the industries of Palestine, uproots trees and destoys family houses in the land it occupies against international law.

Israel is aggression, yet claims to be defending itself. Imagine a burglar in your house claiming it was his because his great great great great (50 more greats) grandmother MAY HAVE lived in the house. You try to throw him out so he breaks the arms of your children and calls you a criminal. Unfortunately, the Sherriff is his patron. So you are homeless while the criminal makes you do his dishes.

Israel is by it's very nature a criminal enterprise and the whole world knows it.Notice how ONLY ZIONISTS defend Israel, while every human rights organization in the world not directly run by Zionists sees them as a racist state. The UN General Council, representing all the nations of the world opposes Israel.

You are alone and you will fall. All tyrannies end.

Isreal is a system of violence that maintains military occupation - and it will be met with resistance.

Sharon himself is a war criminal and has innumerable human rights violations on his record.

Poeple like him are not Jewish at all. there is nothing particularly orthodox about Zionism and yes has an elaborate and very cruel rascist discourse and language in it that is comperable to Hitlers own metaphore against us Jews

Israels government is criminal and for Jewish pesons can have a civic responsibility against that.

So to you jewish americans out there...perhaps you are so ashamed by what Israel is doing to speak out and are playing the victim.

If you really cared about other jews you would not hide this lie and you would work for change. I find that American Zionist in largely responsible for what goes on here. They fund much of the violence here but they don't actually have to live with it's consequences like i do.

"""This is the only way to combat the phenomenon known as "anti-Israelism." Jewish and Israeli groups throughout America need to hire lawyers to initiate legal proceedings against these anti-Israel voices. Publishing an article on the public Internet accusing Israel of charges of "massacres and genocide against the Palestinian people" would be met with an expensive court case.

This is how to confront anti-Israelism. """

But Israel does does conduct genocide...need more proof?


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Israeli attack kills baby girl

A baby has been killed and dozens of others injured by Israeli fire in Gaza and the West Bank after Israel rejected American ideas for ending seven months of violence.
Medical officials said the four-month-old girl, Iman Hajo, died as Israeli forces shelled Khan Younis town and refugee camp in the southern Gaza Strip.



Shrapnel went into [the baby's] abdomen and came out of her back

Hospital official in Gaza

"Shrapnel went into her abdomen and came out of her back," a doctor at Nasser Hospital in Khan Younis told Reuters news agency.

The baby's mother Suzanne Hajo, was seriously wounded in the attack and 24 others were slightly injured.

Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon said he was sorry and that Israel troops did not intend to harm children.

The death brings the number killed since September, according to some reports, to 513, of which 425 - a considerable have been on the Palestinian side.



Iman was killed by shrapnel from shell which hit her building

Meanwhile, the Israeli army kept up pressure in the West Bank, entering two more Palestinian-controlled areas and destroying a Palestinian police post at Tulkarm with bulldozers.

Eleven Palestinians were injured during an exchange of machine-gun fire.

On Sunday, Mr Sharon flatly rejected a US-led commission's plea to end building Jewish settlements on occupied land.

Mr Sharon was responding at a cabinet meeting to an unpublished report into the seven months of violence by an international team led by former American senator George Mitchell.

The Mitchell report was handed to the Israelis and the Palestinians on Friday and they were asked not to make any public comment on it for a fortnight.

Leaks

But there have been several leaks: One extract says that it will be hard to stop the violence unless all settlement building in the West Bank and Gaza Strip is frozen.

Mr Sharon said on Sunday that settlements should only be discussed "within the framework of the final status negotiations," according to Israeli radio.

Palestinians have broadly welcomed the report because of its recommendation on settlement building.

But their most often repeated demand - for a peacekeeping force to be sent to the region - is not echoed in the report, according to sources.

Rejection

Israel has rebuffed a call by Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat for a summit to discuss the findings of the Mitchell report.

Smoke rises over Beit Jala after Israeli bombardment

Responding to Mr Arafat's initiative, Israeli Foreign Minister Shimon Peres said on Saturday that such a meeting would be possible only if it was clear "what its outcome will be and how it will start".

"It cannot start while the shooting continues... Either you shoot or you talk," he told Israeli television.

Mr Arafat called for an international summit in the Egyptian Red Sea resort of Sharm el-Sheikh to discuss the report.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1317000/1317101.stm

Show some civility...people are dying

BETTER, for all the hate expressed to the arab nation, why not we think and read history first!

I think things could be better!!
I mean these words only for people with good education backgrounds, not those fresh "bio-headed" directed by media...

Check it out! It's funny, and catchy. Word is, it's not just huge in Egypt, but in Amman you hear it all the time.

Unfortunately, it gives big ups to the head of Egypt, the US government's biggest regional toady after Israel.

But still, the people love it because they are sick of the tyranny that is killing the middle east. Israel, dictators and Islam. Horrible times for really decent people.

(By the way, the opening to the song features an Egyptian girl who sounds so "valley." It's crazy funny.

"I Hate Israel" No. 1 in Egypt

"I Hate Egypt" No. 1 in Israel

"Big Ol' Jet Airliner" No. 1 in Tora Bora

the following link is an excellent class analysis of the Israeli/Palestinean conflict from the ultraleftist/marxist journal Aufheben.

http://www.wildcat-www.de/en/material/aufh10b.htm

Yeah, umm, I stumbled acros this site and said "what the h**". First off, I can understand why most Arabs hate the ISRAELI GOVERNENT. Most if not all americans are enraged about the 9/11 attacks. Now take that hatred and apply it to the Palastinians, Heck I'd hate you too if you came to my land, stole it, stole my house, my business, and life. Wouldnt you? Ohh, and by the way, if I were you ppl, I'd sit down and investigate the fact why 4,000 some Jewish/Israeli people who worked at the twin towers were missing 9/11. I mean, there is so much evidence spread around the so called "homes of the hijackers", it looks like a cheap, low budget detective movie. And as soon as this happened, that old fart Sharon called and said "Israel has the answer". Hello people, get a frikkin clue, It's a conspiracy to make a certain people look bad. Investigate it for yourselves if you dont believe me.

The "4,000" missing Israelis didn't get their page from the jewish conspiracy. This is pure nonsense. I love the mind of anti-Semites! Can you imagine how they perceive the world? That all Jews are somehow in cahoots to the point that they can receive advance notice of a massive terrorist assault by their enemies?

I was there. I lived in the neighborhood where the towers once stood and read the many "missing" posters up around the city. The names were heavily Jewish. The firm Cantor Fitzgerald that was most heavily hit was fairly Jewish. It is pure bunk of the most evil kind.

The Palestinian movement has refused to succumb to anti-Jewish rhetoric. I would hope that should teach fools like the fellow above that they are struggling for freedom, not to kill Jews.

I am a american that is shocked at israel's actions as of late.

I am also quite disapointed that President Bush has not taken a stronger stance or speaks louder against Prime Minister Sharon and continues to let him escalate this barbarism.

I believe Palestinians are pissed for a reason, and actions are taken by individuals to attack israel, and Israel attacks with brut force almost directly against civillian areas, thus inflecting casualties caused by the millitary. In any book I've read that constitutes terrorism as well. Israel is has is a very opressive governemt, just look at the map and look how the country is shaped. I hope my fellow Americans can realize that other than an nice outward modern appreance, they are nothing more than modern day nazi's.

What do I mean by marginally jewish? How about people who have never attended a synagogue in their life? People who eat pork for lunch? People who are fleeing real poverty by claiming Jewishness?

Why should a bunch of European Jews living in Israel be allowed to decide who gets to live in Palestine? That's the core of the problem nessie.

I believe in democracy of the inhabitants of a region, not a blood and land state that claims to represent one people only. The Palesinian population includes Jews, Muslims, Christians and some Druze. One person, one vote. (Unless that's too "authoritarian" for you.)

The Zionists are importing Russians to push out the Arabs. Look at the 100,000 "Jews" who've moved onto the West Bank in the last 10 years. Sharon is bombing refugees to make them leave. It's called terror. And those Russians, who have absolutely no connection imaginable to the region, are going to move in.

You are dead wrong on this one. Palesine is our Spain. We need to help. No Pasaran!

http://www.jvao.org/ http://www.jvao.org/ Jewish Voices Against the Occupation The extensive opposition within the Jewish community to Israel's 34-year long occupation of Palestine needs to be voiced boldly and loudly. We are, therefore, planning to publish an ad in the New York Times calling for: an end to the Israeli occupation of the West Bank, the Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem a complete evacuation of all the settlements a return to the pre-1967 borders. Given the urgency of the situation, we also call for: the immediate deployment of an international peace-keeping force in the occupied territories the suspension of military aid to Israel until the end of occupation. This ad will also support the lobbying efforts of Jewish advocates for peace and reconciliation between Israelis and Palestinians. Click here for the text of the proposed ad Click here to sign the ad See which Israeli peace groups endorse this ad As of February 25, 2002, 528 people have signed the ad and contributed $31,179. 435 of them sent us consent forms, agreeing that their name appear on this web site. 52 have pledged additional $2,100. Amount needed for publishing the ad in the New York Time: $37,750. www.jvao.org/

I am neither Arab nor Jewish nor a progressive nor a liberal. I am simply an American who has been watching with horror the continuing violence in the middle east. I read today that the Israeli army stormed a refugee camp and ordered every male from 15 to 60 arrested for questioning. It reminded me of the Nazi roundup of all Jews in Germany and the concentration camps in Serbia, etc.

Israel cannot truly call itself a democracy while it does offer ANY rights for 3 million people living within its borders. Furthermore, their blood-thirsty policies are not that of a egalatarian state but one of a state run by butchers. Aside from Sharon clearly being a war criminal, the policy seems to be clearly and overtly to simply inflict more casualties on the "Palestinians" than are being inflicted on Jews in Israel. They care not for children, women, or anything. It is such a disgusting state of affairs, to see a modern sovereign nation treat people on its land like animals. They have no regard for Palestinian life.

Of course the Isrealis, and their sympathisers here in the US will say the exact same thing about the Palestinians. And they have a point, except for one difference. The Palestinians are living packed together like sardines, in ghettos and slums created by the takeover of their land 50 years ago, surrouned on all sides by the Israel army. 3 million people liviing in a densely packed area with no jobs, no opportunity, no nothing. It is not the Palestinian Authority that is carrying out suicide bombings, but the disaffected and hopeless citizens. Not that it matters, the PA is not a national or sovereign government. Israel is the only government there and they act exactly like the Palestinian sucide bombers do. Isreal is like a whole nation of suicide bombers. It makes me sick to think that my tax dollars and my money goes to support this ridiculous injustice.

It is a basic case of David and Goliath. And we know who is who here.

Here's an excercise for all you Israeli sympathizers. Go get the NY Times and read one of the articles on some recent violent eruption. Now cross-out all the words "Israeli" and "Palestinian." Now, can you even tell which side is which by the content of the article? Probably not, because they're both committing the same attrocities...."______ forces killed 13 _________, including 3 children in a midnight raid today. In retaliation, _______ forces killed 18 _______, including 2 children, an infant and a grandmother. _______'s leader said "we will continue to kill them as they kill our children, in response to _____'s comment that "we will not give up until they stop killing our families, etc. etc."

The whole situation is so disgusting. My only consolation every night as I tuck myself warmly, cozily, comfortably in to bed is that Israel will not know peace until it ceases its injustice. As long as it immiserates 3 million people, runs their lives via an apartheid system, steals their water and land to build more settlements for Israeli Jews, and continues to try to colonize land that is not theirs, it will simply not know peace. Israel will suffer through the fear of suicide bombings, and rogue gunmen/snipers until it changes its way. That, is in essence, its punishment for its treatment of the Palestinians, whose land, I might add, they stole. There is almost a justice to it. The Intifada should continue until Israel starts acting like a country run by human beings. Until then, the Israelis should suffer in equal proportion to the Palestinian suffering. And this is, I think, happening now.

Right on, Alex. I also do not have background on either side but after studying the conflict while living in Israel and Palestine it became clear to me very quickly how disgusting the occupation is and how urgent it is for it to end.

You should tell your mom that you sound progressive exactly because you are acting out of moral principle and not ethnic/religious loyalty.

Wait a minute Nessie, sure the Plais are trying to defeat Israel, but why is that any better or worse than the Israelis trying to defeat the Arabs?

You make the assertion that the Israelis invaded the Palestinians and drove them off their land.

But you don't mention, you don;t even seem to question who the Palestinians invaded and drove off when they showed up in that little corner of the universe. You posted a great artice yesterday about the neanderthals who were there many years ago. The Palestinians are not the original inhabitants it seems.

But what is odd to me is that an obviously bright character like yourself couldn;t allow himself to accept that the plane that hit the pentagon disintegrated, u needed 'scientific proof', 9th grade physics be damned, yet you seem to unquestioningly swallow the 'Palestinians are natives' line that fuels the progressive line. I don;t get it.

Israel is not trying to defeat “the” Arabs. Israel is trying to defeat some Arabs. To speak of “the” Arabs in this context is racist. It is “better,” if the term can be applied to war at all, to defend oneself against aggression than to aggress. In neither case is the slaughter of non combatants justified.

-- Fair 'nuff, my bad.

>you don;t even seem to question who the Palestinians invaded and drove off when they showed up in that little corner of the universe.

They’re long dead. The Palestinians who were driven off by the Israelis are still alive, and still suffering terribly.

--Ok, so if the Israelis hold on for 100 years, drive off the palis, then no worries once they are all gone? justice as a concept only applies to what is in front of our faces?

>The Palestinians are not the original inhabitants it seems.

Neither were the Israelis. Neither were the Neanderthals. The “original” inhabitants were single celled organisms.

--hehehe. right you are.

>But what is odd to me is that an obviously bright character like yourself couldn;t allow himself to accept that the plane that hit the pentagon disintegrated, u needed 'scientific proof', 9th grade physics be damned,

I never questioned that the plane disintegrated. I questioned where it was in the security camera tape. I questioned, and still question, the enormous disparity in the degree of destruction caused by the Pentagon plane and the WTC planes. I also question the timing of the release of these films.

But mostly, I was trying to coax somebody into citing whatreallyhappened.com as a source for the debunking of a conspiracy theory. It worked swimmingly. What people here have to learn to understand is that not all conspiracy theories are the same. The official version of what really happened is also a conspiracy theory. It merits every bit as critical an analysis as does any other.

-- Ok, that works for me.

>yet you seem to unquestioningly swallow the 'Palestinians are natives' line that fuels the progressive line. I don;t get it.

They were there first. Could it be simpler? Let’s ignore ancient history and confine ourselves to the claims of people alive today.

--I disagree with you here. You are saying justice has a statute of limitations. You are saying justice extends only to those who are in front of our faces and can be elevated to 'a cause.' Who was there first Nessie? Who? The Jews and Arabs have similar genetic features. The ARabs didn;t show up until the 600's at the earliest. The Jews have historical sites and artifacts all over israel as proof they were there. Who wasa there first Nessie? The one cell creatures were. How can you claim the palis were there 'first'? What kind of definition of time are you working with here?

The Zionists came from outside, primarily from Europe and more recently Russia and America.

--And where did the Arabs come from Nessie? Your logic is skewed big time. How did Arabs get to be in Morroco..Sudan..etc. etc. There have been Jews living in Israel (what is now israel) since before JC. Many Arabs migrated into Palestine during last 150 years. Who came first, the chicken or the egg? The Jew or the Arab? The one cell creature or the 6th day?

If a bunch of foreigners invaded your homeland, slaughtered your relatives, herded you into virtual Bantustans, and treated you like dirt, what would you do?

--Since that how the Arabs got there, does it really matter, or is what matters only that one group can hold off until others' historical statute of limitations run out? Starnge principles you seem to be relying on, i don;t get it.

What really bothers me lately is the silence of the religious leaders.

Rabbis are not speaking out against the crimes of the current Israeli government. They are not standing up en masse to Sharon and demanding that he listen to the just cries of protest from the rest of the world. They are blinded by fear..

Muslic clerics are not standing up to Islamic fundamentalists and condemning violence in the name of Islam. This is a relatively recent phenomenon. The idea that Muslims could kill in the name of Islam and accuse others who refused to kill as being non-Islamic is outrageous. Yet where are the voices of a unified Muslic clergy who will speak out against blood-soaked jihad? Where are the clerics who will finally admit that Islam's current treatment of women is fundamentally sick and cruel?

Now we see our own Roman Catholic bishops called to account for crimes of sex abuse against American children, all across the nation. In reply, we hear tepid apologies from the sweating bishops, and all the while they busily try to sweep these horrific sex crimes under the carpet. Hardly anyone speaks against the Vatican's medieval repression of women and gays, its obscenely criminal opposition to using condoms in an age of AIDS, it's long violent history which continues even today wielded in its strange sexual repression of men and women alike. No one speaks out -- everyone is afraid.

I recently read an impassioned attack on Islam from an articulate Hindi here on indymedia. He called Muslims to account for their violence and said that Islamic fundamentalism had to be fought very violently; that the only way to match their virulence was to be even more virulent in response. I thought about this, and realized that. India has been living with Islamic violence for a long time, and has a pragmatic philosophy. Yet I couldn't help thinking that as much as I admire Hinduism, hardly any Hindi leader speaks out against the atrocious caste system, or the unbelieveable repression of women. In its brutal treatment of women and its silent justification of it, the Hindis are as bad as the Muslims and the Vatican.

The silence of the rabbis and the clerics and the bishops is obscene. So too is the silence of all those who consider themselves members of these once great religions. Every Catholic who refuses to speak out against the Vatican's sexual violence, every Muslim who refuses to speak out against death in the name of Islam, every Jew who refuses to speak out against the horrible violence of Sharon's government, they, too, are all complicit.

During the fall semester, the University of Colorado's Muslim Student Association was hit by vandalism and threatening phone calls. Campus police investigated it as a "hate crime." Now the campus Jewish organization, Hillel, has found its Israeli flag defaced with anti-Israeli and pro-Palestinian messages, but the cops say it's not a hate crime. "This case was just a political statement," Lt. Tim McGraw tells the Colorado Daily. "There wasn't any threat."

http://www.uwiretoday.com/campuslife031902006.html

First of all, the song is a reflection of a certain person (the song writer). It does not neccesarily illustrate the feelings of a group of people. It seems neccesary to point out that a song is mostly known for its rhythm. Like all good Arabic songs, the flair for drums and a steady pounding beat is present throughout the song. Besides, even if he hates Israel, what do u care? Go live your life and get over it. And by the way, it's not "Moslems"; it's "Muslims". Get it right. It's not as if we say "Joos" instead of "Jews", or "Kristians" instead of "Christians". I know this might seem very minor in light of what has been going on, but it just reflects on your personality as a bad speller, and thus an ignorant fool. Get your facts straight.

THE FACTS. THE FACTS . THE FACTS

Just because it is convenient for Palestinian propagandists to claim that the Palestinians are suffering "genocide" or "ethnic cleansing" doesn't make it true.

There is no Israeli policy of ethnic cleansing of genocide. The Palestinians are vastly exaggerating their casualty figures. Israel has never deliberately targeted any Palestinian civilians and yet the Palestinian homicide bombers do just that. On the contrary, it is the Palestinians whose real aim is to commit genocide on the Jews and drive them into the sea. Israel's military actions have only ever been defensive. The Palestinian atrocities against Israeli civilians have been occurring for well over 100 years. In fact there were Palestinian pogroms of Jews in 1921, 1929 and in the 30s. It was these attacks against Jews that forced Jews to arm themselves and fight back. Since these Palestinian atrocities have been ongoing for so long, it is obvious that the root cause of the conflict is Palestinian attempts to destroy any Jewish presence in the region and not any notion of "occupation" of Arab lands.

Most "progressives" on this board would support the ethnic cleansing of Jews from the Westbank which would be completely immoral. The Westbank is the cradle of Jewish culture and Jews have more of a right to live there than anyone else.

The Palestinian

Things should never go as they are going. The world is brutally murdering muslims and the whole world comunity is doing nothing except for waiting for their turn, they probably have lost their faith in The Almighty. The killings done in Palestine are unjust and must be stopped at what ever cost it may be. We must not wait. U know what we really are living for when no body wants us to live, then why not to tell them that we are as humans as they are and have the right to live as we want.
Honestly telling you that suicide attacks are really alrming for the whole world as the sucide bombers have lost the hope for their lives.

When i see a palestinian kid walking under the heavy firing and seeing people being killed infront of him, i really think what this child will do in future, as these things will make a permanent impression on his mind

Israel is hated in the Arab world because it has no right to exist in the way that it does. I am not an anti-semite, but I hate the arrogance and wickedness of the Israelis. Israel's entire history from its creation to the present day, is a catalogue of criminality and human rights abuses. Invasion and ethnic cleansing of other people's lands is a crime, and no-one cannot deny that Israel committed it. I was struck by a remarkable and ironic parallel recently; namely that Israeli actions in Palestinian territories closely mirror Nazi atrocities against the Jews in the early stages of Hitler's rule. Think about it.

What was the Karine A -- a cruiseline or one of many boats smuggling heavy weapons from Iran to the Palestinians?

An article in Slate documents that the Palestinian Security forces legally have 12,000 Kalashnikov rifles. Yet thousands of M-16s which were not legal under Oslo, machine guns and Stinger missles have turned up which certainly were not covered under the Oslo agreement. The Palestinans also have a seemingly endless stash of explosives as demonstrated by their killing power at the Passover Seder, at Sbarro, the Dolphinarium, and YES also in Jenin.


SO don't claim this is genocide -- It isn't. The Palestinians are attacking unarmed Israeli kids and senior citizens. Israel is striking back militarily against Palestinian terrorist and paramilitary forces. Big difference from the Nazis exterminating the Jews systematically and the Jews only fighting back against Nazi soldiers in the last extremity.

I guess it needs to be repeated that pro-Palestinian supporters should stop shutting down history classes and start learning from them!

if you really want to settle this, stop looking at the past. I speak to the Jews and Arabs. If you keep looking behiond you to the past, we will never reach into an agreement. We need to look ahead. What has been done is done.

In a post on this page is very strange. The headline says "Israel attack kills baby girl", as if the Israelis ment to do this. The article even says that it was an accident. But, a more recent event happened. An Arab gunman intentionally shot and killed an Israeli baby, saying that this would help free Palestine. Please tell me how that can be justified.

Zionism - a movement that promotes Jews to return to their ancient homeland of Israel.

All people of morality must not compromise with injustice and oppression. Since fighting for the basic human right to one's life, freedom, home and property is a obligation, we cannot remain passive while others are killed or expelled from their homes and their lands are confiscated for no other cause than that they are wanted by someone else. The issue is therefore not in any sense one of religious disagreement- for none whatever exists in that respect but rather a moral issue in which truth, justice and freedom from oppression are at stake.
" And I will give to you and your prosterity after you the land in which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan(Palestine) for an everlasting possession, and I will be their God.( Genesis 17:8) "
That the descendants of Abraham include Muslims as well as Jews is incontestable; therefore if the issue had really been related to and determined by God's promise reffered to in this passage from the scripture of the Jews themselves, there would be no problem. As is well known, Jews and Muslims have been living peacefully side by side for centuries in the land which God promised to the prosterity of Abraham until the Muslims were dispossessed in recent times by the establishment of Israel. Hence this claim of Zionism is simply a cover for naked aggression and the unconcealed desire for territorial expansion and conquest.
What is the meaning of Zionism exactly?

F.N.

So if there is a group of people I do not like, I can kill their children, and it would be okay because it would only be to teach the parents a lesson? Again, who said the parent of the baby was a Zionist? Also, you say it was not the baby's fault, that the baby was innocent, it was the parent's fault. Then why to you continually refer to the baby as Pig Jew? You have already said that it is not the Jews but the Zionists who you hate. So shouldn’t you be calling the baby a pig Zionist?

Please answer me the question - is it good idea to kill innocent people? Is terrorism a good idea?
I think people (if they are brave and smart) are protesting without killing kids on the discos, without blowing up their own children. Don't you think so?

Reading your comment shows that you hate Moslems and Arabs. Well, hate won't do you any good. You have no idea about history. Please read more and be fair. Moslem's culture was in an era the richest. What about the Israelies's culture? Do you have something here to talk about? You are talking about democracy, What did democracy do to the States? After the eleventh, dark skin people were taken from their homes without reason, just because of the skin color. Culture go up and down, and the Arab countries are down hill nowadays. This does not mean that it is the end. It is not of your business or the business of any others. They will overcome it and might be on the top again. Non of us will be living by then, just because this how the history is.

From your comment one can assume things were always like that, and that this situation is the cause for the current intifada. That is false - 95% of the territories were under the Palestinian Authority control when the El-Aqsa war broke out. Palestinian were hardly occupied by the Israelis, and there was a serious peace offer from the side of Israel, but the palestinians chose to force this war on Israel and now they are whining about their self inflicted misery. No suicede bombings in Israel would mean that IDF presence in the West Bank would be diminished, but there is no evidence that the palestinians want a cease fire.

95% of the territories were under the Palestinian Authority control when the El-Aqsa war broke out. Palestinian were hardly occupied by the Israelis - that is a FACT, i know Arabs hate facts, but - that's that.

Palestinians started this war - that's also a FACT - you may not like what is happening in the west bank, but that is your fault. The IDF was forced to take these (rather mild, imho) actions AFTER the renewal of suicide bombing by the 'peace loving', 'helpless' Palestinians.

You so right !
Are not all Muslims terrorists?
Do we not live by a code that is backwards?
From the time it bloomed onto history, it's single objective was to eradicate the jews. You obviously are well informed. You should write a book.
But let me ask you this. If God chose the jews to be the promised people , wouldn't that make Him a racist ? Is that what jews imply, that God is a racist?
Where are the jews that openly oppose the state of Israel? Where are the jews, who do not believe they are the chosen of God ?
Ya , i thought so !
F,N,

Oh, grow up Fieszal Nezam, the "Chosen People" is a proverb used only in ultra orthodox circles, and it's not even about being better then other people, it's about having more responsibilities than non Jews. Stop spreading you hateful lies, hate hasn't made Palestinian life better - only worse.

There is no ancient homeland of Israel.
Israel was created in 1947 based upon the seminal pamphlet, "Der Judenstaat ", by Theodore Herzl in 1896.
Zionism , at it's heart, rejects assimilation. Zionisms' fundamentalist warped rationale is a "profound despair that anti-semitism could not be eradicated as long as jews lived among gentiles." -Herzl's own words. Out of this dark vision came the belief that the only hope for the survival of the jews lay in the foundation of their own state.
In 1918, David Lloyd George became prime minister of Great Britain and Arthur James Balfour, foreign secretary. Both were friends of Louis Dembitz Brandeis, who was an American and a jew, who favoured Herzls' zionist view and joined with his own understanding of early America , linked zionism with the early New England Puritans, declaring that " zionism is the Pilgrim inspiration and impulse all over again. The decendants of the Pilgrim fathers should not find it hard to understand and sympathize with it." To the jewish audiences he said: " To be good Americans, we must be better jews, and to be better jews, we must become zionists." ( So the Mitzvot ,is really about what it is to be a jew.)( Did Abraham, Isaac, Moses or Joshua ever perform the Mitzvot ?)
( Brandeis was appointed to the Supreme Court, 28 - Jan. 1917 )
At this point ,behind the scene actions ( it always is ) of a Russian born jewish chemist living in Britain became pivotal. He was Chaim Weizmann, who enjoyed easy access to both Lloyd George and Balfour, sought a backdoor ,past the State Department to the White House via Brandeis. On the 8th of April 1917, Weizmann cabled Brandeis. One month later, following America's entry into WW 1, Brandeis had a 45 minute meeting with Pres. Wilson.
Lloyd George, Balfour,Weizmann and Brandeis, used their position during WW1 to influence a pre -occupied Wilson, to declare through a drafted statement, endorsing a homeland in Palestine. Wilson declined.
A second letter was sent ( from the British Foreign Office) to Wilson and was turned over to Brandeis for his comments . The Justice ,and his aids redrafted it in slightly stronger and cleaner language, substituting " the jewish people" to " for the jewish people ". Colonel House sent the revision onto Wilson. Thus , in the most off-handed way, Wilson lent the enormous weight of the United States to supporting the zionist cause.
Palestine, it turned out ,was not even the first choice for this new state. Britain's post war goals in dividing up the Ottoman Empire, including the ambition of taking over Palestine as part of Britain's security zone for protecting the Suez Canal, the lifeline to it's colony in India. The jews ,used Britain's desperation and America's distracted predicament ,to issue a supported statement to help their situations.
It came on 2nd of November 1917, when Britain issued the fatefull statement that was to become known as the Balfour Declaration. It was infact ,a personal letter from Foreign Secretary Balfour to a prominant British jew, Lionel Walter, the second Lord Of Rothchild.
The rest, is history.
So , zionism has nothing to do with Judaism, but jews are told to believe that to be a better jew, you have to support zionism. Hmmmmmmm!!!!
F.N.

David Lloyd George and Arthur James Balfour gained their posts in 1916.
Brandeis was appointed on Jan. 28 1916.
sorry.
F.N.

Genesis 17 : 1 - 10
Deuteronomy 21 : 15 - 17
Galatians 3 : 16 - 23
Galatians 4 : 30 - 31
Are you all so blind ? Or do you just , not want to admit to it and continue to propogate lies ?
F.N.

If Hitler killed Jews and Europeans feel guilty about it then give them half of Germany not Palastine.The promise of land is to the biological seed of prohhet Ibrahaim not the white convert from Europe.Only 13% of jews in Israel are biological jews,87% are there to protect America's millitary base. WAKE UP PPL!

This will probably be my last post on the site. I have to say that most people (On either side of the debate) on this site make me sick with their outright lies, and perversions of truth. But wait, for in about 15 years, if peace is not yet achieved, it will be then. Remember the name, TruthBringer...




Long live the Earth and the human race.

In the end, we will conserve only what we love,
We will love only what we understand,
We will understand only what we have been taught.

This is the most bizzarre allegation I ever saw. How can anyone claim with any veracity that 87% of Jews are not biologically Jewish but only to protect the American military base? Apparently conspiracy theorists are carrying the day on indy media.

Anyone have the full english lyrics to this song? I can't find them on the web anywhere. I'm grooving to it though.

I can't find the lyrics but here is an interesting article on the band that has some of the lines:

http://www.cairolive.com/newcairolive/dardasha/shaaban.html

Here is one:
"I hate Israel and I'll say so if I'm asked even if it costs me my life or I get arrested."

You're antisemitic, he's antisemitic, they're all antisemetic... what a sham! I once witnessed two jews hurl insults at each other, one stopped and declared the other an antisemite (god-bless his little soul), because he finally proved how the term is made -up, loud and pointless nonsense. :) It has no bark or bite its completely toothless like calling someone a republican... or humanitarian ...big deal!
A person can put it in a personals ad:
32 white, christian, female, I enjoy the night life, dancing the night away....I don't smoke.... i'm against abortion.... oh yeah I am devoutly antisemetic. call me :)
I simply I can't wait to see what happends to the israelis next... Praise God the vanquisher of the synagouge of satan and his bloodthirsty seed!

I hate the israeli state and i hate when they talk about the palestinians not wanting peace. who cares about peace when their land is being invaded by jews. They r building settlements in palestininan terroritys. And they are illegal and the american gov dont want to see peace in the middle east they are supporting the israeli gov with more military power I hate the white house.

What a waste of my time even reading that crap about taking to court anyone who hates Israel and publicly announces it!

Is this the most absurd thing written or what? Maybe ten year olds should be taken to juvenile court everytime the yell "I hate you mommy!" too.

It is about time the Palestinians had a homeland, I know Jordan is made up of Palestinians (70%) but how could they live in a country called Jordan right it’s just not right. After all it’s not like in 1947 the UN offered Palestinians a home sate, (almost 50% of Israel). But no the dumb Palestinians chose war, could the great Arabic armies of Allah defeat the holocaust survivors armed only with their own wit. Nope they got there asses kicked, like in 1967, 73, 81 and …. well lets just say every time an Islamic army has fought against a western army in the last 300 years. (Yes these people are truly that pathetic). But what about the Palestinians uprooted in and resettled in 1947, well that is a sad part of life, (just as sad as the Jews living in Arab countries who were uprooted and forced to flee during 1947) But luckily for the Jews, there people resettled them and made them a home in their new country. (Unlike the Arabs who treated there refugees like outcasts, refused to allow them to settle and forced them to live in refugee camps. (refugee camps with apartment complex’s running water and hydro, some refugee camp, if only the real refugee’s had it so well). Why is this? Because Palestinians are noting more than pawns, used by their own so called Arab allies as an excuse for the need to wipe Israel into the sea. Remember after all it’s not like the armies of Allah will be doing that any time soon.

Really hate to confuse you all with some facts:

1.
“Iraq has been under attack for ten years with genocidal sanctions on it that have resulted in the deaths of around two million people (700,000 of which were children).”
In its oil for food program the UN enab