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Chicago and Palestinian death rates are similar
by StatsBoy
Thursday Mar 3rd, 2005 3:16 PM
Before the Palestinian intifada, you were much safer in the West Bank or Gaza than in Chicago (Illinois). And even during the intifada, it's close.
FACT: Anti-Israel bias around the world likes to make it seem like Palestinians are being "wiped out." Which is laughable.

The fact is, before the Palestinians began their intifada, you were much safer in the West Bank or Gaza strip than you were in downtown Chicago or Detroit.

But, even DURING the intifada -- a period of time when Palestinian terrorist organizations threw away all chances for peace and trust and spent every day trying to blow up Jewish Israelis -- the actual numbers are comparable.

In year 2003: (SOUCE: http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/01/01/city.murders.ap/ )
Chicago had 599 killed. NYC had 596 killed. Los Angeles had 500 killed.

NYC + Chicago + LA = 1695 dead in a year, a TYPICAL year for those cities.

By comparison, something like 3000 or so palestinians have died in FOUR YEARS in the palestinian territories during the MANIAC INTFADA TERRORIST SHIT that PALESTINIANS started and refused to ever stop.

3000 / 4 year "intifada" = 750 dead a year.

In other words, even during the palestininian intifada, only 150 more people (on average) die in the palestinian territories DURING THE CURRENT WAR than in CHICAGO in a REGULAR YEAR.

So, think about it. There are literally thousands of anti-Israel organizations that work day and night LYING to everyone claiming that the Palestinians are beiing "genocided" or "wiped out."

The fact is, in 2003, an estimated 750 Palestinians died, yet 600 people died in CHICAGO, a city with HALF THE POPULATION.

So, even during the intifada, in year 2003, you were safer in gaza or the west bank than in CHICAGO.

Some "GENOCIDE," huh?

When Jews were genocided in Europe, they went from 6 million to zero.

Palestinians being "genocided" apparently means they're SAFER THAN NORMAL PEOPLE IN CHICAGO. HAH.

And, BEFORE the intifada, it wasn't even close. It was far more dangerous in Los Angeles, Detroit, Chicago or even the "safe" New York City than in the Palestinian areas.

Israelis, meanwhile, ahve to be scared every day that when they get on a bus or sit in a restaurant, they may blow up. Imagine having to live like that. Imagine being afraid every time you enter a public area, sit down for a bite to eat, try to go hear some live music, or ride the bus to work each day.

BOTTOM LINE: IF palestinians, and their "supporters," ever gave up the "Israel has no right to even exist, attack Israel, no justice no peace" shit and actually wanted a peaceful existence ALONGSIDE Israel, instead of on top of Israel, there would probably be NO deaths at all.

by Joe
Thursday Mar 3rd, 2005 3:16 PM
In year 2002: (source: Chicago Tribune: http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/chi-0301160232jan16,1,6102697.story?coll=chi-newsopinion-utl )

Chicago had 646 people killed. Los Angeles had 653 people killed ( http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/West/04/28/california.crime.ap/ ).

So, about 1,300 dead in 2002 in Chicago + Los Angeles.

In 2002 in the Palestinian territories, despite nonstop daily Palestinian terrorist attempts against Israel, there were under 1000 killed.

So, in PEACETIME in America, more people died in Chicago + LA than in INTIFADA TERRORIST time in the Palestinian territories.
by Joe
Thursday Mar 3rd, 2005 3:17 PM
In year 2001:

Detroit had 396 killed ( http://www.detnews.com/2005/metro/0501/04/C01-49213.htm )

Chicago had 665 killed ( http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/chi-021215homicideseries,1,5299514.story?coll=chi-newsopinion-utl )

So, in year 2001, more people were killed in Detroit + Chicago in peacetime than in the Palestinian territories DURING INTIFADA.
by ?
Thursday Mar 3rd, 2005 3:35 PM
What was the death rate in S Africa under apatheid? What about the death rate in Tibet or N Korea?

The initifada isnt a fullscale war as one sees in Iraq or Chechnya but that doesnt mean that Palestinians dont suffer under an occupation that treats them as second class Israeli citizens with no voting rights etc.. Chicago has a population higher than the West Bank and Gaza so pointing out that inequality and violence in the US is as bad as Israeli attacks on Palestinians in the occupied territory doesnt mean much. Per population the number oif homeless people who die every year is more than the number of Bosnians killed by the Serbs during the worst days of the wars there but one wouldnt use this as an excuse for killings of civlians.
by Joe
Thursday Mar 3rd, 2005 3:39 PM
You just lied.

Palestians do have voting rights. They just voted for their leader, Abbas.

Israeli citizens, whether Jewish or Arab, also have voting rights in Israeli elections.

The fact that you need to lie to try to make your point says a lot about you and the alleged point you're trying to make.
by Joe
Thursday Mar 3rd, 2005 3:41 PM
You also said that Chicago has a higher population than the West Bank and Gaza, and THAT TOO IS A LIE.

Chicago has a population of under 3 million.
Source: http://chicago.areaconnect.com/statistics.htm
Source 2: http://www.chipublib.org/004chicago/timeline/population.html
(Chicago Public Library)
Source 3: http://www.suntimes.com/census/cities/citysize/
(Chicago Sun-Times newspaper).

Chicago has almost HALF the population of the West Bank + Gaza Strip.

Any more points?
by Joe
Thursday Mar 3rd, 2005 3:44 PM
Anyway, I didn't say Palestinians have a "wonderful life."

I didn't say there aren't problems.

I am merely pointing out that there are problems, but Palestinians are not being "genocided" or "wiped out" or any other such nonsense.

And, I contest that if the war of terrorism against Israel ever ended, no Palestinians would die at all.

The fact is, more Palestinians died due to attacks from King Hussein of Jordan about 20 years ago IN ONE MONTH than in 20 years due to Israel.

30 years of supporting the PLO was a bad mistake. They're lucky to still be around.

And 4 years of supporting Hamas and Islamic Jihad blowing up Jews on line to get into nightclubs and on buses, etc. is also not helpful at all.

If I won land in war, I certainly woudln't give it to people who spend 50 straight years attacking you. Would you?


by um
Thursday Mar 3rd, 2005 4:17 PM
" Chicago has almost HALF the population of the West Bank + Gaza Strip. "
Are you looking at the city proper or the entire area where those murder stats were calculated from?

If you look at SF its much smaller than the Palestinian population in the West Bank and Gaz but if you look at the Bay Area the population here is quite a bit higher than in Palestine.

As for voting rights, voting for a government that isnt the one that controlls the police that rule over one isnt exactly voting for the real government. Until the West Bank is treated as a seperate country and not a part of Israel proper where Israel can build homes for settlers and protect them as if its part of the country, Palestinian elections are local elections but Palestinians are denied a vote in the actual government that rules over them.
by Chicago
Thursday Mar 3rd, 2005 4:40 PM
OK, I get the message....Israel, in order to steal land from Palestinians, use tanks, missiles, snipers, etc. to kill men, women and children.... but not to worry...

because more die in Chicago. Right? Did I get it right? So, like Chicago, we shouldn't call it "genocide", just call it "murder".
I guess, that makes it OK?
by Joe
Thursday Mar 3rd, 2005 6:01 PM
Hey "Chicago" (above),

I didn't say anything was "ok" about murder.

You appear to speak with your _emotions_ instead of your brain.

Your knee-jerk response was laughable.

I did not say that murder or violence is "ok."

I merely pointed out the _FACT_ that anti-Israel loons around the world _EXAGGERATE_ to make it seem like the poor innocent, sweet, lovable Palestinians are being wiped out.

They aren't.

As for land, most land changed hands in full wars between Arab countries (who controlled the land) and Israel. Sorry, Israel won the wars and kept the land used to attack Israel.

If Palestinians ever stop the "We must destroy Israel" crap, that's when Israel can perhaps hand some land over to them. The longer Palestinians pull the "kill the israelis" crap, the less land there may be available to them.

Also, do you find it strange that Jordan, Syria and Lebanon do _NOT_ offer their beloved Palestinian "brothers" citizenship?

Try responding with your brain, not with exaggerated, emotion-based nonsense.
by Joe
Thursday Mar 3rd, 2005 6:06 PM
To "um,"

San Francisco is San Franciso.

The "Bay Area" is obviously bigger.

I posted the exact populations for the _CITY OF CHICAGO_ as stated by one of their major newspapers and their public library system websites.

My only point is, you should look at the _THOUSANDS_ of websites that make it seem like the Palestinians are being "slaughtered" and "wiped out" and _WONDER_ why so many people _INTENTIONALLY LIE_ to demonize Israel more than Israel deserves.

The Palestinians are in a crap situation, but it's due to their own terrorism just as much as it is due to Israel. It's also due to the Arab countries that surround the area doing everything possible for 50 straight years not to use the Palestinians as pawns in the war against Israel.

Yet, the fact is, Israel isn't wiping the Palis out, despite the claims of literally thousands of DISHONEST "peace" organizations around the world that just have a hard-on for EXCESSIVELY demonizing Israel.
by American Taxpayer
Thursday Mar 3rd, 2005 8:10 PM
Dear Senator Byrd:

I want to commend you on calling a spade a spade in the Senate when you say that the Republicans are Hitlerite fascists. I absolutely agree.

Other Hitlerite fascists include the American Israeli Public Affairs Committee, the Anti-Defamation League, and the Jewish Defense League. They are woking hand in glove with President Bush's fascist police state.

I would strongly suggest that you bring impeachment proceedings against Mr. Bush for the war crime of aggression.

With regard to the Israeli problem, which results in $5-$10 billion of American taxpayer funds hijacked to commit programmatic genocide, structural violence, child torture, a mass imprisonment system, confiscation of acquifers, and many many other humanitarian atrocities, we must be firm.

A good place to start would be to:

1. stop all government funding of Israel

2. declare AIPAC and violent organizations such as the ADL and JDL as foreign agents and terrorist cells.

3. Discontinue the tax deductibility of American Jewish contributions to Israel;

4. Submit a resolution promoting the passage of sanctions against Israel by the United Nations General Assembly in accordance with the International Convention on the Suppression and Punishment of the Crime of Apartheid of 1976.

5. Discontinue the allowance of dual citizenship in Israel for American Jews. This action will help make sure that the Mossad is not carrying out atrocites in our neighborhoods; and finally but most importantly,

6. Pass new legislation that will outlaw Political Action Committees negating the SUN-PAC decision of 1975. This unfortunate decision has resulted in the formation of 50 virulent terrorist Jewish and Republican-controlled PACs that have caused our country to be turned into a fascist police state where all citizens have lost key constitutional rights.


Thank you for your consideration of this matter, your continuing support for democratic principles and the Constitution of the United States of America.

Signed:

Society for the Prevention of Apartheid

World Council of Churches

The Presbyterian Church of the USA

Citizens for resurrecting our US Constitution

256,456 signature petition attached




by mark
Thursday Mar 3rd, 2005 10:23 PM
Palestine: 4035 homicides (2000-09-28 thru 2005-02-04) / 3,634,585 people / 4.36 years * 100,000 people = 25.46 homicides per 100,000 people

Puerto Rico: 790 homicides (2004) / 3,894,855 people / 1 year * 100,000 people = 20.28 homicides per 100,000 people

Chicago: 447 homicides (2004) / 2,869,121 people / 1 year * 100,000 people = 15.58 homicides per 100,000 people

Los Angeles: 511 homicides (2004) / 3,819,951 people / 1 year * 100,000 people = 13.38 homicides per 100,000 people

New York: 571 homicides (2004) / 8,085,742 people / 1 year * 100,000 people = 7.06 homicides per 100,000 people

Israel: 958 homicides (2000-09-29 thru 2005-02-07) / 6,631,100 people / 4.36 years * 100,000 people = 3.31 homicides per 100,000 people
by Joe
Friday Mar 4th, 2005 12:21 AM
Mark says over 4000 palestinians have died in the intifada, but the reported number is more like 3,500.

Mark says there are only 3.6 million people in gaza and the west bank, but it's more like 5-6 million.

So, mark's numbers are bullshit.

But, FOR THE FUN OF IT, let's pretend that mark's numbers are right. That means it's only slightly more dangerous to live in teh west bank and gaza than it is to live in PUERTO RICO.

Is there a "genocide" or "holocaust" going on right now in Puerto Rico? I DON'T THINK SO!

And, BEFORE the palestinians began their intifada, it was SAFE to live in the west bank and gaza. Some "genocide!" HAH.

So, why are there thousands of websites and "peace" activist groups around the world who act like the palestinians are being "slaughtered" and "exterminated?" THEY AREN'T.

They are living in territories that Israel has control of, and that stuff needs to be resolved (hard to do while israel is under nonstop attack), but that's the valid part of the problem. I'm just calling for the EXAGGERATED, ANTI-ISRAEL BULLSHIT to _CEASE_.


by Joe
Friday Mar 4th, 2005 12:25 AM
Also, if palestinians were being "genocided" and "holocausted" and "slaughtered" it would be something like 7,000 out of every 100,000 or so, with Puerto rico like 20 out of 100,000.

But the fact that the numbers are so close (though again, mark's numbers are off) proves there's no fucking "genocide."

If 90 or 280 palestinians start dying each day in needless slaughter for a while, you let us know. Then we'll call it "genocide" and put a stop to it.

Thanks.

P.S. Tell your palestinian buddies that 50 years of terrorism against israel isn't helping them.

And ask jordan, syria and lebanon why they refuse to give their palestiniain "brothers" citizenship.
by mark
Friday Mar 4th, 2005 1:00 AM
Murder of palestinians by Israeli occupiers is just part of the problem, there is also the illegal military occupation, police state, refugee camps, curfews, road blocks, check points, house demolitions, etc. which is by most (all?) measures a bit worse than even U.S. cities. Anyways, the CIA World Fact Book reports population of palestinian territories of 3,636,195; citypopulation.de reports 3,634,585 (not "5-6 million").
by Sefarad
Friday Mar 4th, 2005 1:41 AM
"Murder of palestinians by Israeli occupiers is just part of the problem, there is also the illegal military occupation, police state, refugee camps, curfews, road blocks, check points, house demolitions, etc. which is by most (all?) measures a bit worse than even U.S. cities."

Israelis are no occuppiers since they are occupying nothing (see UN resolutions).

Israel is not "murdering Palestinians" but defending itself from Palestinian terrorists.

Curfews, roadblocks, checkpoints, etc. are part of the defensive system.

by ANGEL
Friday Mar 4th, 2005 2:17 AM
>>>And ask jordan, syria and lebanon why they refuse to give their palestiniain "brothers" citizenship<<<

Because their place of residence is in the West Bank and Gaza, not in Jordan or Syris or Lebanon.

The West Bank and Gaza is Occupied by Israel, why doesn't Israel either give them citizenship or let them be free in their own State in the West Bank and Gaza?
by angel is a racist - Janine Garofalo
Friday Mar 4th, 2005 2:33 AM
angel is a racist - Janine Garofalo
by Joe
Friday Mar 4th, 2005 4:47 AM
ANGEL,

Israel can't hand land to people who want to destroy Israel.

Israel can hand land to people who want peace next to Israel.

For 50 straight years now, terrorism against Israel has never fully stopped, and the "destroy Israel" campaign has never ended, either. In fact, many leftists who pretend to be "peace" activists support the "destroy Israel" campaign.

by Joe
Friday Mar 4th, 2005 4:54 AM
Mark, according to:
http://www.palestinercs.org/crisistables/table_of_figures.htm

3,500 Palestinians have been killed.

Which means it's probably more like 3,000. Or 2,500.

But even if it's really 3,500, that's a lot lower than what you posted.

It's quite telling that even during the intifada, PUERTO RICO is about as safe as the West bank and Gaza.

BEFORE the intifada, the west bank and gaza were much safer than puerto rico, chicago, detroit, los angeles, etc. Almost no one was dying.

I feel sorry for Israelis who have to fear for their lives every day when they get on a bus or go hang out at a club. Terrorism is a horrible thing.

As for checkpoints and stuff like that, Palestinians have spent 50 years terrorizing Israelis. If they don't want checkpoints and security checks and stuff, maybe they need to stop attacking israel. If Israel was run by arab muslims, they'd probably have _SMOKED_ the palis by now, king hussein style.
by Critical Thinker
Friday Mar 4th, 2005 5:14 AM
Mark and Joe -- the Palestinian death toll in the present intifada is 3,000-3,600.

Joe -- the Palestinians in the disputed territories now number some 3,700,000. The Jews total about 400,000. Altogether, these populations total 4,100,000 at most.



P.S.: the petition signed by the Presbitarian Chuch (among others) is antisemitic.
by Sefarad
Friday Mar 4th, 2005 6:22 AM
">>>And ask jordan, syria and lebanon why they refuse to give their palestiniain "brothers" citizenship<<<

Because their place of residence is in the West Bank and Gaza, not in Jordan or Syris or Lebanon. "


Jordan is occupying 80% of which should be the Palestinian state.

" Jordan is occupying 80% of which should be the Palestinian state. "

What does that even mean? ALL the borders in the region are arbitrary and not really linked to anyting historical. Israel is at issue because many Palestinians lost physical homes in what is now Israel justa few decades ago. The West Bank and Gaza are issues because Palestinian refugee's from Israel and Palestinians who have just stayed in the same place trying to mind their own business are have been living in territory annexed by Israel but have no real rights as citizens in Israel and have to deal wih checkpoints and road blocks mean to protect settlers.

No amount of arguing is going to make Palestinins suddenly ok with being ocupied. It doesnt help Israelis or Palestinians to try to pretend there isnt a fundamental problem with occupation thats driving the violence in the region

Suicide bombings and ythe like are problems too but if the point of such things is to disrupt the peace process making them an issue plays into the hands of those carrying them out. For the mots part the issues in the region are hatred, hardships and injustice and the violence is a symptom; the numbers listed above pointing out that the number of actual deaths on all sides isnt that high coimpared to other war zones should make this clear.
by Critical Thinker
Friday Mar 4th, 2005 7:26 AM
Here we go again with this ill-thought and unjustified fixation on Israel and its culpability in creating the Palestinian problem. Never mind that the "Palestinians" and Arab states were the main culprits in creating that plight and that the Jordanian occupation of 1948-1967 still leaves some marks on the complexities of the situation of the Palestinians in Judea-Samaria. The above poster, presumably Blech (an editor), omits Arafat's guilt in perpetuating many Palestinians' refugee status and worsening the overall Palestinian poverty conditions so he could gain political and propaganda points in his non-ending terror campaign against Israel, and more. Also the PA's present shortcomings and misdeeds are left out.

Furthermore, obviously not all Palestinians until the Six Day War were just "minding their business". Some were hard at work trying to murder and main Israeli citizens within Israel proper to the best of their ability.

Moreover, 1948's events are now irrelevant more than ever from the standpoint of bettering ordinary Palestinians' lives within the disputed territories.

The claim being made that the checkpoints and roadblocks are meant solely to protect Israelis in the disputed territories cannot be accorded credibility. The majority of the activity carried out by the personnel manning them is designed to prevent terror attacks within Israel proper.

>>>"No amount of arguing is going to make Palestinins suddenly ok with being ocupied. It doesnt help Israelis or Palestinians to try to pretend there isnt a fundamental problem with occupation thats driving the violence in the region"<<<

Au contraire, the faster most of the Palestinian violence ceases and the quicker Abu-Mazen opens an ongoing resolute crackdown on Palestinian terror, the sooner Israel will be able to end its control over the Palestinians' lives.

>>>"Suicide bombings and ythe like are problems too but if the point of such things is to disrupt the peace process making them an issue plays into the hands of those carrying them out."<<<

As far as I can judge, Israel has been demonstrating remarkable restraint vis-a-vis the latest terrorist attacks so as to enable the current PA leadership a fair chance at getting its act together and giving it a chance to begin imposing order in the territory under its jurisdiction.

>>>"For the mots part the issues in the region are hatred, hardships and injustice and the violence is a symptom;"<<<

Correct. The unprovoked violence emanating from the Palestinian side is a symptom some Israeli imposed hardships, but for the most part it's due to all the indoctrination to violence and hatred the young Palestinian generations have received.
by Sefarad
Friday Mar 4th, 2005 9:54 AM
"No amount of arguing is going to make Palestinins suddenly ok with being ocupied."

Palestinians are not being occupied (see UN resolutions).

Weren't they attacking Israel and always breeching accords, they would have had their own state for many years now.
by Sefarad
Friday Mar 4th, 2005 10:05 AM
"ALL the borders in the region are arbitrary and not really linked to anyting historical. Israel is at issue because many Palestinians lost physical homes in what is now Israel justa few decades ago. "

The borders for the Arabs states were decided by the UN.

And why is Israel the issue and not Syria or Jordan, which killed many more Palestinians than israel?

And why aren't Arabs the issue, when they massacred Jews who were living in their land many times?

Which homes did the Palestinians lose? The houses demolished because they belonged to terrorists?
by ANGEL
Friday Mar 4th, 2005 10:50 PM
>>>Which homes did the Palestinians lose? The houses demolished because they belonged to terrorists?<<<

Anyone who knows the History of the region know that in the late 1800's there were less then 80,000 (this number is probably on the high side) Jews in the area that is known Today as Israel, West Bank and Gaza, at that same time there was a much higher Arab population (both Muslim and Christian) in the Area. The 5,000,000 or more Jews that are there now did not just pull the land they live on out of thin air......

A little common sense and reasoning please....

>>>Jordan is occupying 80% of which should be the Palestinian state.<<<

This area is now the Country of Jordan, The People of Jordan live there, inside those borders.

The West Bank use to be part of Jordan,
The West Bank is now occupied by the Israeli Government.
Most of the Palestinian's who live there today were born and have lived all their lives in the West Bank, some while it was part of Jordan and other since thery were born there after 1967.

The Palestinians do not want the West Bank to be part of Jordan again, They just want to be free from the Brutal Israeli Occupation and Oppression.

Therefore the Road Map to Peace which calls for the Viable Palestinian State in the Whole of the West Bank and Gaza.

Sefarad...I know you are intelligent, so surely you know these very simple facts about the situation.

As far as the Generous Offer made by Israel....I posted it on that other site. Maybe I will try to Post it on this site (but it might become hidden).

As far as the death of some Israelis go...it is sad and wrong, but the death of Palestinians out number the death of Israelis at least 3 to 1......to end all the deaths simply end the Occupation.....
To end the resistance to the Occupation you have to end the Occupation that allows for the resistance….





by then go bother Jordan!
Saturday Mar 5th, 2005 12:14 AM
Jordan is occupying 80% of which should be the Palestinian state
by Sefarad
Saturday Mar 5th, 2005 12:21 AM

You know that always there has been a peace accord, the Palestinians have breeched it. They only want to kill Israelis.
by ANGEL
Saturday Mar 5th, 2005 5:28 AM
>>>Which homes did the Palestinians lose? The houses demolished because they belonged to terrorists?<<<

Anyone who knows the History of the region knows that in the late 1800's there were less then 3,000,000 (this number is probably on the high side) Arabs in the area that is known Today as Israel, West Bank and Gaza, at that same time there was a much smaller Arab population (both Muslim and Christian) in the Area. The 5,000,000 or less Arabs that are there now did not just pull the land they live on out of thin air......

A little common sense and reasoning please....

>>>Jordan is occupying 80% of which should be the Palestinian state.<<<

This area is now called the Country of Jordan, The People of Jordan, including a 78% majority of Palestinians now live there, inside those borders.

The West Bank use to be occupied by Jordan,
The West Bank is now under the supreme control of the Israeli Government.
Most of the Palestinians who live there today were born and have lived all their lives in the West Bank, some while it was occupied by Jordan and other since they were born there after 1967.

The Palestinians do not want the West Bank to be part of Jordan again, They just want to be free from the Israeli Control and Oppression.

Therefore the Road Map to Peace which calls for the Viable Palestinian State in the Whole of the West Bank and Gaza in return for a complete halt of Palestinian incitement and Terror.

Sefarad...I know you are intelligent, so surely you know these very simple facts about the situation.

As far as the Generous Offer made by Israel....I posted my lie on that other site. Maybe I will try to Post my Lie on this site (but it might become hidden).

As far as the death of some Israelis go...it is sad and wrong, but the death of Palestinians out numbers the death of Israelis at least 3 to 1 for several good reasons......to end all the deaths simply end Palestinian Terror.....
To end the resistance to the Occupation it is not even enough to end the Occupation that ostensibly allows for the resistance….
by Sefarad
Saturday Mar 5th, 2005 6:13 AM

Why didn't the Palestinians asked for their independence then, when that land was occupied by their Arab and Muslim brothers?

by ?
Saturday Mar 5th, 2005 8:32 AM
"Why didn't the Palestinians asked for their independence then, when that land was occupied by their Arab and Muslim brothers? "

Could it be because being occupied by a people who distinguish themselves from you by their religion makes you feel more oppressed than being in a state that has few rights but mistreats everyone more equally?
by Sefarad
Saturday Mar 5th, 2005 8:51 AM
That was not the reason. The reason was that there was not Palestinians then.
by ?
Saturday Mar 5th, 2005 9:07 AM
If you are implying that many people who now call themselves Palestinians may have thought of themselves as Jordanians before their land became occupied by Israel I wouldnt doubt that in some cases thats true. Buts its all really a word game. The occupation is a physical reality, it cant be argued away by defining those living in dehumanizing conditions away as not existing. Palestinians call themsleves Palestinians now. If those living under Israeli military occupation called themselves Jordanians it wouldnt make the occupation any better. It wouldnt be the truth (since many never had ancestors with Jordanian citizenship since they were refugees there too) and it wouldnt justify ethnic cleansing by kicking the nonJewish population out of the West Bank. Most of the population of the West Bank only knows Israeli rule (because they were born into occupation), many not in refugee camps have parents and grand parents who lived in the same villages and feel a tie to the land that extends beyond identies defined by the Ottomans, the British Mandate and Jordan/Israel.
by Sefarad
Saturday Mar 5th, 2005 11:42 AM
They considered themselves Arabs, and that's it. The only thing is that after they failed several times to push the Jews to the sea, they started calling themselves "Palestinians" so that to harass the Israelis.
by ANGEL
Sunday Mar 6th, 2005 1:49 AM
Almost Everyone Everywhere refers to the Palestinian People as Palestinians.....Even in the Road Map to Peace, the State that we are trying to achieve is Palestine for the Palestinian People.

There were no Israelis before 1948, because there was no Modern day State of Israel before 1948.

The Palestinians can call themselves Palestinian because the West Bank is no longer part of Jordan, so they are not Jordanians. The Palestinians in Gaza can call themselves Palestinians because they are no longer part of Egypt.

Jordan has its own border and its own People and has had since 1967, more then long enough that the People in the West Bank do not need to be known as Jordanians.

If we want Peace we have to look at the facts on the ground Today......That is why Peace is so hard to achieve, because we do not want to look at things the way they are right Now....

4,000,000 or so Palestinians want their Viable Palestinian State call for in the Road Map to Peace on a small 22% of what is Today (facts on the ground) Israel, West Bank and Gaza. That would leave 78% of the land inside Israel Proper (pre 1967 (Green line)) border.

Let us Give Peace a Chance.

4,000,000 People in Palestine (22%)
6,000,000 People in Israel (78%)

Do the math....Who gets the most land per person.

Not to much to ask for Peace and the end to this Occupation and Oppression that is causing many deaths.
by Do the math....
Sunday Mar 6th, 2005 3:27 AM
why do you kill
by ANGEL
Sunday Mar 6th, 2005 4:33 AM
Almost Everyone Everywhere refers to the Palestinian People as Palestinians.....Even in the Road Map to Peace, the State that we are trying to achieve is Palestine for the Palestinian People.

There were Israelis before 1948, wvwn though there was no Modern day State of Israel before 1948.

The Palestinians call themselves Palestinians although there is not yet a State of Palestine and because the West Bank is no longer occupied by Jordan, they are not Jordanians although many still have Jordanian citizenship. The Palestinians in Gaza can call themselves Palestinians because they are no longer occupied by Egypt.

Jordan has its own Border and its own People including a very big Palestinian Majority and has had since 1967, more then long enough that the People in the West Bank do not need to be known as Jordanians.

If we want Peace we have to look at the facts on the ground Today......That is why Peace is so hard to achieve, because I do not want to look at all things the way they are right Now....

3,700,000 or so Palestinians want their Viable Palestinian State call for in the Road Map to Peace on a small 22% of what is Today (facts on the ground) Israel, West Bank and Gaza. That would leave 78% of the land inside Israel Proper (pre 1967 (Green Line)) Border.

Let us Give Peace a Chance.

4,000,000 People in Palestine (85%)
6,000,000 People in Israel (15%)

Do the math....Who gets the most land per person.

Not too much to ask for Peace and the end to this Murder and Destruction that is causing many deaths.
by Prof
Sunday Mar 6th, 2005 9:31 PM
Is there a link between the way Israel's case is presented and anti-semitism? Israel's advocates protest that behind criticisms of Israel there sometimes lurks a more sinister agenda, dangerously bordering on anti-semitism. Critics vehemently disagree. In their view, public attacks on Israel are neither misplaced nor the source of anti-Jewish sentiment: Israel's behaviour is reprehensible and so are those Jews who defend it.
Jewish defenders of Israel are then depicted by their critics as seeking an excuse to justify Israel, projecting Jewish paranoia and displaying a "typical" Jewish trait of "sticking together", even in defending the morally indefensible. Israel's advocates deserve the hostility they get, the argument goes; it is they who should engage in soul-searching.

There is no doubt that recent anti-semitism is linked to the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. And it is equally without doubt that Israeli policies sometimes deserve criticism. There is nothing wrong, or even remotely anti-semitic, in disapproving of Israeli policies. Nevertheless, this debate - with its insistence that there is a distinction between anti-semitism and anti-Zionism - misses the crucial point of contention. Israel's advocates do not want to gag critics by brandishing the bogeyman of anti-semitism: rather, they are concerned about the form the criticism takes.

If Israel's critics are truly opposed to anti-semitism, they should not repeat traditional anti-semitic themes under the anti-Israel banner. When such themes - the Jewish conspiracy to rule the world, linking Jews with money and media, the hooked-nose stingy Jew, the blood libel, disparaging use of Jewish symbols, or traditional Christian anti-Jewish imagery - are used to describe Israel's actions, concern should be voiced. Labour MP Tam Dalyell decried the influence of "a Jewish cabal" on British foreign policy-making; an Italian cartoonist last year depicted the Israeli siege of the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem as an attempt to kill Jesus "again". Is it necessary to evoke the Jewish conspiracy or depict Israelis as Christ-killers to denounce Israeli policies?

The fact that accusations of anti-semitism are dismissed as paranoia, even when anti-semitic imagery is at work, is a subterfuge. Israel deserves to be judged by the same standards adopted for others, not by the standards of utopia. Singling out Israel for an impossibly high standard not applied to any other country begs the question: why such different treatment?

Despite piqued disclaimers, some of Israel's critics use anti-semitic stereotypes. In fact, their disclaimers frequently offer a mask of respectability to otherwise socially unacceptable anti-semitism. Many equate Israel to Nazism, claiming that "yesterday's victims are today's perpetrators": last year, Louis de Bernières wrote in the Independent that "Israel has been adopting tactics which are reminiscent of the Nazis". This equation between victims and murderers denies the Holocaust. Worse still, it provides its retroactive justification: if Jews turned out to be so evil, perhaps they deserved what they got. Others speak of Zionist conspiracies to dominate the media, manipulate American foreign policy, rule the world and oppress the Arabs. By describing Israel as the root of all evil, they provide the linguistic mandate and the moral justification to destroy it. And by using anti-semitic instruments to achieve this goal, they give away their true anti-semitic face.

There is of course the open question of whether this applies to anti-Zionism. It is one thing to object to the consequences of Zionism, to suggest that the historical cost of its realisation was too high, or to claim that Jews are better off as a scattered, stateless minority. This is a serious argument, based on interests, moral claims, and an interpretation of history. But this is not anti-Zionism. To oppose Zionism in its essence and to refuse to accept its political offspring, Israel, as a legitimate entity, entails more. Zionism comprises a belief that Jews are a nation, and as such are entitled to self-determination as all other nations are.

It could be suggested that nationalism is a pernicious force. In which case one should oppose Palestinian nationalism as well. It could even be argued that though both claims are true and noble, it would have been better to pursue Jewish national rights elsewhere. But negating Zionism, by claiming that Zionism equals racism, goes further and denies the Jews the right to identify, understand and imagine themselves - and consequently behave as - a nation. Anti-Zionists deny Jews a right that they all too readily bestow on others, first of all Palestinians.

Were you outraged when Golda Meir claimed there were no Palestinians? You should be equally outraged at the insinuation that Jews are not a nation. Those who denounce Zionism sometimes explain Israel's policies as a product of its Jewish essence. In their view, not only should Israel act differently, it should cease being a Jewish state. Anti-Zionists are prepared to treat Jews equally and fight anti-semitic prejudice only if Jews give up their distinctiveness as a nation: Jews as a nation deserve no sympathy and no rights, Jews as individuals are worthy of both. Supporters of this view love Jews, but not when Jews assert their national rights. Jews condemning Israel and rejecting Zionism earn their praise. Denouncing Israel becomes a passport to full integration. Noam Chomsky and his imitators are the new heroes, their Jewish pride and identity expressed solely through their shame for Israel's existence. Zionist Jews earn no respect, sympathy or protection. It is their expression of Jewish identity through identification with Israel that is under attack.

The argument that it is Israel's behaviour, and Jewish support for it, that invite prejudice sounds hollow at best and sinister at worst. That argument means that sympathy for Jews is conditional on the political views they espouse. This is hardly an expression of tolerance. It singles Jews out. It is anti-semitism.

Zionism reversed Jewish historical passivity to persecution and asserted the Jewish right to self-determination and independent survival. This is why anti-Zionists see it as a perversion of Jewish humanism. Zionism entails the difficulty of dealing with sometimes impossible moral dilemmas, which traditional Jewish passivity in the wake of historical persecution had never faced. By negating Zionism, the anti-semite is arguing that the Jew must always be the victim, for victims do no wrong and deserve our sympathy and support.

Israel errs like all other nations: it is normal. What anti-Zionists find so obscene is that Israel is neither martyr nor saint. Their outrage refuses legitimacy to a people's national liberation movement. Israel's stubborn refusal to comply with the invitation to commit national suicide and thereby regain a supposedly lost moral ground draws condemnation. Jews now have the right to self-determination, and that is what the anti-semite dislikes so much.

· Emanuele Ottolenghi is the Leone Ginzburg Fellow in Israel Studies at the Oxford Centre for Hebrew and Jewish Studies and the Middle East Centre at St Antony's College, Oxford
by ANGEL
Monday Mar 7th, 2005 12:14 AM
>>>4,000,000 People in Palestine (85%)<<<if you include Jordan the number is much greater then 4,000,000>
>>>6,000,000 People in Israel (15%)<<<

ANGEL imposter is wrong.......
Joran has its own population that is greater then 4,000,000.
The 4,000,000 is the number for the People living in the West Bank and Gaza and the West Bank and Gaza is much much less then 85% of what is Today Israel, West Bank and Gaza...As a matter of fact that anyone interested in the region knows West Bank and Gaza is 22% of what is today Israel West Bank and Gaza.

ANGEL imposter you make yourself look like an idiot...therefore it easy to tell you from the real ANGEL

The Palestinians can call themselves Palestinian because the West Bank is no longer part of Jordan, so they are not Jordanians. The Palestinians in Gaza can call themselves Palestinians because they are no longer part of Egypt.

Jordan has its own border and its own People and has had since 1967, more then long enough that the People in the West Bank do not need to be known as Jordanians.

If we want Peace we have to look at the facts on the ground Today......That is why Peace is so hard to achieve, because we do not want to look at things the way they are right Now....

4,000,000 or so Palestinians want their Viable Palestinian State call for in the Road Map to Peace on a small 22% of what is Today (facts on the ground) Israel, West Bank and Gaza. That would leave 78% of the land inside Israel Proper (pre 1967 (Green line)) border.

Let us Give Peace a Chance.

4,000,000 People in Palestine (22%)
6,000,000 People in Israel (78%)

Do the math....Who gets the most land per person.

Not to much to ask for Peace and the end to this Occupation and Oppression that is causing many deaths.

by Angel
Monday Mar 7th, 2005 1:00 AM
where did you get these numbers ? and this stupid green line is pure fabracation. not one ounce of truth
by ANGEL
Monday Mar 7th, 2005 4:54 AM
>>>4,000,000 People in Palestine (15%)<<<if you include Jordan the number is much greater then 4,000,000>
>>>6,000,000 People in Israel (85%)<<<

ANGEL imposter is wrong.......
Joran has its own population that is greater then 4,000,000.
The 4,100,000 or so is the number for the People living in the West Bank and Gaza and the West Bank and Gaza is much much less then 100% of what is Today Israel, Jordan, West Bank and Gaza...As a matter of fact that anyone interested in the region knows Israel Proper is 14% of what is today Israel, Jordan, West Bank and Gaza.

ANGEL imposter you are an idiot...therefore it easy to tell you from the real ANGEL

The Palestinians call themselves Palestinian because they want to, so they are not Jordanians even though many still have Jordanian passports. Also the Palestinians in Gaza call themselves Palestinians because they want to.

Jordan has its own border and its own People of which a great Majority consists of Palestinians and has had since 1967, more then long enough that the People in the West Bank do not need to be known as Jordanians.

If we want Peace we have to look at the facts on the ground Today......That is why Peace is so hard to achieve, because the ANGEL imposter has lots of trouble looking properly at the way things are in the Present....

3,700,000 or so Palestinians want their Viable Palestinian State call for in the Road Map to Peace on a small 22% of what is Today (facts on the ground) Israel, West Bank and Gaza. That would leave 78% of the land west of Jordan inside Israel Proper (pre 1967 (Green line)) Border.

Let us Give Peace a Chance...

More than 4,000,000 People in Palestine (85%)
6,000,000 People in Israel (15%)

Do the math....Who gets the most land per person.

Not too much to ask for Peace and the end to this Murder and Destruction that is causing many deaths.
by Thailand killed 78 muslim protesters
Monday Mar 7th, 2005 3:31 PM
The ire that has swept through the Muslim world since Buddhist Thailand's crackdown on peaceful demonstrators in its underdeveloped southern region last month is understandable given the circumstances: 78 Muslims in Tak Bai district suffocated to death when 1,300 protesters were stuffed into police trucks for more than six hours.

In neighboring Malaysia, condemnation has been more vocal than elsewhere. The atavistic Parti Islam SeMalaysia (PAS) called the incident "a Holocaust of the modern era", while former Malaysian premier Mahathir Mohamad compared the region's unrest to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and urged Thailand to grant autonomy to Thai Muslims. A popular state-controlled daily said the Thai government now "surpasses Israel's record of aggression" against Muslims.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/FK13Ae05.html
by ANGEL
Tuesday Mar 8th, 2005 12:06 AM
>>>and this stupid green line is pure fabracation. not one ounce of truth<<<by ANGEL imposter>

Everyone who is interested in Peace in the Middle East knows that the green line is the pre 1967 border between Israel and the West Bank. Why do you think they always mention the Green line when they talk about the wall/fence/barrier Isreal is building inside the West Bank instead of on its official borders the Green Line?
The West Bank is not Part of Israel Proper. The Palestinian People in the West Bank and Gaza do not have the same rights as the Jews and Arabs inside Israel Proper.


Facts are Facts and facing them is the only way to use reason and common sense to achieve Peace.

Almost Everyone Everywhere refers to the Palestinian People as Palestinians.....Even in the Road Map to Peace, the State that we are trying to achieve is Palestine for the Palestinian People. Until Israel excepts the fact that the Palestinian People are there in the West Bank and Gaza, and that they deserve to be free, just like what they want for themselves Peace cannot be achieved.

There were no Israelis before 1948, because there was no Modern day State of Israel before 1948.

The Palestinians can call themselves Palestinian because the West Bank is no longer part of Jordan, so they are not Jordanians. The Palestinians in Gaza can call themselves Palestinians because they are no longer part of Egypt.

Jordan has its own border and its own People and has had since 1967, more then long enough that the People in the West Bank do not need to be known as Jordanians.

If we want Peace we have to look at the facts on the ground Today......That is why Peace is so hard to achieve, because we do not want to look at things the way they are right Now....

4,000,000 or so Palestinians want their Viable Palestinian State call for in the Road Map to Peace on a small 22% of what is Today (facts on the ground) Israel, West Bank and Gaza. That would leave 78% of the land inside Israel Proper (pre 1967 (Green line)) border.

Let us Give Peace a Chance.

4,000,000 People in Palestine (22%)
6,000,000 People in Israel (78%)

Do the math....Who gets the most land per person.

Not to much to ask for Peace and the end to this Occupation and Oppression that is causing many deaths.



by ANGEL
Tuesday Mar 8th, 2005 5:29 AM
>>>and this stupid green line is pure fabracation. not one ounce of truth<<<by ANGEL imposter>

Everyone who is interested in Peace in the Middle East knows that the green line is the pre 1967 Border between Israel and the West Bank. Why do you think they always mention the Green line when they talk about the wall/fence/barrier Isreal is building inside the West Bank instead of on its non-official border the Green Line?
The West Bank is not Part of Israel Proper. The Palestinian People in the West Bank and Gaza do not have the same rights as the Jews and Arabs inside Israel Proper.


Facts are Facts and facing them is the only way for me to use reason and common sense to achieve Peace.

Almost Everyone Everywhere refers to the Palestinian People as Palestinians.....Even in the Road Map to Peace, the State that we are trying to achieve is Palestine for the Palestinian People. Until all Palestinians except the fact that the Israeli People are there in Israel Proper and the West Bank, and that they deserve to be free, just like what they want for themselves, Peace cannot be achieved.

There were no Palestinians before 1977, because they were not a people before the post-Modern day times.

The Palestinians can call themselves Palestinian because they want to, so they are not Jordanians and Egyptians.

Jordan has its own Border and its own People that is greater then 4,000,000, including a great Majority of Palestinians has had since 1967, more then long enough that the People in the West Bank do not need to be known as Jordanians. The 4,100,000 or so is the number for the People living in the West Bank and Gaza and the West Bank and Gaza is much much less then 100% of what is Today Israel, Jordan, West Bank and Gaza...As a matter of fact that anyone interested in the region knows Israel Proper is 14% of what is today Israel, Jordan, West Bank and Gaza.

If I want Peace I have to look at the facts on the ground Today......That is why Peace is so hard to achieve, because I do not want to look at things the way they are only right Now....

3,700,000 or so Palestinians want their Viable Palestinian State call for in the Road Map to Peace on a small 22% of what is Today (facts on the ground) Israel, West Bank and Gaza. That would leave 78% of the land inside Israel Proper (pre 1967 (Green line)) border.

Let me Give Peace a Chance.

More than 4,000,000 People in Palestine (85%)
6,000,000 People in Israel (15%)

Do the math....Who gets the most land per person.

Not to much to ask for Peace and the end to this Palestinian Murder and Destruction that is causing many deaths.

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