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U.S.-trained Thailand death squads go on. 1000's dead. Drug war and more. Akha Foundation.

by eco man
The Killing Fields of Thailand. Very latest info from Thailand. Many still being killed. U.S. continues training and funding. People being killed randomly. With complete impunity. No justice system. Some historical background included in this info, too.

Here is latest info on U.S.-trained Thailand death squads. Please forward this widely. Edit in any way.

Message below was in reply to this message sent to several lists:
Drug War feature page. Portland, Oregon Indymedia. No sheep need apply!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cannabisaction/message/848

----------------

Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 02:03:11 -0700 (PDT)
From:  Matthew McDaniel
Subject: Re: [cia-drugs] Drug War feature page. Portland, Oregon Indymedia. No sheep need apply!
To: "eco man"

Yes, noted it and replied to it.
 
Thanks for the tip.
 
Matthew

The Akha Heritage Foundation
PO Box 16
Maesai, Chiangrai, 57130 Thailand
Donations by check or money order may be sent to:
The Akha Heritage Foundation
PO BOX 6073
Salem OR 97304 USA Inquire to donate while in Thailand

-----------------------

-----------------------

Here is the Matthew McDaniel reply to a Portland Indymedia article that he is referring to in the message above:
http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2003/03/46977.shtml

------Reply begins------

Valki has understated the case 28.May.2003 02:01

Matthew McDaniel        "" akha@akha.org
 
Valki has understated the case. There have now been more than 2274 people murdered and if you think the Chinese Haw did this you need hooks for ears so you can pull your head out of your ass.

Having lived here and worked in the drug corridor for more than 12 years with the Akha hill tribe I can say that Thailand's government is one of the most brutal in the world. The fact that they use prostitution as an opiate on the foreigners to keep their eyes closed is not missed.

Extra judicial murders of hilltribe people is common, I document them regularly and am in constant contact both with UN personell and individuals of foreign governments. The web site www.akha.org has the pics of only a few of these brutal murders.

If you are here to get laid or get your ass tatooed you need read no further.

Brutal oppression forces many Akha girls and other hill tribe girls into prostitution to keep their families alive.
Most foreigners avail themselves of these means while ignoring what put these girls there. Conditions their daughters will never live under.

Men and women have been shot in bed, shot out of their vehicles, shot so many times they lost their skulls and bowels.

A person doesn't have to be in Thailand for a long time or take a friggin thai cooking class to know what is going on here.

Any seasoned traveler should be able to see in a moment.

A witness against Thaksin's income tax evasion (Shin Sat) was murdered.

Murder with guns is common place here over most disputes. Most cases are never investigated and never solved.

The police arrest, make up a report, doesn't matter if you can disprove it, full of lies, it flies, and no one, the judge, no one, questions it. The courts are a joke, justice is a joke in Thailand.

I have hilltribe coming to my house daily complaining of false arrest, abuse, murder. A Lahu woman was stopped at the checkpoint near my house. The soldiers took her away to play, killed her with a knife.

Yesterday, the forestry arrested eight hill tribe for the federal crime of Thailand. 50,000 baht bail. One was a 19year eight month pregnant woman. Farming her corn.

They beat, burn, cut, and decapitate people. There is no one to appeal to.

You should know what the hell your are talking about before you open your friggin mouth. Valki understated the case.

The US White House Office on National Drug control Policy administrator Mr. Crane in January promised Thailand more funds for doing a great job. The killing was started in February. Once again, American Trained personell including Task Force 399 of Mae Rim Chiang Mai.

Were the funds cut? No, just this rubbish about disapproval. Cobra Gold also went on as usual.
The government admits it got hundreds of the wrong people.

Where were you, eating yogurt on Koh Sahn Road?

No more morons please,

Matthew McDaniel
Maesai, Thailand, The Akha Heritage Foundation
 
"" http://www.akha.org
"" 66-1-884-8111
"" Po Box 16, Maesai, Chiangrai, Thailand 57130
 
-----Reply ends------
 
----------------------------
 
An email from Matthew McDaniel to the CIA-drugs list.
 
 
From:  Matthew McDaniel <akha@a...>
Date:  Wed May 28, 2003  4:12 am
Subject:  Akha Journal: War Against Farming, UN Envoy: Climate of Fear Thailand NGO's

 
Dear Friends:
 
A number of important comments.
The UN Envoy Ms. Hina Jilani with whom I met on Saturday has the following report on Thailand's treatment of human rights workers under the Thaksin Government.
 
War Against Farming:
 
Day before yesterday I was called by Lahu and Akha villagers to try and help rescue their family members from a band of wilding Forestry Soldiers.  The incidents occurred at 12 noon when three trucks grabbed hilltribe women and men from along the road side fields, some just eating lunch, and took them to a forestry center to make them sign "confessions" and then on to Ampur Mae Faluang Jail where the Ampur and Police all claim they know nothing of nothing that goes on in the Ampur, just run the buildings.  8 Villagers were seized for the crime of farming no less, fields they have farmed for years, weeding their knee high corn.  Four women, four men.  Most of them young, young people not selling drugs, this is a crime too in Thaksin's Thailand.  One woman of 19 is eight months pregnant and has already spent her second night in jail for being a farmer.  The undesireable bastard at forestry who is responsible for these SS like tactics is Mr. Hoh Nah Gkay Gkah.  He was the same fellow who tried to deceptively force the relocation of Huuh Mah Akha and in fact, some of these arrested were a few of those who did relocate from Huuh Mah Akha and were only working their promised fields, fields Mr. Hoh Nah Gkay Gkah promised them.  But this is the new war on dark forces in this country.  After two days of negotiating the Ampur congratulated himself that any of these young people could bail themselves out for 50,000 baht.  A very large sum for a foreigner, let alone a hill tribe person where wages are 400 and 500 baht a month.  More than $1,000 US. 
   Since no one could afford that they would all be taken to the Chiangrai Prison where just waiting for a court date is over one year.
   If a hilltribe person has 10,000 baht the army or police assume they have been selling drugs and take it away from them.
   I don't know how many of you follow this list, but if you go back in the archive you will see that there is an endless line of abuse aimed at the Akha and other hilltribe by the Thai government.
  We would recommend that all international cooperation or aid have linkage to human rights in Thailand.
 
Incident 26 May, 2003
At the villages of Huuh Yoh, Huuh Yoh Pah Soh, Huuh Yoh Lisaw and Loh Lay villages.
Arrested for the high crime of farming their corn:
 
1. Mr. Ah Soh Cheh Muuh 38 Loh Lay village, Akha
2. Ms. Meeh Purh Rgoeuh Zurh 19, Huuh Yoh Akha Village, 8 months pregnant.
3. Ms. Shoh Furh Sheh Dzaw, 28, Huuh Yoh Lisaw
4. Ms. Ah Leh Seh Leeh, 25, Huuh Yoh Lisaw
5. Ms. Nah Myoh Seh Leeh, 30, Huuh Yoh Lisaw
6. Mr. Loh Hah Murh Leh, 17, Huuh Yoh Pah Soh Akha
7. Mr. Ah Poh Yeh Saw, 17, Huuh Yoh Pah Soh Akha
8. Mr. Leeh Sauh Byurh Cheh, 30, Huuh Yoh Pah Soh Akha
 
I would recommend, that as in the past, you contact your Thai Embassy and complain specifically about this incident with the forestry department in Ampur Mae Faluang, Chiangrai Province, Thailand.
 
As well I am recommending any boycott of Thai goods and restaurants for the duration.
 
Matthew McDaniel"photo
 
 

HUMAN RIGHTS: UN envoy cites climate of fear

Published on May 28, 2003

Government-sponsored harassment and intimidation of human-rights defenders and NGOs has diminished Thailand's reputation and impeded its progress in the areas of democracy and human rights, according to a UN special envoy on human rights.

Hina Jilani yesterday wrapped up a 10-day visit to the Kingdom during which she held talks with Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra and other senior cabinet members, as well as human-rights activists.

"I have sensed a level of insecurity among human-rights defenders which ranges from general unease to actual fear," she said.

Jilani also interviewed NGO representatives and travelled to Songkhla and Chiang Mai provinces to meet officials, human rights activists, environmental groups and villagers.

She said a "climate of fear" was created by public statements against NGOs made at the "highest level of government", by blatant state attempts to cut off their foreign funding and by the use of the state security apparatus and judicial process to harass human-rights defenders through false or unjust prosecution.

Jilani was apparently referring in part to a security advisory from Thaksin that suggested the Foreign Ministry should try to stop foreign funding of NGOs in Thailand.

"I am deeply concerned about an attempt to interfere with NGO's access to foreign funding. I am told that the Interior Ministry instructed the Foreign Ministry to approach the donors with a request not to fund the NGOs," she said.

"I must remind the government that the foreign funding is from the international co-operation and such a thing can only be seen as an obstruction to human rights."

The UN envoy said Thaksin informed her that these actions were not in line with government policy. She said the situation could seriously affect Thailand's reputation as a democracy and a protector of human rights.

Jilani gave examples of the government's harassment and intimidation of those using their freedom of _expression to protest.

She singled out legal action taken against protestors of the Thai-Malaysia gas pipeline project after the police last year used force to stop them from demonstrating in Songkhla's Hat Yai district. Protestors and police were injured in the incident.

In Hat Yai, the envoy was told how state security forces used excessive force to stop people using their freedom of protest.

Jilani said she was also deeply concerned about the intimidation of NGOs and journalists by the Anti-Money Laundering Office, which was secretly assigned to scrutinise their finances.

She cited a published statement by a Senate Committee charged with investigating the activities of NGOs and human-rights defenders.

In the statement, the committee detailed the money each NGO received from foreign sources. It named human-rights activists and implied they received foreign money to campaign against the government.

Human-rights activists told the envoy that they were working in an atmosphere of fear, particularly those campaigning against government-supported projects.

Jilani said she was "deeply concerned" about a public statement which linked NGOs to "the mafia" and described their activities as having "dark influences."

Jilani said she had not looked into the government's three-month war on drugs, in which more than 2,000 people were killed by police, but said it was difficult to give credibility to the government's explanation that police killed those people in self-defence.

She said it did not seem possible that there was no connection between the alleged killings and the practises of the security forces.

The envoy felt the level of openness and tolerance in Thailand seemed to be diminishing.

"Obviously the message is that the [Kingdom's] reputation is under threat. Nevertheless, I think the damage is still limited," she said.

Her recommendations and conclusions would be included in a UN report due to be released in the coming months.

There should be immediate measures put in place to ease the climate of fear, Jilani said, adding improvements were needed to provide better protection for human-rights activists.

Marisa Chimprabha

The Nation




The Akha Heritage Foundation
PO Box 16
Maesai, Chiangrai, 57130 Thailand
Donations by check or money order may be sent to:
The Akha Heritage Foundation
PO BOX 6073
Salem OR 97304 USA Inquire to donate while in Thailand
 
------end of forwarded email--------
 
----------------------------
 
-----Portland Indymedia article below that started it all-----
 
 
newswire article
http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2003/03/46977.shtml

Police State Terror in Thailand

I am a Portland activist that has been traveling in Southeast Asia for around three months. Recently in Thailand, the Prime Minister with the military elite who run the country have declared an open war against "drug dealers." This war has turned into a terror campaign that has already left over a 1000 people murdered by special police/military death squads, just within a weeks time. There are police and military checkpoints everywhere, searching for the people on the "death list." The military command of Thailand has just closed down the INN news service due to its reporting of the murders.
As I was traveling through the Golden Triangle, which is in the north of Thailand and in the border area that it shares with Burma and Laos, public transportation was being harrassed due to numerous police and military checkpoints. I personally experienced this, with the buses that I took to get around from city to city, were being stopped various times by special police and military units. At first, I reached to show them my passport, but it seemed that they were more concerned with the local bus riders. Apparently, they had a list of people to detain. I saw a few detainees on the sides of the roads. I thought of what might have happened to them.

Now I can only think the worse: murder. The news has come out, especially in the Bangkok Post and in INN (International News Network) with stories of the police and military in their war against Methamphetamine sellers. So far, the number of victims in this terror campaign has reached to over a 1,000 deaths - within only a weeks time! The campaign has included an insiduous ploy of declaring an amnesty for some of the sellers and then murdering them in prison. There have also been attacks on people's homes and then assassinating all the adults of the house. The Bangkok Post even showed a photo of a young girl after discovering her parents murdered in their own home.

The Prime Minister and the military elite who run this country and have been known to be some of the worst Heroin dealers in the world. They were first involved in the drug trade through the US government supported KMT drug lords(anti-Chinese Communist units) around Burma in the 50s and 60s; and then later through the US government's CIA front of Air America during the Indochina conflict in the 60s and 70s. In Thailand, the law means nothing: the exception is the will of bribery and extortion. The semi divine King of Thailand has been mysteriously quiet during these disturbances. Now the streets are filled with police and military units that are making many foreigners nervous. The last military coup d'etat was in 1993. The other day, the military junta closed the INN news service declaring its journalism "a crime against the Nation"; consequently, censorship is in order for all news and media outlets in Thailand. Due to this new information blackout, it is quite necessary that concerned travelers in Thailand report on these dangerous times.

Thailand has recently been in a severe Asian economic crisis; meanwhile, the corruption has gotten worse. Extreme Capitalism has taken a toll on the people. The streets are by the day more scattered with beggars, indigent victims and children selling flowers and candy; there is no social safety net here. Nevertheless, the IMF, WTO and the World Bank have declared Thailand to be an "economic giant" of Asia. Thailand does have a history of severe repression. In the 1970s there was a University student movement that was savagely repressed with around 3,000 unexplained murders by CIA trained military death squads. This story is once again being repeated.

------end of Portland Indymedia article that started it all--------

---------------------

Portland Indymedia drug war page:
http://portland.indymedia.org/en/topic/drugwar/

--------------------

Is this the future of our own "War on Drugs"? May 7 2003 Associated Press (AP) article on Thai killings.
http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2003/05/264281.shtml

2,274 dead in Thai drugs crackdown
Wednesday, May 7, 2003 Posted: 7:00 AM EDT (1100 GMT)

<snip>

----end of AP excerpt----

---------------------

You can reply to any of the articles posted at the Portland Indymedia site. Comments are posted with the articles.
http://portland.indymedia.org

------------------

*Terrorism of USA. Death Squads, Drug War. LINKS worldwide. Revised. Millions killed over decades. Mostly US-run or US-aided terrorist death squads worldwide. Other death squads, too. Today's death squads, and older ones such as the US-run Phoenix Program during the Vietnam war. Terrorism and corruption at all levels of politics, police, society, media, business, unions, government, etc.. Lists in alphabetical and chronological order. Huge LINKS list. 
http://www.angelfire.com/rnb/y/squads.htm and  
http://members.fortunecity.com/multi19/squads.htm 

--------------------



MMM. Million Marijuana March. 236+ cities globally.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cannabisaction
1.3% of Texas adults imprisoned!
4.8% in jail, prison, probation, or parole!
666 Texas leads the world! Texas is EVIL! ;)
Texas = state-sponsored drug-war terrorism!
Remember Tulia, Texas!
Please distribute widely.

Add Your Comments

Comments (Hide Comments)
by eco man
http://www.akha.org has photos of murdered people. With info. Please distribute widely. The death squads kill people for many reasons such as the drug war, etc.. Often for no reason at all. Thousands killed in the last few months. Without trials. With impunity. Also read:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cannabisaction/message/849

---------------

----Forwarded message begins-----

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cia-drugs/message/5146

From: Matthew McDaniel <akha@a...>
Date: Thu May 29, 2003 1:35 am
Subject: What you can do to help the Akha who are being killed

Dear Friends:

Below is the link to the web page of Senator Leahy, Vermont.

He passed a bill making any aid to a foreign country for security purposes or drug war contingent on their human rights record and specifically in the case of gross human rights violations. No clearer case can be presented than the slaughter of suspects that has just occurred back to back with the Gulf War here in Thailand.

Please look over the Akha Journals once more and then send a letter of concern but also demand that Senator Leahy investigate these killings. Recommend that he visit http://www.akha.org to see the stated cases.

Matthew McDaniel
http://leahy.senate.gov/contact.html


The Akha Heritage Foundation
PO Box 16
Maesai, Chiangrai, 57130 Thailand
Donations by check or money order may be sent to:
The Akha Heritage Foundation
PO BOX 6073
Salem OR 97304 USA Inquire to donate while in Thailand

-----end of forwarded message-----

------------------
akha.org - Drug War and the Akha.
http://www.akha.org/humanrights/drugwar/drugwar.htm

A version of the above web page is also archived here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cannabisaction/message/851
by Scottie
The Drug war in Thailand is Prime minister Thaksan's plan. Thaksan is in nobodies pocket that is why he is giving drug deallers hell he also plans on giving CD pirates and gangs the short stick also.
Thaksan by the way is VERY rich (although he gave most of it away so that he could be president) he is you might say the uncorruptible president.

You might be able to argue that he is wrong or inhumane (although the majority of thai that I have talked to see him as a man who is finaly strong enough to stand up to the gangs drug dealers etc.) but he is not a pawn of the US nor a pawn of global capitalists or anyone else you might care to suggest.

That you seem to be suggesting this just you are uneducated or irresponsible.
by Matthew McDaniel (akha [at] akha.org)
Thaksin Original Sin?

So you are telling us that Thaksin is copying the sins of no one before him?

Jeez, what are they feeding the public out there these days.

Are you telling me that they systematically killed drug dealers? Why are there so many left then, particularly in the police, army, politicians and rich merchants?

Thaksin is owned by no body, well neither is the Devil. Thaksin didn't give his money away by the way, which was never taxed, he "loaned" it to his son and maids, people who he owned for all practical purposes, this aught to be transparent enough.

He has stifled every institution set up by the new constitution, including those investigating him for being unusually rich.

A man who was a testimonial witness against Shin Sat, the family business, was murdered near my house at Doi Maesalong. No more witness.

Although the drugs flow from Burma, Thaksin forbid Army commanders to use the "hot persuit" law to chase the runners and attack the labs. Had something to do with big satelite deals with Burma.

So instead it is taken out on the hilltribe in a random hateful order. It doesn't make Thaksin a hero because he doesn't follow the rule of law.

In nobody's pocket, well, he's promoted nearly every relative into a high position, passing over many other people. He is daily accused of rigging the law and the running of government to benefit all his businesses while passing populist policies that probably are not sustainable.

Authorizing the killing of 2274 people, he has yet to authorize the killing of one drug running cop and there are plenty. Why the double standard.

Chavilit was called "Mr. White Powder" by the DEA it is said.

He may not seemed to be owned by anyone other than his own selfishness and greed. He has done little to stop the corruption in Thailand and the suffering of the poor. He has stomped on NGO's, repeatedly badmouthed them, and failed to investigate the most corrupt sector of Thai society, the police.

As well he has yet to address farmer indebtedness like he promised, and the root causes of poverty and drug use, which has a lot to do with the rich poor gap, chiefly the gap between all his buddies and the slaves that work for them.

Furthermore, whatever his beliefs or policies, he is not above the law, he is not above moral law, and he has not the right to stand by while the people of his country are abused of their human rights.

What about the hundreds who were butchered by accident? Will he or you feed their children and comfort them when they come to realize that dad is gone forever?

Cowards from afar,

Matthew McDaniel
by Scottie
Are you telling me that they systematically killed drug dealers? Why are there so many left then, particularly in the police, army, politicians and rich merchants?

-- there are ALOT of drug dealers. to everyone else - if you think the US is bad you have no idea.

Thaksin is owned by no body, well neither is the Devil.

-- as i said you can say he is mistaken in his policy if you wnat he just isnt owned by the USA. he is trying to offeryou a solution to your problem. a little bit of pain now for a better life later.

Thaksin didn't give his money away by the way, which was never taxed, he "loaned" it to his son and maids, people who he owned for all practical purposes, this aught to be transparent enough.

- - it is hard to own someone who has a billion odd dollars. anyway the main point is he has enough money to be unbribable.

He has stifled every institution set up by the new constitution, including those investigating him for being unusually rich.

- it is thailand.. we all know you dont get unusually rich without a little back scratching. there is noone who could be president who is not guilty of some of that.

Although the drugs flow from Burma, Thaksin forbid Army commanders to use the "hot persuit" law to chase the runners and attack the labs. Had something to do with big satelite deals with Burma.

-- either that or burma getting pissed off about breaches of its soverignty. Thaksan may have absolute power in thailand but its prudent not to pretend he has it in burma also.

So instead it is taken out on the hilltribe in a random hateful order.

- he just told the police that they need to catch some drug dealers (you cant do anything else with a police force that is that corrupt) and they did.

Authorizing the killing of 2274 people, he has yet to authorize the killing of one drug running cop and there are plenty. Why the double standard.

- dont givethe impresion that he said oh here is a village of 2274 people lets kill them. he said "catch some drug dealers" I am pretty confident that vast majority of the 2274 were drug dealers of some sort . Oh yeah and some of them were drug dealers killing drug dealers to cover their tracks etc.

He may not seemed to be owned by anyone other than his own selfishness and greed. He has done little to stop the corruption in Thailand and the suffering of the poor. He has stomped on NGO's, repeatedly badmouthed them, and failed to investigate the most corrupt sector of Thai society, the police.

-- one thing at a time. A) the poverty issue is unsolvabe witout general economic growth so that is a long term issue
B) Corruptionin the poliece - you cnat tackle that at the same time as dealing with drugs etc and anyway again this is a almost unsolvable problem.
C) NGO ngo try to paralize your ability to take action anyway. but fortunatly you can tell them to get stuffed.

As well he has yet to address farmer indebtedness like he promised, and the root causes of poverty and drug use,

- I thought that was what we jsut did "drug use" anyway he cant solve everything in one day.

Furthermore, whatever his beliefs or policies, he is not above the law
-hehe remember you are living in thailand.. lots of poeple are above the law.. yes Im a cynic too
Scottie is typical corporatist. I don't know why he hangs around Indymedia sites, since almost no one who actually supports Indymedia sites is a corporatist. Scottie is just another Rush Windbag type of moron who uses the Indymedia sites to spout off his propagandized mind. I doubt Scottie actually donates money, equipment, technical, or programming ideas to Indymedia.

Scottie said:
"it is hard to own someone who has a billion odd dollars. anyway the main point is he has enough money to be unbribable."

Thaksin is a typical corporatist. So he is owned by business interests. Drug cartels are the biggest business on the planet. That is why Thaksin can't put the corrupt cops on trial. Check out NarcoNews.com -- It has immense amounts of material on drug corruption:
http://www.narconews.com

Scottie said:
"he just told the police that they need to catch some drug dealers (you cant do anything else with a police force that is that corrupt) and they did."

Sure he can. He can decriminalize drugs. He can start more separate branches of the police to do nothing but investigate corruption. Multiple overlapping independent corruption investigation. But then the holy unbribable Thaksin would no longer be "bribed" by drug money, etc.. that his cronies and police friends are accumulating. He is "bribed" because he won't go after them. How much more bribed can one get.

Scottie reveals his true moronic trickle-down corporatist roots:
"A) the poverty issue is unsolvabe witout general economic growth so that is a long term issue"

Scottie reveals his Clear Channel and Fox News style of spin control by ignoring Matthew's statement:
"He has stifled every institution set up by the new constitution, including those investigating him for being unusually rich. A man who was a testimonial witness against Shin Sat, the family business, was murdered near my house at Doi Maesalong. No more witness."

So Scottie is just another corporatist complicit in murder and exploitation. Go back to Fox News, you amateur.
by Scottie
Sure he can. He can decriminalize drugs

- he did not get elected on a "decriminalize drugs platform. Anyway drugs can actually damage your mind and a country full of damaged minds is likely to have a poverty problem.

. He can start more separate branches of the police to do nothing but investigate corruption.

--- they will be REALLY corrupt.. or maybe the job will be a little too dangerous for sane people..

He is "bribed" because he won't go after them.

- you people who live in an ideal world where everything can beachieved at once and only perfection is acceptible ahh lay of the drugs.


- As to the need for economic growth --- My point is if the average income of a country is a poverty level income then you will have poverty in your country.
by Scottie
Scottie reveals his Clear Channel and Fox News style of spin control by ignoring Matthew's statement:
"He has stifled every institution set up by the new constitution, including those investigating him for being unusually rich. A man who was a testimonial witness against Shin Sat, the family business, was murdered near my house at Doi Maesalong. No more witness."

- no I adressed that. Just like with clinton he IS above the law. not from a moral point of view but just a practical one. attempts to bring acase against him will just collapse and dissapear mysteriously whether he tells them to or not. There are now many people who have the same vested interests as him. there are also gangs and drug dealers who have the opposite vested interests.. I guess if you hate him so much your only chance is assasination. personaly I hope its the gangs and drugdealers who loose in that struggle.
You cannot make a childrens playground out of a malaria filled swamp in one day.
Scottie almost ignored the murders again. Funny.

Scottie, the man with the Fox News damaged mind, said:
"Anyway drugs can actually damage your mind and a country full of damaged minds is likely to have a poverty problem."

You prove what a dumbass you are with that last statement. I rest my case. Go smoke a joint to relax your stress-ridden damaged mind.

As for the rest of your Clear Channel spew, it seems that it is OK with you to go murder people as long as someone SAYS they are a drug user or dealer. But only if they are not in power or a cop. Very Republicrat of you.

Scottie, the math-challenged one, said:
"As to the need for economic growth --- My point is if the average income of a country is a poverty level income then you will have poverty in your country."

Poverty is tolerable where there is a safety net. But Republicrats believe in utter exploitation. Not even a safety net is allowed. Desperation leading to dealing drugs. A safety net could be built with just the wealth illegally acquired by Thaksin and cronies and the drug cartels. Decriminalization would prevent some of the money being wasted on expensive drugs. But then, that is too simple for you, isn't it.

A harm reduction approach to drugs attempts to minimize the damages that some drugs can sometimes cause. Many drugs can be taken fairly safely. Far more harm is caused by drug impurities, shared needles, drug imprisonment, etc.. than are caused by the drugs themselves.

But that is too logical and compassionate for pinhead drug warrior murderers.

Drug Warrior:
"We had to kill him in order to save him."
by scottie
You prove what a dumbass you are with that last statement.

- do you dispute that some drugs cause damage to brain cells? and that a person whos brain is partly disolved, for example, is unlikely to be able to work as well as he used to. And a country of people who cant work well is likely to be a poor country? ok where is the flaw in that?

sometimes there is no perfect solution. if you say to the thai police. "catch only people you can absolutly prove are drug dealers" etcetc they wil jsut catch no body. and you can have your oh so wonderful lawless society.

- Desperation leading to dealing drugs.
my experience of drug dealers (the ones that matter anyway) is like terrorists they are not poor they are quite rich infact. it certainly isn't desperation.


A safety net could be built with just the wealth illegally acquired by Thaksin and cronies and the drug cartels.

haha you live in a dream world whee you can go "oh lets just take all of the money from the drug cartels... hahaha how many thousands of people will you have to kill to do that?

Decriminalization would prevent some of the money being wasted on expensive drugs.

- your funny.. so lower prices on drugs will not make more people use them eh?besides that thailand is not interested in becoming an international paraiah just to be your little social experiemnt (which will fail and leave a terrible legacy for the next few decades)
It is becoming obvious to me that someone so ignorant as you, Scottie, and who bothers to spend the time to show his ignorance repeatedly on a thread about Thailand, is probably a working narc, or works for some other spook branch of the government, or is unbelievably propagandized.

Scottie's addled mind said:
"sometimes there is no perfect solution. if you say to the thai police. 'catch only people you can absolutly prove are drug dealers' etcetc they wil jsut catch no body. and you can have your oh so wonderful lawless society."

Hey, maybe we can do this in the USA, too. String up a few "examples" just on general principle. Dumbass.

Scottie said:
"- your funny.. so lower prices on drugs will not make more people use them eh?besides that thailand is not interested in becoming an international paraiah just to be your little social experiemnt (which will fail and leave a terrible legacy for the next few decades)"

Europe has been decriminalizing more and more. And there has been no problem. But then you probably don't know anything about this. Start here, moron:
http://www.angelfire.com/rnb/y/power.htm and
http://members.fortunecity.com/multi19/power.htm

And Europe has a safety net. Because they don't have as many Fox News propagandized babbling idiots like you:
http://www.angelfire.com/rnb/y/universal.htm and
http://members.fortunecity.com/multi19/universal.htm
by Scottie
Hey, maybe we can do this in the USA, too. String up a few "examples" just on general principle.

- you have a totally different police force in the USA.. it is you who is ignorant. The thai police are corrupt to the core. it just cant opperate like the US one does.. not yet anyway.

Europe has been decriminalizing more and more. And there has been no problem.

A) Europe hasn't done all that well economically lately so unless you are trying to support my argument , I dont see what your point is.
B) I am not concerned about marjuana in itself except as far as it is illegal at the moment hence if you deal in it you have broken the current law.
However whatever they seem to be trying to say i cannot see any credible reason why legalizing drugs and making them cheeper would decreece their usage.. or that the chain of logic is not true at least to some extent.

At present my best guess is if there are less drug users in netherlands it is due to somthing other than their drug policy............. possibly demography.

There is some supporting evidence for this here
http://www.cannabisireland.com/statistics.html

These numbers are all over the place as it is difficult to get accurate statistics.
note that belgium not USA UK etc is the closest country culturally to the netherlands. it happens in these numbers belgiums is less than the netherlands.

Now you will have to find a more relevant comparison. I bet that canabis usage in er saudi arabia (i am just trying to think of a place where you get your hands choped off and it is illegal) than in the netherlands.

By the way I have never seen FOX tv.. You can have the purple star for idiocy above and beyond the call of duty.
by scottie
hard to find origional statistics online
here is one that seems to show some sharp increaces in drug use in europe

http://www.hnnsweden.com/0001/oct01/01oct10-001.htm

together with the other reference there is a big question about how statistics were taken what sort of sample sizes whether you mean last month last night or "ever used" or heavy usage and how you compare them whether the country is urban or not whether it is rich or poor etc etc. just quoting a percentage is meaningless as it could be based on any combination of these.
by eco man
World Drug War Charts. Compilation. Tables, rates. For incarceration, race, jail, prison, cannabis, drugs, mandatory minimums, drug related crime, poverty, murder, etc..
http://www.angelfire.com/rnb/y/charts2.htm and
http://members.fortunecity.com/multi19/charts2.htm

The MAJORITY of the 2.16 million inmates in the USA are incarcerated because of the insane, racist, U.S. DRUG WAR. The USA has around 5% of the world's population and 25% of the world's 8.75 million prisoners. The USA surpassed Russia in the year 2000, and so the USA again has the world's highest incarceration rate! It is now 5 to 19 times higher than all other Western (long democratic traditions) nations! The US incarceration rate is around 5 times higher than it was in 1971 when President Nixon declared a "War on Drugs." 6.6 million adults, or 1 in 32 adults in the USA, or 3.1% of adults, were under correctional supervision (in jail, in prison, on probation, or on parole) at yearend 2001. "Texas led the Nation at yearend 2001 with 4,818 adults under correctional supervision per 100,000 adult State residents, [that's 4.8% of Texas adults] followed by Idaho (4,786) and Delaware (4,545). ... Texas, with 27% of its correctional population in prison or jail" That's 1.3% of Texas adults imprisoned in 2001!
by Scottie
yes lots of people in US jails..
I dont think US jails function very well as "correctional facilities"
they are "punishment facilities" otherwise known as "criminal factories".

Still it is lucky that Thailand is much better and has far less people in jail than the USA i guess.
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