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Dominik Suter urban-myth sourced to Nazi paper
by chris parsons (chrisparsons985 [at] hotmail.com)
Sunday Dec 15th, 2002 11:42 PM
Resident Indymedia anti-Semite outed as spokesperson for Nazi-apologist David Irving’s moronic on-line newsletter 'Focal Point'.

Dominik Suter urban-myth sourced to Focal Point
The resident Indymedia anti-Semite has finally outed himself by publishing details of his September 11 conspiracy theory that appear to have been sourced from Nazi-apologist David Irving’s moronic on-line newsletter 'Focal Point'.

Surprise, surprise.

http://www.fpp.co.uk/online/01/12/WTC_Mysteries3.html

http://www.fpp.co.uk/

Those of you who have been following the Anti-Semite's exploits will recall his frequent references to a character called ‘Dominik Suter ‘ who the anti-Semite alleges was connected to the World Trade Centre ‘bombing plot’ – a supposed Israeli Mossaad operation behind the “fake” September 11 airline attack on the World Trade Centre

The destruction of the Twin Towers, according to the anti-Semite, were calculated to “discredit” peace loving Arabs and incite hostility toward Moslems as part of an insidious "Zionist" (read: Jewish) plot

"Suter", you'll remember, is the fellow the anti-Semite alleges is behind the mysterious Urban Moving Systems, whose employees were "arrested" after neighbors reported them "laughing and cheering" as they watched the World Trade Center burn.

These five "Middle Eastern-looking men," as described by witnesses, were "Israelis" according to anti-Semite and his buddies (if he has any)

According to such neo-Nazi commentators: "Police interrogated them for hours, and transferred them to a maximum security facility, where they were held for months."

According to this myth, the suspects' van (variously a white Chevy, Mitsubish or Toyota) was supposedly registered as the property of Urban Moving Systems: a raid on the Urban Moving Systems warehouse yielded computers, documents, "and other evidence – of what, we don't know"

The happless Suter, the "owner of the company, refused all comment", and soon "fled the country – to Israel" - despite the “maximum security facility” apparently.


The inclusion of Suter, an Israeli, and the front man for what the anti-Semite claims was a Mossad operation, on an official list of "terrorist suspects" is of course intended silence, for good, those who dismiss the Israeli connection to 9/11 as a "myth," urban or otherwise.

Other Nazis and Islamicist "commentators" report that on that list, along with Mohammed Atta, and Zacarias Moussaoui, is not only Suter, but also “five other Americans – or, at least, non-Arabs with US addresses.”

Ooooohhhhh?? What could it all mean?

Well, if you go to David Irving's web site, doubtless he'll fill you in on the details
add your own comments


I might at this time remind the reader of the remarks made by Mr Justice Charles Gray at the conclusion of the epochal defamation trial, David Irving versus Penguin Books Ltd. and Deborah Lipstatd;

"It appears to me that the correct and inevitable inference must be that for the most part (Irving’s) falsification of the historical record was deliberate and that Irving was motivated by a desire to present events in a manner consistent with his own ideological beliefs even if that involved distortion and manipulation of historical evidence"

So too the Indymediab anti-Semite.

The historical record stands like an edifice - and can be toppled. It is doubtless a human construct, and to be a 'scientific' record of events in any sense, I suggest it must be 'falsifiable' - that is, testable - in the way the philosopher Karl Popper means.

The historical record can be wrong. And competing accounts can be genuinely credible alternative records of what "really happened." And open to dispute and 'falsification'.

Like any theory, historical propositions are conditional and contingent.

Perhaps there were "dancing Jews" on the Manhattan rooftops and I wouldn't be in the least surprised if there were Mossad agents in New York on September 11, 2001.

The white van may have been a Chevy - or a Toyota. Who cares.

The whole catastrophe may - but is exceeding unlikely - to have been a clever Jewish/Zionist/Israeli trick to discredit Arabs and manipulate US foreign policy.

In all likelyhood, and by any reasonable test, the hijacking was by Arab nationalists, probably tied up with al-Quadea, and hardly likely to be operating with Mossad assistance let alone the complicity of the US Air Force.

Doubtless, the record of September 11 will be ammended in time as more information comes to hand. Adjusting here, emending there.

But this or that extraneous "suspicious" fact (dancing jews) or "mysterious" bits of information (the enigmantic Dominik Suter ) do not significantly alter - and can hardly be expected to bring down - the vast edifice that is the record of that day.

You'd have to crash a couple of 767s into it to do that.

Unless, of course, you deliberately blind yourself to the enormity of the evidence documenting the event.

Even if you lie BIG enough, long enough - and win enough gullible, semi-literates to one or other "revisionist" line about September 11 to make a "real history" conference a viable proposition - there will still be countless millions that will remember. And who will document the event.

For an excellent paper on Holocaust denial and the role of David Irving, see
http://web.mit.edu/maweigel/www/papers/germanfinal.pdf

See also an interview with Irving by Andrew Roberts of the Sunday Telegraph (London)-

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/i/irving.david/press/irving-vrs-lipstadt/Press_Summary.000116

- which includes this choice quote;

Of his various shocking contentions to do with Hitler and the Holocaust,Irving has insouciantly remarked that if one day he was proved wrong, "I think you will then see me adopt a little bashful smile and utter some such phrase as 'I gave them a good run for their money for over 20 years'. "

The anti-Semite- like Irving - knows darned well that he is lying through his teeth. And his humbug is not a speeding 767.

He's just farting in the elevators
by asdgasf
Monday Dec 16th, 2002 6:42 AM
On October 13, at the University of California at Berkeley, the university chancellor cancelled a hall contract for British historian David Irving. It was claimed that the last minute cancellation was due to insufficient security resources. The organizers of Mr. Irving's lecture were forced to move the evening's event down the street to the main meeting room of the YWCA at 2600 Bancroft Way.

Intimidated by the hostile picketers outside the Alumni House, only 100 of the original audience, some of whom had come from as far as Nevada and Oregon, reached the YWCA hall.

As Mr. Irving was about to speak two hundred people including members of the Jewish fraternity Alpha-Epsilon-Pi and mobsters hired by the Anti-Defamation League and its strong-arm gang, the Jewish Defense League, arrived and stormed the building; one thug had the specific task of throwing over the book tables and trampling books, cassettes, and the speaker underfoot. Although Leslie Katz of the Jewish Bulletin claimed afterwards that the protest was "reportedly organized by a student communist group, Young Spartacists", many of the thugs were in fact in their fifties, and the language of their leaflets was taken straight out of ADL literature with vicious embellishments.

In the ensuing disturbance Mr. Irving was thrown around violently, but escaped serious injury. Several members of his audience were less fortunate and had to be taken to the hospital, to the jeers of the mob, as the newspapers reported. The university's Daily Californian identified the "Spartacist" leader as Barbara Frank; the student newspaper also quoted Shadow Moyer of the International Socialist Organization as saying: "I think what happened here was 100 percent justifiable."

In the ten minutes that passed before police in riot gear arrived damage estimated at several thousand dollars was done to the YWCA building: every table was splintered, its legs torn off for use as clubs; lamps were smashed, chairs were ruined, pictures ripped from walls, windows and mirrors smashed. Tapes spilling out of smashed cassettes littered the floor with torn book jackets and books.

"It was horrible, just horrible", Katz quoted YWCA director Sharon Bettinelli as stating. Vicious tomcat girls with cameras wildly kicked out the panels of doors as members of the audience tried to force them shut. A reporter of the Berkeley Daily Californian interviewed Mr. Irving as he knelt to pick up the pieces and quoted him as saying: "You can judge for yourself who's using the facist methods. What are they afraid of, free speech?" He added (not reported by the newspaper): "You should ask who puts up the money to stage demos like this- and why."

Then he delivered his talk to a rapt if dishevelled audience: one man had blood streaming down his forehead, the speaker himself had blood on the bridge of his nose - he found three pairs of spectacles in his pocket afterwards, of which only one was his.

He has promised Berkeley to return: to show that he cannot be intimidated.
by antifa
Monday Dec 16th, 2002 6:51 AM
Fighting disrupts controversial historian's lecture
Saturday, October 15, 1994 07:28:01 GMT
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BERKELEY, California, (Reuter) - A riot broke out after 100 demonstrators clashed with people attending a lecture by controversial British historian David Irving, who has cast doubt on the Holocaust, police said Friday.
Five people were slightly injured in scuffles Thursday night after the demonstrators marched on a building where Irving was giving the lecture in the college town of Berkeley, Berkeley police inspector Jim Gaebe said.
"It was a confrontation with some people who didn't have the same ideological bent as Mr. Irving," Gaebe said. Berkeley is home to a branch of the University of California, with a campus known for its long history of left-wing politics.
Gaebe said some of the marchers entered the YWCA building where Irving was speaking and fights erupted between opposing groups. He did not know how many people were inside the hall. Most of the people attending the lecture stayed in the building, but some went outside and fighting spilled into the streets, he said.
Some rocks and bottles were thrown, Gaebe said. Forty police officers arrived and sealed off nearby streets to traffic, he said. The streets were soon cleared and no arrests were made, he said.
Gaebe said Irving was able to finish his lecture after the incident.
Irving has stated that the Holocaust, the killing of millions of Jews in Nazi death camps during World War II, was exaggerated and happened without Adolf Hitler's knowledge. His views have outraged mainstream historians and Jewish groups. In the past, he has been deported from Canada, excluded from Germany and refused an Australian visa.

http://www.fpp.co.uk/speeches/UCB/150994.html
by spunk
Monday Dec 16th, 2002 6:54 AM
Nazis Bashed in Berkeley by a Berkeley Anti-Fascist
Two hundred anti-fascists gathered in Berkeley on the evening of Oct. 13, disrupting a speech by Holocaust denier David Irving. This infamous British revisionist "historian" has been waging a campaign for what he calls "real history," but what is in fa ct an insidious pack of lies. He has written sympathetic biographies of Hitler, Goering, and Rommel, and travels around the world lecturing at events sponsored by various pro-nazi groups. He has been accompanied by nazi skins and Toronto-based fascist Ern st Zundel, author of The Hitler We Loved and Did Six Million Really Die? In his home country of Britain, Irving is prevented by anti-fascists from speaking publicly, while in Germany, Canada, and other countries, he is banned from entering altogether.

Irving was scheduled to give a lecture at the Alumni House of the University of California, Berkeley, but the event was secretly moved to a YWCA due to protesters already present. Scouts quickly determined the new location and informed the crowd, which then moved en masse to the YWCA. Finding no police present, protesters stormed the hall, confronting the liar and his supporters. A scuffle ensued as Irving's bodyguard attacked the protesters. Several older nazis sporting SS pins tried to leave and were subjected to the justified rage of anti-fascists, many of whom had family members interned by these same people. Irving's literature table was overturned and a box of videotapes, The Death of the "Holocaust" Legend Begins, was smashed with great enthusia sm. Also found were swastika stickers, a German pride button, and other nazi merchandise.

Cops from the Berkeley and UC-campus police departments eventually arrived, driving the anti-fascists from the building. By this time, most of the people who had come to hear Irving speak had gotten cold feet and left. After several more disruptions, I rving was able to give his speech to a greatly diminished audience, and only under the armed protection of dozens of police.

About 75 anti-fascists waited out the lecture, and Irving, donning a disguise, tried desperately for half-an-hour to leave without notice. Finally, with cops helping him carry out his hate literature, he was whisked off in a cop car.

The action was seen by organizers as a partial but important success. Although the demonstrators were not able to prevent the lecture from taking place, hopefully the Alumni House and the YWCA have learned that people in Berkeley won't tolerate racist scumbags like Irving.

Many of us were pleasantly surprised by the breadth of participation and the level of militancy displayed by the protesters against the hate-mongers. Many passers-by joined the protest or were otherwise supportive, adding to the collective spirit of an ti-fascist solidarity.

Some onlookers voiced concern over the issue of "free speech," engaging anti-fascists in heated discussions on the street. Our response was that David Irving did not come to speak dispassionately about the finer points of academia, but instead to netwo rk with nazis and other Holocaust deniers. To have let this event occur unhindered would imply our complicity in allowing the worldwide neo-nazi movement to grow.H

http://www.spunk.org/library/pubs/lr/sp001715/notesrev.html
by afsfds
Monday Dec 16th, 2002 6:57 AM
It seems like Republicans and the Right are all too quick to embrace nazis when Israel isnt being brought up... but bring up probllems with Israel and these same people accuse you of being antiSemetic.

Its a little creepy the same people who tried to get Irving to speak in Berkeley are the same people who constantly badmouth the SJP... even though many at the SJP protests at Berkeley were the same people who PREVENTED Irving from speaking...
by ..........
Monday Dec 16th, 2002 7:35 AM
Well, the arrests of the Israelis DID happen, there is absolutely no doubt about it. 5 people arrested in broad daylight for taking pictures of the 911 incident on charges of 'puzzling behaviour'. Sure, they had some box cutters. They were working as movers for Chrissakes!!! I've worked as a mover before, and I generally had a pair of boxcutters with me.

I'd like to see some of this film they took ..... IMHO they were arrested, not for being spies or being excited at the scene of America's most disastrous terrorist attack, but probably because they were taking pictures from an inconvenient angle .....
by parse the spin
Monday Dec 16th, 2002 10:57 AM
quote:
========================================
Dominik Suter is a David Irving fiction
by chris parsons • Sunday December 15, 2002 at 11:36 PM
chrisparsons985 [at] hotmail.com

The resident Indymedia anti-semite has finally outed
himself by publishing details of his September 11
conspiracy theory that appear to have been sourced from Nazi-apologist David Irving’s moronic on-line newsletter 'Focal Point'.
============================================


The sources:

Ha'Aretz
Bergen Record
New York Times
ABC
U.S Department of Drug Enforcement
Forward



============================================
Surprise, surprise.
http://www.fpp.co.uk/online/01/12/WTC_Mysteries3.html
http://www.fpp.co.uk/
============================================


indeed!


============================================
Those of you who have been following the Anti-Semite's
exploits will recall his frequent references to a character
called ‘Dominik Suter ‘ who Cockroach alleges was connected
to the World Trade Centre ‘bombing plot’ – a supposed Israeli
Mossaad operation behind the “fake” September 11
airline attack on the World Trade Centre.
============================================


The allegations were reported in Ha'Aretz, New York Times, Bergen Record, DEA, ABC and Forward.



============================================
The destruction of the Twin Towers, according to the anti-
Semite, were calculated to “discredit” peace loving Arabs
and incite hostility toward Moslems as part of an insidious
"Zionist" (read: Jewish) plot
============================================


Feel free to keep beating this strawman if it makes you happy.



============================================
"Suter", you'll remember, is the fellow the anti-Semite
alleges is behind the mysterious Urban Moving Systems,
whose employees were "arrested" after neighbors reported
them "laughing and cheering" as they watched the World
Trade Center burn.
============================================


Dominik Suter was the manager of the Mossad front operation called "Urban Moving Systems". The arrests for Joy & Mockery were real arrests---no need for scare quotes Chris--and the agents were found with false passports, box-cutters and a fat wad of cash. Trained canines responded as if they had detected explosives.

These facts were were reported in Ha'Aretz, New York Times, Bergen Record, DEA, ABC and Forward.



============================================
These five "Middle Eastern-looking men," as described by
witnesses, were "Israelis" according to anti-Semite and his
buddies (if he has any)
============================================


According to Ha'Aretz, New York Times, Bergen Record, DEA, ABC and Forward. These reports are not my figment.


============================================
According to such neo-Nazi commentators: "Police
interrogated them for hours, and transferred them to a
maximum security facility, where they were held for
months."
============================================


According to such neo-Nazi commentators like Ha'Aretz, New York Times, Bergen Record, DEA, ABC and Forward.


============================================
According to this myth,
============================================


Myth?


============================================
the suspects' van (variously a white Chevy, Mitsubish or
Toyota) was supposedly registered as the property of Urban
Moving Systems: a raid on the Urban Moving Systems
warehouse yielded computers, documents, "and other
evidence – of what, we don't know"
============================================


We don't have much reported on the contents of the warehouse, but the agents were found in possession of box-cutters, false passports and a large sum of cash, while trained canines reacted as if they had detected explosives.
The model and brand of the van is irrelevant and was not the subject of any of the reports.


============================================
The happless Suter, the "owner of the company, refused all
comment", and soon "fled the country – to Israel" - despite
the “maximum security facility” apparently.
============================================


"The state also has a lawsuit pending against Urban Moving Systems and its owner, Dominik Otto Suter, an Israeli citizen. The FBI questioned Mr. Suter once. However, he left the country afterward and went back to Israel before further questioning."
--New York's oldest Jewish publication, Forward


============================================
The inclusion of Suter, an Israeli, and the front man for
what the anti-Semite claims was a Mossad operation, on an
official list of "terrorist suspects" is of course intended
silence, for good, those who dismiss the Israeli connection
to 9/11 as a "myth," urban or otherwise.
============================================


Who compliled the list for Assifact, Chris?


============================================
Other Nazis and Islamicist "commentators" report that
on that list, along with Mohammed Atta, and Zacarias
Moussaoui, is not only Suter, but also “five other
Americans – or, at least, non-Arabs with US
addresses.”
============================================


"Other Nazis and Zionists report that..."
?????????????? ???????? ??????????????????


============================================
Ooooohhhhh?? What could it all mean?
============================================


Oooooohhh! Aaaaaahhhh! Your appeal to ridicule is a logical fallacy that won't work, Chris.


============================================
Well, if you go to David Irving's web site, doubtless
he'll fill you in on the details
============================================


I already got the details--from Ha'Aretz, New York Times, Bergen Record, DEA, ABC and Forward.


============================================
I might at this time remind the reader of the remarks
made by Mr Justice Charles Gray at the conclusion of
the epochal defamation trial, David Irving versus Penguin Books Ltd. and Deborah Lipstatd;
============================================


Why? What does the Irving case have to do with Sivan and Paul Kurzberg, Oded Ellner, Omer Marmari and Yaron Shmuel, Dominik Suter and their Mossad front?



=====================================
....even if that involved distortion and manipulation of
historical evidence"
=====================================


What facts have been distorted or manipulated, Chris?

Please be specific.




=====================================
The historical record stands like an edifice - and can
be toppled. It is doubtless a human construct, and to
be a 'scientific' record of events in any sense, I
suggest it must be 'falsifiable' - that is, testable - in the
way the philosopher Karl Popper means.
=====================================



The official narrative has been falsified with documented facts, Chris. Here's a little one--verbatim:
"Immediately following the FIRST ATTACK, I implimented our government's EMERGENCY RESPONSE PLAN!" - G.W Bush, 09/11/2001



=====================================
The historical record can be wrong. And competing
accounts can be genuinely credible alternative records
of what "really happened." And open to dispute
and 'falsification'.
=====================================


Do we have competing accounts of Suter narrative, Chris. They all seem to mutually compatible reports from what I've read in Ha'Aretz, New York Times, Bergen Record, DEA, ABC and Forward.



=====================================
Like any theory, historical propositions are conditional
and contingent.

Perhaps there were "dancing Jews" on the Manhattan
rooftops and I wouldn't be in the least surprised if there were Mossad agents in New York on September
11, 2001.
=====================================


It's on the record, Chris. Why do you continue disputing the reports from Ha'Aretz, New York Times, Bergen Record, DEA, ABC and Forward?


=====================================
The white van may have been a Chevy - or a Toyota.
Who cares.
=====================================



Where did you get this strawman? Why do you like it so much?



=====================================
The whole catastrophe may - but is exceeding
unlikely - to have been a clever Jewish/Zionist/Israeli
trick to discredit Arabs and manipulate US foreign policy.
=====================================


The entirety of the **whole** "catastrophe"--ie: premedidated murder--is your strawman. You seem to like them.



=====================================
In all likelyhood, and by any reasonable test, the
hijacking was by Arab nationalists, probably tied up with al-Quadea, and hardly likely to be operating with Mossad assistance let alone the complicity of the US Air Force.
=====================================


What test of reasonableness would you recommend?
Despite aggressive denials by frauds that such occured, a standown order was issued to ALL military and law enforcement aircraft to "get down" at 9.25am on September 11. I don't think Al Queda has the authority to issue stand down orders.


=====================================
Doubtless, the record of September 11 will be
ammended in time as more information comes to
hand. Adjusting here, emending(sic) there. =====================================


Oh yes, we've seen the adjustments already. eg:the Orwellian Revisionist version of the Pet Goat Story from the New York Post (Sept 12, 2002), in which the heroic pResident jumps out of his seat, rushes from the classroom and tells the teacher to "take over" when informed of the second attack.
That didn't happen, Chris---but the adjustment did!


=====================================
But this or that extraneous "suspicious" fact (dancing
jews) or "mysterious" bits of information (the enigmantic Dominik Suter ) do not significantly alter - and can hardly be expected to bring down - the vast edifice that is the record of that day.
=====================================


What evidence does the record tell us about the perpretrators, Chris?



=====================================
Unless, of course, you deliberately blind yourself to the enormity of the evidence documenting the event.
=====================================


The events happened.
Who caused the events, and how do we know who was responsible? Where is your evidence?



=====================================
Even if you lie BIG enough, long enough - and win enough gullible, semi-literates to one or other "revisionist" line about September 11 to make a "real history" conference a viable proposition - there will still be countless millions that will remember. And
who will document the event.
=====================================


As before, please provide evidence of my "lies".
Specific references please--no allusions.



=====================================
For an excellent paper on Holocaust denial and the
role of David Irving, see
http://web.mit.edu/maweigel/www/papers/germanfinal.pdf
See also an interview with Irving by Andrew Roberts of
the Sunday Telegraph (London)-
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/i/irving.david/press/irving-vrs-lipstadt/Press_Summary.000116

- which includes this choice quote;

Of his various shocking contentions to do with Hitler
and the Holocaust,Irving has insouciantly remarked
that if one day he was proved wrong, "I think you will then see me adopt a little bashful smile and utter
some such
phrase as 'I gave them a good run for their money for
over 20 years'. "
=====================================


repeat---What does the Holocaust denial have to do with the case of Sivan and Paul Kurzberg, Oded Ellner, Omer Marmari and Yaron Shmuel, Dominik Suter and their Mossad front?



=====================================
The Cockroach - like Irving - knows darned well that he
is lying through his teeth. And his humbug is not a
speeding 767.

He's just farting in the elevators
=====================================



again---please document specific evidence of my "lies".
by Chris Parsons (Chrisparsons985 [at] hotmail.com)
Monday Dec 16th, 2002 3:20 PM

I think it is worth noting immediately here that the anti-Semite - in his reply to this article - does not deny his affiliation with David Irving, but merely throws more blather into the arena as rhetorical diversion.

The main things to note, I feel, about so called "Revisionist History' is its trade in rumours and hearsay which it then demands that the reader attempt to 'disprove'.

How do you refute a story like the Dominik Suter line, which this particular anti-Semite has been peddling at Indymedia sites around the Pacific? (I'm writing from Australia by the way.)

Let's put it this way.

How do you prove there's no Santa Clause? After all, his existence has been widely reported in the media for many years - and ask any child in the street whether or not he exists.

I have even seen his picture in newspapers and on television. I once saw someone who looked very much like him in my own childhood home.

That's the point about 'testable' (falsifiable) hypotheses. That's why philosophers of science, like Kuhn and Popper, are so emphatic about scientific theories being contingent, conditional propositions about reality.

They evade 'proof'' in the way, say, a maths equation can be demonstrated as 'prooved; through deductive methodology.

They ultimately rest upon plausibility - and we have to make a judgement.

And of course, a complete fool - even one as weird as the anti-Semite - can be right. And certainly the most informed analyst can be wrong.

But which is more likely in this case?

And what is the more plausible (but necessarily conditional and contingent) hypothesis about the World Trade Centre catastrophe and those who carried it to conclusion?

Was it a trio of dancing Jews, as according to David Irving and his friends? Was it a bomb?

Does smashing a 767 fully laden with jet fuel into a tall building at 550mph cause sufficient damage to bring a building down? Or would that be just fine from a building design viewpoint?

Was it a sneak attack by a formal ally with a hidden agenda? But to which the anti-Semite has priviliged access?

Or was it a thoroughly planned, highly organised strike by those very groups who are;
a) eager to take take 'credit' for the outcome
b) who have openly declared themselves to be the avowed enemies of America and its Jewish allies in Israel
c) who have threatened to wreak such vengeance on America again, and
d) who have a demonstrated track record of such activity on other occasions and in other places?


Minor point:

emend
Pronunciation: E-'mend
Function: transitive verb
Etymology: Middle English, from Latin emendare -- more at AMEND
Date: 15th century
: to correct usually by textual alterations
synonym see CORRECT
- emend·able /-'men-d&-b&l/ adjective
- emend·er noun

Webster's Dictionary

by ............
Monday Dec 16th, 2002 3:58 PM
Our politicians are corrupt, a lot are greedy and a lot are just stupid. And they get worse as our system deteriorates. I finally realized such politicians are just a bunch of pigs at the public trough.

But it's their trough, you see? They're not going to share it, much less give it away to some foreign interests. Politicians can be voted out after a term or so. They can't afford to risk their careers on treason. In what time they have, they must rip off as much as possible to feather their own nests. In short, they're not idealists with some sinister cause; they're just people, not conspirators.

And what is a conspiracy? A conspiracy is when two or more people plan, in secret, to do something wrong. But what if the conspiracy is broadcast, documented, spread nationwide? Pitiful!

Say you and a couple of friends conspired to rob a bank. Before you can do it the news is on the street. Would you go through with it? And if you were so clumsy and stupid as to let your plans be known to outsiders, you'd best go straight.

And the big "Jewish Conspiracy"? It's been detailed, documented, exposed for all to see, for years! The conspirators are described as brilliant, sinister, powerful and yet so clumsy that even you know what they're up to.

So you have only two ways of looking at it. Either the "Jewish Conspirators" are and have been totally incompetent and so there's nothing to worry about, or there is and was no conspiracy in the first place. The whole thing with the "Jewish Conspiracy" is that it's a lie. Every bit of it. It has to be believed by those who really want to believe it. Any fool can believe and every fool does. But the wise person wants to know, rather than believe. You can't prove a lie so the "Jewish Conspiracy" promoters are kept busy inventing more lies as even those they've fooled show signs of waking up.

by No Doubt
Monday Dec 16th, 2002 7:02 PM
........, I respect your opinions, 99% of the time, but the fact is there is a Jewish conspiracy! Sure, it may be discernable only upon deeper research, but it's not obvious until you look into it! I never thought about it until I started studying the Palestine-Israel conflict, and now I can plainly see that there has been a Jewish conspiracy--- or I should say a Zionist conspiracy---- where wealthy, influential Zionists have their 126+ PACs with innocous sounding names, and their "think-tanks" and their lobby groups, all whose sole agenda is--- guess what??? The continuation and strenghening of racist, apartheid Israel! NOT the betterment or best interests of strengthening the United States of America! There has been a DELIBERATE attempt by Jewish Zionists to keep the truth about Israel's ethnic cleansing out of the American public's radar, and a DELIBERATE attempt toinstead paint "the poor Jews" as eternal helpless victims, of the Arab countries who want to "push Israel into the sea" (for no good reason, just blind hatred, mind you. Of course, it has *nothing* to do with the fact that the Zionist Jews STOLE land from the indigenous people and proceeded to embark on a campaign of ethnic cleansingof the indigenous people from their own homeland!) There is most definately a Jewish and Israeli conspiracy to skew everything in the direction of strengthening racist, apartheid Israel! They will do ANYTHING, and say ANYTHING, whatever it takes to feed their obsession with Jewish supremacy in Israel, and now they're pushing for domination over the whole Arab world. After that may come Europe. American is already almost a lost cause!
by ............
Monday Dec 16th, 2002 8:04 PM
It's far more likely you're seeing the work of a far-right Christian conspiracy, than a Jewish one ......
by I doubt it
Monday Dec 16th, 2002 8:30 PM
I doubt it, because the Christian Right isn't THAT hung up about Israel, whereas it is the raison d'etre of the Zionists, and many Jewish supporters.

Zionist Israel is what is driving us into WWIII now. It's been festering since day one of its immoral creation and now it's about to explode. And Israel is dragging the US into the whole thing. I am positive that 85% of most Americans would say HELL NO they don't want to send anyone money at all to Israel, especially when they find out it's a racist, apartheid country and exactly HOW MUCH of our tax dollars is going there, the incredible amount that is funnelled there unbeknownst to many Americans.

Israel is a COMPLETE liability to all Americans, except for deluded Jews.
by ...............
Monday Dec 16th, 2002 8:31 PM
"I doubt it, because the Christian Right isn't THAT hung up about Israel"

You can't be serious ...... well, maybe you're right. Maybe they think Mount Armaggedon is in New Zealand, but not last I heard ....
by Hasbara Goy
Monday Dec 16th, 2002 8:52 PM

Joy & Mockery

5 Israelis detained for `puzzling behavior' after WTC tragedy
Five Israelis who had worked for a moving company based in New Jersey are being held in U.S. prisons for what the Federal Bureau of Investigation has described as "puzzling behavior" following the terror attack on the World Trade Center in New York last Tuesday.[...] They are said to have had been caught videotaping the disaster and shouting in what was interpreted as cries of joy and mockery.Ha'Aretz, September 17, 2001

Five Men Detained As Suspected Conspirators
Eight hours after terrorists struck Manhattan's tallest skyscrapers, police in Bergen County detained five men who they said were found carrying maps linking them to the blasts. The five men, who were in a van stopped on Route 3 in East Rutherford around 4:30 p.m., were being questioned by police but had not been charged with any crime late Tuesday.

However, sources close to the investigation said they found other evidence linking the men to the bombing plot. "There are maps of the city in the car with certain places highlighted," the source said. "It looked like they're hooked in with this. It looked like they knew what was going to happen when they were at Liberty State Park."

Sources also said that bomb-sniffing dogs reacted as if they had detected explosives. The FBI seized the van for further testing, authorities said. Bergen Record, September 12, 2001 (copy)

The White Van
Said one of the men, denying that they were laughing or happy on the morning of Sept. 11, "The fact of the matter is we are coming from a country that experiences terror daily. Our purpose was to document the event." ABC June 21, 2002

Spies, or students?
Were the Israelis just trying to sell their paintings, or agents in a massive espionage ring? Ha'Aretz, May 14, 2002

Suspicious Activities Involving Israeli Art Students at DEA Facilities
Drug Enforcement Administration Office of Security, June, 2001
In January, 2001, the Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA), Office of Security Programs (IS), began to receive reports of Israeli art students attempting to penetrate several DEA Field Offices in the continental United States. Additionally, there have been reports of Israeli art students visiting the homes of numerous DEA employees. These incidents have occurred since at least the beginning of 2000, and have continued to the present DEA

Spy Rumors Fly on Gusts of Truth
Americans Probing Reports of Israeli Espionage

Despite angry denials by Israel and its American supporters, reports that Israel was conducting spying activities in the United States may have a grain of truth, the Forward has learned.[...]

According to one former high-ranking American intelligence official, who asked not to be named, the FBI came to the conclusion at the end of its investigation that the five Israelis arrested in New Jersey last September (Sivan and Paul Kurzberg, Oded Ellner, Omer Marmari and Yaron Shmuel) were conducting a Mossad surveillance mission and that their employer, Urban Moving Systems of Weehawken, N.J., served as a front.[...]

In addition to their strange behavior and their Middle Eastern looks, the suspicions were compounded when a box cutter and $4,000 in cash were found in the van. Moreover, one man carried two passports and another had fresh pictures of the men standing with the smoldering wreckage of the World Trade Center in the background.[...]

On December 7, a New Jersey judge ruled that the state could seize the goods remaining inside the warehouse. The state also has a lawsuit pending against Urban Moving Systems and its owner, Dominik Otto Suter, an Israeli citizen. The FBI questioned Mr. Suter once. However, he left the country afterward and went back to Israel before further questioning. Mr. Suter declined through his lawyer to be interviewed for this article.[...] Charlene Eban, a spokeswoman for the FBI in Washington, and Don Nelson, a Justice Department spokesman, said they had no knowledge of an Israeli spying operation.

"If we found evidence of unauthorized intelligence operations, that would be classified material," added Jim Margolin, a spokesman for the FBI in New York. Forward, February, 2002

Dominik Suter of Mossad on an FBI Suspect List (large pdf)
by Ian Jackson
Monday Dec 16th, 2002 11:45 PM
How many times are you going to post a "comment" that is twice the length of the average headline story? I've seen this thing like 8 times already!!!!!!!
by Hasbara Goy
Tuesday Dec 17th, 2002 3:55 AM
It depends how many times people keep suggesting that Domink Suter was an invention of David Irving.

Do you think Dominik Suter was an Irving invention, Ian?

Did I quote David Irving?

Did I reference any of his fraudulent material?

Do you think Ha'Aretz, The Bergen Record, ABC, DEA and Forward are spreading lies about Dominik Suter and Urban Moving Systems?


Tell us your interpretation of the substance of the posts -- not the character of the poster.

by ...........
Tuesday Dec 17th, 2002 4:25 AM
They're one sided. Good questions are raised, but others are avoided.
For instance - in other threads I've seen you entertaining different notions about different conspiracy possibilities re 911. There's alot of stuff in the Suter thing that is (a) not verifiable and (b) you have to trust the government to believe.
One glaring 800lb gorilla you missed though: 5 guys are arrested at the scene of 911 for *taking pictures*
I'm not objecting so much to the article itself though as to its repetitive nature across this and other IMCs. What makes you think your issue is more important than all the others?

"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject."

Winston Churchill

That's not an accusation, just something to keep in mind.
by Frank Hague
Tuesday Dec 17th, 2002 5:28 AM
Sorry, but in all your posts there is absolutely no connection here with responsibility or foreknowledge of 9/11 events.

Under one scenario you have aggitated arab looking people (and on 9/11 looking arab was enough to make you seem 'happy' about events) grabbed by police. Big deal. Happened to hundreds that day I suspect.

They claim to be tourists but turn out to be illegal immigrants - workers. Big deal. Its probably hard to find a moving company in NYC area without illegals working on it.

Box cutters, passports and cash all an be connected with both moving company and illegals.

Second scenario: they are a Mossad cell. Any mention of this in your links relate this to a terrorist monitoring cell - not to responsibility for the attacks.

So Isreal has spy cells in the US? I am surprised that you seem so shocked about this. For your information,this is no secret, we've arrested others before. If they aren't US Citizens or aren't spying on US Govt these guys are usually released after being caught. I'm sure if you looked you can find other links to foreign countries spying in the US.

Two strange questions though.

1 ) If they were Mossad and Mossad was so all powerful and in cahoots with the US Govt in 9/11, why couldn't they get valid visas?

2) If they were 'behind' the attack, wouldn't it have been logical for them to have gotten a room with a view in say, Jersey City and filmed everything from there? Perhaps they could have stayed in the apartment of one of the 4,000 'isrealis' whose lives I am sure they saved by warning them not to go to work that day.

If I had to guess, I'd say these may have been connected with some Isreali intelligence agency monitoring the large moslem community in N.J. (where there is a lot of fund raising for Palestinian causes) and, hearing of hte attack, drove to take pictures.

This is a nice little story but I think you have woven too big a tale from a few bits and pieces. There isn't anything to it that points to your conclusion unless you expect others to be as shocked at you at learning that Isreal and other countries have spies in the US>



by Hasbara Guy
Tuesday Dec 17th, 2002 6:09 AM
I addressed my questions to "Ian". Are you "Ian"?

=============
They're one sided.
=============

There seems to be only one group of people involved in the Urban Moving Systems front operation that we know about. Thus we have multiple mutually compatible reports from various sources about the behavior of those agents while filming the attacks and during the arrest.

What "other side" do you feel hasn't been reported?



=============================
Good questions are raised, but others are avoided.
For instance - in other threads I've seen you......
=============================

Stop right there. The questions posed are the ones you form yourself while reading the reports. I didn't write the reports or raise the questions.


==============================
in other threads I've seen you......entertaining different notions about different conspiracy possibilities re 911.
==============================

You have? Other than the notion that the offical narrative is fatally flawed--a notion built on hundreds of threads of contradictions and intentional deceptions (all referenced to working links-original where possible, archives when not)--I don't think I've entertained any notions at all about what actually happened on September 11.

Can you please cite or reference links to these notions of mine about conspiracy possibilities?



==================================
There's alot of stuff in the Suter thing that is (a) not verifiable and (b) you have to trust the government to believe.
===================================

a) everything in the reports is verifiable *if* traced to the original producers of the reports: ultimately, the performers themselves--including Suter.

b) Trust is the only interpretation of faith worthy of respect, and only when built on experience. Recent experience doesn't help the case for trusting the current misadministration



===============================
One glaring 800lb gorilla you missed though: 5 guys are arrested at the scene of 911 for *taking pictures*
===============================

No -- this is your 800lb strawman built on aversion to the details--eg: the marked maps, the false-passports, fat wads of cash and olfactory discrimination of explosives by trained canines.

<a href="http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,52681,00.html">This post 911 incident was rather similar:

**********************************************************
Monday, May 13, 2002
By Carl Cameron
Fox

"A Budget truck was pulled over in Oak Harbor, Wash., last Tuesday near the Whidbey Island Naval Air Station and found to have traces of TNT on the gearshift and traces of RDX plastic explosive on the steering wheel, Fox News has learned.

Traces of explosives were also found on one of the truck's two occupants.
[...]
A bomb-sniffing dog first detected explosives on one of the men and inside the truck. High-tech equipment was used later to confirm the presence of TNT and RDX plastic explosive.

Documents read to Fox News indicate that both driver and passenger were Israeli nationals. Investigators say a roadside check of the national database of immigration records indicated that one of the men had not entered the country legally
***********************************************************


==================================
I'm not objecting so much to the article itself though as to its repetitive nature across this and other IMCs. What makes you think your issue is more important than all the others?
==================================

a) I posted the Joy & Mockery post on ~ 5 IMC sites, and I do so, in part, because it drew very little attention from the mainstream media, unlike the dubious tape of the "celebrating Palestinians" that was *repeatedly* broadcast on every network around the globe on the day of the attacks.


Re-cogntion of error is a critical element in the learning process--particularly if you want to actually understand what you're learning. I always welcome the exposure of error.
But I don't appreciate abuse or anti-Gricean accusations concerning my unreferenced "lies" and "manipulations" and " distortions".

(the last link contains an extremely important essay)
by Daryle Lamont Jenkins (greengang [at] onepeoplesproject.com)
Tuesday Dec 17th, 2002 5:54 PM
Fuck that shiite.

Any anti-semite you see, shoot him the balls, slice his fucking throat, and shit on his face.

DLJ
by the human genome
Tuesday Dec 17th, 2002 5:59 PM
should we do the same to anti-arabs, anti-backs, ant-asians, anti-goys and other racists.........or are semites **special**

??
by ADN
Saturday Dec 21st, 2002 9:38 PM
Parse,

You keep presenting this list of sources: Ha'Aretz, New York Times, Bergen Record, DEA, ABC and Forward.

I've only read some of the coverage. Yes, it describes a group of Israeli moving men being arrested in New Jersey.

But it does not imply that the Israeli moving company was, in fact, a Mossad front. Nor does it imply that these or other Israelis organized the terrorist attacks.

Where in the record do you find these "facts?"
by agree
Saturday Dec 21st, 2002 10:11 PM
"I don't think Al Queda has the authority to issue stand down orders."

That's a beautiful line! It sort of says it all.
by to tell you but
Saturday Dec 21st, 2002 10:14 PM
"Any anti-semite you see, shoot him the balls, slice his fucking throat, and shit on his face"

This says alot about 'semites,' I presume.
by Already Published
Saturday Dec 21st, 2002 10:23 PM
"But it does not imply that the Israeli moving company was, in fact, a Mossad front"

requote:
===============
According to one former high-ranking American intelligence official, who asked not to be named, the FBI came to the conclusion at the end of its investigation that the five Israelis arrested in New Jersey last September (Sivan and Paul Kurzberg, Oded Ellner, Omer Marmari and Yaron Shmuel) were conducting a Mossad surveillance mission and that their employer, Urban Moving Systems of Weehawken, N.J., served as a front.[...]
===================

from the anti-semitic nazi-cockroach dispreuted Jewish publication....

...Forward.


Did you read the records?

Did you note the olfactory discrimination of explosives by trained canines?

Did you note that Israel finally conceding that it was a Mossad operation after playing the denial card for several weeks?

Did you note the explanatory statment by one of the arrested Mossad agents--"we were there to document the event"?

Let's go to America to document the imminent terrorist attacks, shall we?
by this looks fishy
Saturday Dec 21st, 2002 10:29 PM
to document the event?
by CIAgent
Sunday Dec 22nd, 2002 12:40 PM
something else to think about

What Really Happens at whatreallyhappened.com?
By S. Boyle
Why would Michael Rivero, an avowed anti-globalist, anti-corporate champion of the truth be working for (or very closely with) a corporate operation like PMC4, LLC?
http://www.ciagents.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=385&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0

Borrowing the Skeleton from Senator Trent Lott's Closet
By S. Boyle
A follow-up to What Really Happens at whatreallyhappened.com
http://www.phillyimc.org/article.pl?sid=02/12/13/2339222&mode=thread
by ...........
Sunday Dec 22nd, 2002 1:52 PM
"a) I posted the Joy & Mockery post on ~ 5 IMC sites, and I do so, in part, because it drew very little attention from the mainstream media, unlike the dubious tape of the "celebrating Palestinians" that was *repeatedly* broadcast on every network around the globe on the day of the attacks.
Re-cogntion of error is a critical element in the learning process--particularly if you want to actually understand what you're learning. I always welcome the exposure of error.
But I don't appreciate abuse or anti-Gricean accusations concerning my unreferenced "lies" and "manipulations" and " distortions".


OK, Hasbara, let me make myself crystal clear here. I'm not saying there is absolutely nothing to this, nor am I accusing you of distortion. All I'm saying is that we don't really know all the facts. If all you had concerning 911 was two or three news articles, it would be an open and shut case: AQ did it. But there is alot more info out there, so it isn't so open and shut.
For the Israelis in vans, there are only a few articles. 2 or 3 original reports at most, with any other coverage merely parroting the original reports. There could be so much more we don't know about, is all I'm saying. You present alot of evidence which would favour an "Israel did it" argument, but who really knows and what are you going on for this? Not much, really, except a couple of reports, which, although they are likely true, probably tell only the smallest fraction of the story. I'm not saying it's not possible that it was Israel; I'm saying we should be careful and objective, and realize the vastness of the unseen.
by Hasbara Goy
Sunday Dec 22nd, 2002 9:18 PM
"what are you going on for this? "

Five reports, and a year of constant harrasment, intimidation, identity theft... and my own personal stalker!


Doesn't that tell you something?

Is this the behaviour of the innocent?



Let's go to America to document the imminent terrorist attacks, shall we?




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