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Indybay Feature
10/13:Siege of SF by Navy's Blue Death; 11/03:Dec of Policy
The horror of war was visited upon our peace-loving city of San Francisco on 10/13/02, from 1 p.m. t o 4 p.m. for the 4th time, during the week of the Columbus Genocide Fascist Fleet Week events, with a terrifying, noisy nightmare by the Navy's Blue Angels aka Blue Death aka terrorists which must end.
The horror of war was visited upon our peace-loving city of San Francisco on 10/13/02, from 1 p.m. t o 4 p.m. for the 4th time, during the week of the Columbus Genocide Fascist Fleet Week events, with a terrifying, noisy nightmare by the Navy's Blue Angels aka Blue Death aka terrorists which must end.
This 20th year of these illegal low flights over a heavily populated area, wasting tax dollars and oil, glorifying war and making terrible noise can be the beginning of the end if we make it a campaign issue in the mayor's race of November 2003 by putting a Declaration of Policy on that ballot. The cheapest way is to have 4 supervisors put it on the ballot. We can achieve majority approval of this policy if we concentrate on the issue of the Blue Death flights. Without those flights, Fleet Week cannot draw the crowds and will not return as it is too expensive to bring those ships from San DIego and Hawaii, and we have no bases here for them since our peace movement has achieved closing of the navy bases in the area.
We can achieve the goal of ending the terrorist Navy's Blue Death flights as we will have a very broad ideological spectrum of support, with the support being heaviest among the voting population, namely the over age 40 population and the better-educated young people. Our public sentiment petition circulated in 1999 was strongly supported by the old of all political outlooks, and they are all voters. We turned in thousands of signatures to the Board of Supervisors.
Thus, the Declaration of Public Policy could read something like this:
The people of San Francisco oppose the air show of the Navy's Blue Angels over the City and County of San Francisco and demand that they never be invited to conduct an air show over the City and County of San Francisco again.
I guarantee you that statement will pass easily and that will end the Blue Death's air show and Fleet Week. Good riddance to both. Those of you who are active in electoral politics, please put this at the top of your agenda.
This year, we suffered through a total of some 13 hours of the criminal behavior of the Navy disturbing our peace all to glorify war. The military does not exist to entertain us; it exists to murder human beings to maximize the profits of the oil companies, munitions makers and other war profiteers. A soldier is by definition a paid, professional killer, and war is all about killing human beings or being killed. There is nothing thrilling or romantic about war and it is a profound waste of our tax dollars. We cannot have guns and butter and it is long overdue that we put an end to the guns and increase the butter, which should be shared as equitably as possible with everyone. Blessed are the peacemakers, for we, and only we, can and shall inherit the earth, if we act fast enough.
This 20th year of these illegal low flights over a heavily populated area, wasting tax dollars and oil, glorifying war and making terrible noise can be the beginning of the end if we make it a campaign issue in the mayor's race of November 2003 by putting a Declaration of Policy on that ballot. The cheapest way is to have 4 supervisors put it on the ballot. We can achieve majority approval of this policy if we concentrate on the issue of the Blue Death flights. Without those flights, Fleet Week cannot draw the crowds and will not return as it is too expensive to bring those ships from San DIego and Hawaii, and we have no bases here for them since our peace movement has achieved closing of the navy bases in the area.
We can achieve the goal of ending the terrorist Navy's Blue Death flights as we will have a very broad ideological spectrum of support, with the support being heaviest among the voting population, namely the over age 40 population and the better-educated young people. Our public sentiment petition circulated in 1999 was strongly supported by the old of all political outlooks, and they are all voters. We turned in thousands of signatures to the Board of Supervisors.
Thus, the Declaration of Public Policy could read something like this:
The people of San Francisco oppose the air show of the Navy's Blue Angels over the City and County of San Francisco and demand that they never be invited to conduct an air show over the City and County of San Francisco again.
I guarantee you that statement will pass easily and that will end the Blue Death's air show and Fleet Week. Good riddance to both. Those of you who are active in electoral politics, please put this at the top of your agenda.
This year, we suffered through a total of some 13 hours of the criminal behavior of the Navy disturbing our peace all to glorify war. The military does not exist to entertain us; it exists to murder human beings to maximize the profits of the oil companies, munitions makers and other war profiteers. A soldier is by definition a paid, professional killer, and war is all about killing human beings or being killed. There is nothing thrilling or romantic about war and it is a profound waste of our tax dollars. We cannot have guns and butter and it is long overdue that we put an end to the guns and increase the butter, which should be shared as equitably as possible with everyone. Blessed are the peacemakers, for we, and only we, can and shall inherit the earth, if we act fast enough.
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I HATE THOSE DEATH MACHINES BRINGING THUNDER AND TERROR FROM ABOVE!!!
The only good thing I can think is, we get to feel what it's like to live under the threat of U.S. bombing.
Every day I bicycle around and the warmachines on the ground (cars) make life hell for me and everything and everyone I love. I don't need it times 1,000 careening overhead as well.
UNPLUG THE WARMACHINES!
One small thing, the "guns v. butter" metaphor deserves a rethinking. Butter is not exactly a symbol of nutrition, and while there are nut butters and etc., butter evokes images of factory farming of living creatures -- to me, symptomatic of the inherent sickness which allowed the rise of the prison and military industrial complex.
*ding*
The only good thing I can think is, we get to feel what it's like to live under the threat of U.S. bombing.
Every day I bicycle around and the warmachines on the ground (cars) make life hell for me and everything and everyone I love. I don't need it times 1,000 careening overhead as well.
UNPLUG THE WARMACHINES!
One small thing, the "guns v. butter" metaphor deserves a rethinking. Butter is not exactly a symbol of nutrition, and while there are nut butters and etc., butter evokes images of factory farming of living creatures -- to me, symptomatic of the inherent sickness which allowed the rise of the prison and military industrial complex.
*ding*
Simpletons.
This article was hilarious. Are you sure it wasn't written for The Onion?
Maybe you should just stay indoors where the big mean planes can't scare you.
Maybe you should just stay indoors where the big mean planes can't scare you.
Wonderful, you had me going for second at the start of the third paragraph but a simply wonderful parady of the wackos.
The author is insane.
I'm a veteran of the U.S. Army and take great exception to the charge that my service was equivilant to being a mob hitman.
I passed out food in Somalia, help liberate a countrey from occupiers, and during the Cold War stood guard in West Germany and South Korea. Two nations that understood what the actual price of liberty is.
Outside of this article, and the handful of demonstrators at Fleet Week events, I've meet no one in the City who agrees with this proposal. People might complain about the sound, but the Angels are a joy to watch.
See you at Fleet Week '03!
I passed out food in Somalia, help liberate a countrey from occupiers, and during the Cold War stood guard in West Germany and South Korea. Two nations that understood what the actual price of liberty is.
Outside of this article, and the handful of demonstrators at Fleet Week events, I've meet no one in the City who agrees with this proposal. People might complain about the sound, but the Angels are a joy to watch.
See you at Fleet Week '03!
Depite the fact (or perhaps because of the fact) that I am a Vietnam-era military veteran, I have serious doubts about the direction of our foreign policy. I am not saying that I believe we should NOT invade Iraq and eliminate Saddam, but I believe that we Americans need to know more.
It's becaue of my own lack of knowledge about such affairs that i welcome reasoned debate on all aspects of our foreign affairs.
But when the best the anti-war side can come up is this fool carping against the noisy Blue Angels, I realize that the same anti-war side has pretty much abdicated its responsibility and opportunity to provide a well-thought-out opposition to the United States' foreign policy.
Are yo suer this guy isn't a DoD plant?
It's becaue of my own lack of knowledge about such affairs that i welcome reasoned debate on all aspects of our foreign affairs.
But when the best the anti-war side can come up is this fool carping against the noisy Blue Angels, I realize that the same anti-war side has pretty much abdicated its responsibility and opportunity to provide a well-thought-out opposition to the United States' foreign policy.
Are yo suer this guy isn't a DoD plant?
Well, I was right. There is one born every minute.
This one takes the cake.
Who does he think secured his right to write this inane self-centered drivel?
Freedom is not free
<sigh>
This one takes the cake.
Who does he think secured his right to write this inane self-centered drivel?
Freedom is not free
<sigh>
" no one ever lost money underestimating
the intelligence of the american people"
And the brown nosing(to the pentagon) of the
media has also done a superb job of mind-fucking
the public until they can't remember yesterday
with the lies of our leaders ignored or swept
under the carpet.
the intelligence of the american people"
And the brown nosing(to the pentagon) of the
media has also done a superb job of mind-fucking
the public until they can't remember yesterday
with the lies of our leaders ignored or swept
under the carpet.
will be sorry when an accident happens. of course, being the good patriots that they are, they'll forget in a matter of days, and the show will go on, minus a few hundred people who were watching from a skyscraper downtown.
Are you gay or straight? Do you like to smoke, drink, dance, listen to popular music? Do you believe in freedom of speech? Do you believe in free thought? Do you believe in some or all of the Constitution of the United States of America? If your answer to any of these questions is "yes", then irrespective of your personal beliefs with regard to tolerance or your absolute commitment to "peace", your ass is gonna be dogmeat along with everyone else's when Mr Bin Shady comes a-calling. So whilst you're bleating and whining like an old woman, just ask yourself who it is who would rush to the aid of its fellow citizens at the risk of their own lives if their (YOUR) way of life was threatened. How would you feel if some unimagineable horror suddenly became reality and threatened the lives of you and everyone else in San Francisco ? Who you gonna call? Ghostbusters? If I were in charge of the military I'd draft your scuzzy, yellow-assed self and pack you off to Afghanistan and put you on shit-burning detail for the next year!
Warning! Rumor has it that men in blue suits, called "officers" are roaming the streets of the city carrying deadly weapons!! We must band together to make sure these potential death-dealers are banned forever from our fair city and make it safe for crack smoking, public defecation and robbery! Our loyalty to the Constitution demands it!!!!
For more information:
http://conundrum.blogspot.com
Ding dong!
Peacenik - “This 20th year of these illegal low flights over a heavily populated area . . .”
The flights are not illegal. They have FAA approval.
Peacenik - “. . . wasting tax dollars . . .”
No more so than the City of SF wasting money on panhandlers, professional con men, uh er . . . “the homeless” that swarm over the city.
Peacenik – “. . . the terrorist Navy's Blue Death flights . . .”
A bit hyperbolic, wouldn’t you think? Actually, it’s a quite humorous use of words.
Peacenik – “ . . . with the support being heaviest among the voting population, namely the over age 40 population . . .”
Yep, there’s a whole lot of old hippies and hippie wannabes that have been aching to hit the streets again in protest. Only this time, they’ll wear Nikes and Air Jordans instead of water buffalo sandals.
Peacenik – “ . . . and the better-educated young people.”
I see . . . non-support of your agenda is only by the “stupid and ignorant” people of our society. That’s typical . . . you don’t agree with me, therefore, you are an uneducated idiot.
Peacenik – “The military does not exist to entertain us; it exists to murder human beings . . . “
Killing in combat is not murder. Although it is possible that murder can be committed during war (e.g. against POW’s, non-combatants, fellow soldiers or an unarmed enemy), incidences of murder are reported up the chain of command speedily and the accused is detained and a full investigation and/or trial occurs.
Peacenik – “. . . to maximize the profits of the oil companies, munitions makers and other war profiteers.”
How cliché . . . you can do better than that. It’s old, it’s trite and it’s outlived its usefulness as a vacant emotional argument used by the “enlightened” of the 1960’s.
Peacenik – “A soldier is by definition a paid, professional killer . . .”
Of which I am one . . . and am proud of it.
Peacenik – “. . . and war is all about killing human beings or being killed.”
That’s the only correct sentence in your shrill, whiny diatribe.
Peacenik – “There is nothing thrilling or romantic about war . . .”
Is this the voice of experience talking? How would you be able to make that statement without having participated in armed conflict. My educated guess is that you’re talking out of your ass.
Peacenik – “. . . and it is a profound waste of our tax dollars.”
And you are an oxygen thief whose mere existence robs breathing air from truly deserving members of the military.
Peacenik – “. . . it is long overdue that we . . . increase the butter . . .”
Hmmmm . . . shades of “Last Tango in Paris” . . . . .
Peacenik – “Blessed are the peacemakers, for we, and only we, can and shall inherit the earth . . .”
My personal peacemaker is a .45 ACP. What do you prefer?
The flights are not illegal. They have FAA approval.
Peacenik - “. . . wasting tax dollars . . .”
No more so than the City of SF wasting money on panhandlers, professional con men, uh er . . . “the homeless” that swarm over the city.
Peacenik – “. . . the terrorist Navy's Blue Death flights . . .”
A bit hyperbolic, wouldn’t you think? Actually, it’s a quite humorous use of words.
Peacenik – “ . . . with the support being heaviest among the voting population, namely the over age 40 population . . .”
Yep, there’s a whole lot of old hippies and hippie wannabes that have been aching to hit the streets again in protest. Only this time, they’ll wear Nikes and Air Jordans instead of water buffalo sandals.
Peacenik – “ . . . and the better-educated young people.”
I see . . . non-support of your agenda is only by the “stupid and ignorant” people of our society. That’s typical . . . you don’t agree with me, therefore, you are an uneducated idiot.
Peacenik – “The military does not exist to entertain us; it exists to murder human beings . . . “
Killing in combat is not murder. Although it is possible that murder can be committed during war (e.g. against POW’s, non-combatants, fellow soldiers or an unarmed enemy), incidences of murder are reported up the chain of command speedily and the accused is detained and a full investigation and/or trial occurs.
Peacenik – “. . . to maximize the profits of the oil companies, munitions makers and other war profiteers.”
How cliché . . . you can do better than that. It’s old, it’s trite and it’s outlived its usefulness as a vacant emotional argument used by the “enlightened” of the 1960’s.
Peacenik – “A soldier is by definition a paid, professional killer . . .”
Of which I am one . . . and am proud of it.
Peacenik – “. . . and war is all about killing human beings or being killed.”
That’s the only correct sentence in your shrill, whiny diatribe.
Peacenik – “There is nothing thrilling or romantic about war . . .”
Is this the voice of experience talking? How would you be able to make that statement without having participated in armed conflict. My educated guess is that you’re talking out of your ass.
Peacenik – “. . . and it is a profound waste of our tax dollars.”
And you are an oxygen thief whose mere existence robs breathing air from truly deserving members of the military.
Peacenik – “. . . it is long overdue that we . . . increase the butter . . .”
Hmmmm . . . shades of “Last Tango in Paris” . . . . .
Peacenik – “Blessed are the peacemakers, for we, and only we, can and shall inherit the earth . . .”
My personal peacemaker is a .45 ACP. What do you prefer?
the above comment could have been made by a Nazi stormtrooper, geographical location and period technology notwithstanding.
. . . but it wasn't. The above (your) comment is yet more hyperbolic crap. Can you not think of anything new? Come on, now. Let's be inventive? After all, you are among the "enlightened" of society trying to educate us Neanderthals. Put that college education to good use, like your Mommy and Daddy intended. :D
it could have been, and "Rocky" can't see anything wrong with that. Naw, its ok; the period technology and locations are different, so who cares, as long as the philosophy is the same, right Rocky?
. . . is that the best you can do? If so, I think you got cheated out of an eduction. Better ask for a refund.
guess you have no answer other than cheap rhetorical gimmicks Rocky. This isn't high school.
by the way, i think you got cheated too .. its called "education" not "eduction"
Wow . . . “guess you have no answer other than cheap rhetorical gimmicks Rocky. This isn't high school.” That’s amazing, coming from somebody whose idea of discussing an issue is comparing people to Nazism and pasting cheesy images. I’d call that cheap rhetoric of the high school variety.
So, since when do the “peacemakers” become so vitriolic? Aren’t you supposed to love me as a fellow human being, or is that all a gimmick? From what I’ve seen in my life, so-called pacifists are among the meanest people I’ve ever encountered. Your perception that those on the other side of the fence are "stormtroopers," truly convoluted. You’re talking about your friends, relatives and neighbors when you talk of those in service. It makes me sad that brave men and women are engaged in hazardous duty to protect the people back home, including protecting those that snipe from behind in a cowardly way and including protecting those whose own miserable souls are not worthy to launder the underwear of said servicemen and women.
Oh, and by the way, nitpicking over minor spelling and grammatical errors in a message composed on the fly is usually a sign that all other arguments already used are vacuous and have failed. As one of the self-proclaimed “enlightened,” you most likely should have already known this. After all, this isn’t high school, is it? ;)
So, since when do the “peacemakers” become so vitriolic? Aren’t you supposed to love me as a fellow human being, or is that all a gimmick? From what I’ve seen in my life, so-called pacifists are among the meanest people I’ve ever encountered. Your perception that those on the other side of the fence are "stormtroopers," truly convoluted. You’re talking about your friends, relatives and neighbors when you talk of those in service. It makes me sad that brave men and women are engaged in hazardous duty to protect the people back home, including protecting those that snipe from behind in a cowardly way and including protecting those whose own miserable souls are not worthy to launder the underwear of said servicemen and women.
Oh, and by the way, nitpicking over minor spelling and grammatical errors in a message composed on the fly is usually a sign that all other arguments already used are vacuous and have failed. As one of the self-proclaimed “enlightened,” you most likely should have already known this. After all, this isn’t high school, is it? ;)
It’s been nice chatting with you. After I help one of my soldiers (whose Mom died yesterday) make funeral arrangements, I plan on kicking in the doors of unsuspecting peaceniks. Should prove to be an interesting day. Adios.
Peace be unto you and yours. ;)
Peace be unto you and yours. ;)
<i>Peacenik – “. . . and war is all about killing human beings or being killed.” </i><p>Don't forget breaking things. Very important to break stuff also.
Most people opposed to the first Gulf War that I met were opposed to all wars for religious reasons. There were a good number of the religious left in those protests from Quakers to Catholic priests...
But since 9/11 that part of the population has largely been silent. The American population is now much more cynical (less naive) than it once was and those against all wars now seem even more in the minority...
But, the new protests are still large! For the most part those of us who oppose the new war with Iraq do so formany reasons. Here are three I can think of off the top of my head:
1. Its an attack on someone who had nothing to do with 9/11 and will increase terrorism since most of the world will see it as an act of US agression
2. The number of civlians who will die in a war on Iraq will be large and the end result will probably not be democratic
3. Every war makes new wars more likely and we are scared at the direction the US is headed
Many new antiwar activists grew up in the 1980s amid news report after newsreport of US backed massacres in Central America. Despite their flaws we looked up to heros like the FSLN and FMLN and some even looked up to groups like the Shining Path. We remember that Viet Nam was a war against a people and while most of us dont like the Stalinists who rule there, most of us supported the fight against the US that ultimately lead to the war's end.
So, most of us who oppose this war in Iraq can not be called peacenicks. In our hearts we support wars against US imperalism. Iraq may seem complicated in that Hussien is a enemy of the Left in the Middle East, but ends don't always justify means and a war in Iraq will only make things worse. Aside from the direct results in the Middle East a dominoe theory of the Left is starting to emerge; if one act of US agression can stand, who will be next?
Soldiers are frequently victims of war (although wars effect civlians in such high numbers I would not say they are the main victims). We know many join the US military for economic reasons and may not realize the evils of US foreign polciy until too late. This has created a mixed message from the modern antiwar movement. We hesitate on condemning solders in the US and condemn even verbal attacks on them, but many of us support attacks on them in other countries.
My opinion is that we need to discourage people from becoming soldiers, encourage soldiers to change jobs, and work with Vets who oppose the war. At the same time we should realize that with the end of Posse Comitatus we may be lead into situations where we are even directly oppressed by the US military in the US. While the US military has equipment, they are pretty inept as an organization and even individual members are usually people who could not find jobs elsewhere. Hopefully, if the time comes when the American people must fight for our own freedom against the US military, we will stand united and the US military will crumble under mismanagement and the disillusion of people who just joined for the money.
But since 9/11 that part of the population has largely been silent. The American population is now much more cynical (less naive) than it once was and those against all wars now seem even more in the minority...
But, the new protests are still large! For the most part those of us who oppose the new war with Iraq do so formany reasons. Here are three I can think of off the top of my head:
1. Its an attack on someone who had nothing to do with 9/11 and will increase terrorism since most of the world will see it as an act of US agression
2. The number of civlians who will die in a war on Iraq will be large and the end result will probably not be democratic
3. Every war makes new wars more likely and we are scared at the direction the US is headed
Many new antiwar activists grew up in the 1980s amid news report after newsreport of US backed massacres in Central America. Despite their flaws we looked up to heros like the FSLN and FMLN and some even looked up to groups like the Shining Path. We remember that Viet Nam was a war against a people and while most of us dont like the Stalinists who rule there, most of us supported the fight against the US that ultimately lead to the war's end.
So, most of us who oppose this war in Iraq can not be called peacenicks. In our hearts we support wars against US imperalism. Iraq may seem complicated in that Hussien is a enemy of the Left in the Middle East, but ends don't always justify means and a war in Iraq will only make things worse. Aside from the direct results in the Middle East a dominoe theory of the Left is starting to emerge; if one act of US agression can stand, who will be next?
Soldiers are frequently victims of war (although wars effect civlians in such high numbers I would not say they are the main victims). We know many join the US military for economic reasons and may not realize the evils of US foreign polciy until too late. This has created a mixed message from the modern antiwar movement. We hesitate on condemning solders in the US and condemn even verbal attacks on them, but many of us support attacks on them in other countries.
My opinion is that we need to discourage people from becoming soldiers, encourage soldiers to change jobs, and work with Vets who oppose the war. At the same time we should realize that with the end of Posse Comitatus we may be lead into situations where we are even directly oppressed by the US military in the US. While the US military has equipment, they are pretty inept as an organization and even individual members are usually people who could not find jobs elsewhere. Hopefully, if the time comes when the American people must fight for our own freedom against the US military, we will stand united and the US military will crumble under mismanagement and the disillusion of people who just joined for the money.
oh yeah .. i forgot .. the military has a monopoly on grief and suffering in their families. Sorry, Rocky. I guess though that when you bomb Iraqi mothers into little charred bits from 50 000 feet up in an armoured stealth plane in that truly heroic and glorious way, they're not really human and their grief is not real because they don't have SUVs. My apologies to all the poor military folks out there cuz they have mortal families unlike the rest of us.
I swear, people that write this garbage must be on drugs......
"Mommy, the big scary planes frighten me"
"The USA is bad, their big mean war machines scare me"
You don't like the big, mean "war machines"? Then take your ass to a place where they don't have any "war machines."
Get over it knucklehead.
"Mommy, the big scary planes frighten me"
"The USA is bad, their big mean war machines scare me"
You don't like the big, mean "war machines"? Then take your ass to a place where they don't have any "war machines."
Get over it knucklehead.
This has got to be some sort of a joke, right?
"Mommy, the big, mean, scary war machines frighten me"
"They make too much noise, they disturbed my peace"
You don't like the "war machines" then take your ass to a place that doesn't have any. I'll be the first to stand in line to buy you a one way ticket.
What a meathead.
"Mommy, the big, mean, scary war machines frighten me"
"They make too much noise, they disturbed my peace"
You don't like the "war machines" then take your ass to a place that doesn't have any. I'll be the first to stand in line to buy you a one way ticket.
What a meathead.
That's a pretty sad attempt at making a non-point. Where I live is where I live and if I want some fucking peace and quiet I deserve it. I pay taxes for that, not for some useless bozos flying around in my money. Course, here all the Nintendo kiddies just love it, but they don't pay taxes or they are paid by taxes ... parasites, even the military. Enhanced welfare with toys if you ask me.
Thank you. You made me laugh.
Nobody asked you.
Apparently, the only bozo here is you and your flunky's. I've seen your type before.
You guys are about the most naive bunch I've ever run across on the internet, and it's a big place.
I reiterate, if you don't like the "war toys", go to a place that doesn't have them. Then you won't have to pay taxes for them, or support the folks who operate them. Plus, I'm sure you'll be a lot safer where-ever that is.
Let me know, I've got the money all ready for your ticket. Perhaps a nice place like Somalia? I'm sure you'd like it there, they don't really have a government running around with "war toys" (heck, they don't have a real government at all) or any soldiers on "welfare" so you'd be all set. You'd just have to avoid the warlords running around murdering people and taking people hostage then selling them off as slaves to other warlords.
I'm sure you'll enjoy the food there also, lord knows there is so much of it.
Like I said, let me know where you'd like to go, because it's clear that you're not happy with your government or your country (nor the people that defend it you ungrateful sod), so I'd like to help you find a place you would be happy with.
You guys are about the most naive bunch I've ever run across on the internet, and it's a big place.
I reiterate, if you don't like the "war toys", go to a place that doesn't have them. Then you won't have to pay taxes for them, or support the folks who operate them. Plus, I'm sure you'll be a lot safer where-ever that is.
Let me know, I've got the money all ready for your ticket. Perhaps a nice place like Somalia? I'm sure you'd like it there, they don't really have a government running around with "war toys" (heck, they don't have a real government at all) or any soldiers on "welfare" so you'd be all set. You'd just have to avoid the warlords running around murdering people and taking people hostage then selling them off as slaves to other warlords.
I'm sure you'll enjoy the food there also, lord knows there is so much of it.
Like I said, let me know where you'd like to go, because it's clear that you're not happy with your government or your country (nor the people that defend it you ungrateful sod), so I'd like to help you find a place you would be happy with.
by ..... • Wednesday October 16, 2002 at 07:21 AM
mailto:
oh yeah .. i forgot .. the military has a monopoly on grief and suffering in their families. Sorry, Rocky. I guess though that when you bomb Iraqi mothers into little charred bits from 50 000 feet up in an armoured stealth plane in that truly heroic and glorious way, they're not really human and their grief is not real because they don't have SUVs. My apologies to all the poor military folks out there cuz they have mortal families unlike the rest of us.
...........
by .......... • Wednesday October 16, 2002 at 08:38 AM
mailto:
That's a pretty sad attempt at making a non-point. Where I live is where I live and if I want some fucking peace and quiet I deserve it. I pay taxes for that, not for some useless bozos flying around in my money. Course, here all the Nintendo kiddies just love it, but they don't pay taxes or they are paid by taxes ... parasites, even the military. Enhanced welfare with toys if you ask me.
Note: In the 7:21 AM post, the brave hater of all things military spelled the word “armored” in the Brtish Commonwealth manner – “armoured.” The brave hater of all things military is more than likely not even a US citizen, judging from the writing style.
Note: In the 8:38 AM post, the brave hater of all things military used the phrase “bozos flying around in my money.” If the brave hater of all things military is not a US citizen, then it is a lie that any bozos are flying around in “his tax money.”
Mr. Brave hater of all things military. Please identify yourself and your (non-US) nation of citizenship.
mailto:
oh yeah .. i forgot .. the military has a monopoly on grief and suffering in their families. Sorry, Rocky. I guess though that when you bomb Iraqi mothers into little charred bits from 50 000 feet up in an armoured stealth plane in that truly heroic and glorious way, they're not really human and their grief is not real because they don't have SUVs. My apologies to all the poor military folks out there cuz they have mortal families unlike the rest of us.
...........
by .......... • Wednesday October 16, 2002 at 08:38 AM
mailto:
That's a pretty sad attempt at making a non-point. Where I live is where I live and if I want some fucking peace and quiet I deserve it. I pay taxes for that, not for some useless bozos flying around in my money. Course, here all the Nintendo kiddies just love it, but they don't pay taxes or they are paid by taxes ... parasites, even the military. Enhanced welfare with toys if you ask me.
Note: In the 7:21 AM post, the brave hater of all things military spelled the word “armored” in the Brtish Commonwealth manner – “armoured.” The brave hater of all things military is more than likely not even a US citizen, judging from the writing style.
Note: In the 8:38 AM post, the brave hater of all things military used the phrase “bozos flying around in my money.” If the brave hater of all things military is not a US citizen, then it is a lie that any bozos are flying around in “his tax money.”
Mr. Brave hater of all things military. Please identify yourself and your (non-US) nation of citizenship.
Flying around in "armored" airplanes at 50,000 feet? Try 10,000 feet or less, and they ain't armored. Besides, a 23MM round can pass through most armor anyways, and most of those guns and missiles can shoot well above the normal attack altitudes of US aircraft.
You can speak all day if you like, portraying US pilots as cowards that hide behind technology while willfully bombing innocent civilians, but the truth is exactly the opposite. Why do you think the military spends so much on developing precision weapons? No other military bothers with those things...they are just content to level the entire city. But for some crazy reason the US military is obsessed with the idea of trying to limit the destruction. But I guess it's all in vain if idiots like yourself won't even try to look beyond the typical peacenik rehtoric.
And until you actually fly military aircraft, your comments are nothing more than conjecture based upon your own biases against the military.
As for wasting YOUR tax dollars...each and every person who's in the military pays taxes too. So don't give me that lame exuse of "I pay your salary". You don't pay my salary any more than I do by buying your employer's goods or services.
I especially liked the one that said they looked up to the FMLN or the Shining Path. Hey, have you EVER been to Central or South America? I have. And MOST of the people down there like Americans. They DON'T like leftist/communist/marxist/socialist/violent "revolutionaries". Your "model" leftist groups in C. and S. America have committed by far the most atrocities than any US-backed group, it's just the liberal establishment that controls organizations like the Human Rights Watch, Amnesty, and even the UN don't like bad press so they convienently look the other way while trying to nail the US on any and every violation.
I've been to those countries. I've talked to everyday people down there. And I have NEVER met anyone who hated Americans. But, nearly all of them are glad that the leftist revolutionary groups have been (for the most part) driven back.
You can speak all day if you like, portraying US pilots as cowards that hide behind technology while willfully bombing innocent civilians, but the truth is exactly the opposite. Why do you think the military spends so much on developing precision weapons? No other military bothers with those things...they are just content to level the entire city. But for some crazy reason the US military is obsessed with the idea of trying to limit the destruction. But I guess it's all in vain if idiots like yourself won't even try to look beyond the typical peacenik rehtoric.
And until you actually fly military aircraft, your comments are nothing more than conjecture based upon your own biases against the military.
As for wasting YOUR tax dollars...each and every person who's in the military pays taxes too. So don't give me that lame exuse of "I pay your salary". You don't pay my salary any more than I do by buying your employer's goods or services.
I especially liked the one that said they looked up to the FMLN or the Shining Path. Hey, have you EVER been to Central or South America? I have. And MOST of the people down there like Americans. They DON'T like leftist/communist/marxist/socialist/violent "revolutionaries". Your "model" leftist groups in C. and S. America have committed by far the most atrocities than any US-backed group, it's just the liberal establishment that controls organizations like the Human Rights Watch, Amnesty, and even the UN don't like bad press so they convienently look the other way while trying to nail the US on any and every violation.
I've been to those countries. I've talked to everyday people down there. And I have NEVER met anyone who hated Americans. But, nearly all of them are glad that the leftist revolutionary groups have been (for the most part) driven back.
Hey Pacer, since you're such an expert on Central America, why don't you tell us a bit about the CIA overthrow of the Arbenz government in Guatamala in 1954? How many Indians did the US client dictators kill in the following forty years? How many did the US' client Somoza in Nicaragua kill? How many did the ex-Somocita contras, organized by the CIA, kill after Somoza was overthrown? Tell us about all the coffee farmers in Nicaragua that are malnourished as the global commodity price of coffee has plummeted in the past year. How many El Salvadorans were killed by US-clients in the 1980s? Tell us about poverty in Central America under the beneficient rule of capital. I'm waiting jackass.
As to the US taking great measures to insure that civilians are safe while it bombs the shit out of various countries: What a laugh. The US killed approximately 5,000 in Serbia, a couple thousand in Panama, thousands in Afghanistan and many thousands in Iraq. But these only account for a small percentage of civilians that die when the US empire strikes, yes, in utterly cowardly fashion from on high. In Iraq, the United States DELIBERATELY destroyed the civilian infrastructure, including water sanitation. Tens of thousands have died as a result of diseases carried through untreated water. The US couldn't care less.
In Vietnam, the US killed an estimated 3,000,000 civilians. It's "brave" bombings of Cambodia killed thousands. In Indonesia, in the 60's, the US engineered a coup that resulted in a half million leftists and progressives being slaughtered. The list goes on and on.
As to the US taking great measures to insure that civilians are safe while it bombs the shit out of various countries: What a laugh. The US killed approximately 5,000 in Serbia, a couple thousand in Panama, thousands in Afghanistan and many thousands in Iraq. But these only account for a small percentage of civilians that die when the US empire strikes, yes, in utterly cowardly fashion from on high. In Iraq, the United States DELIBERATELY destroyed the civilian infrastructure, including water sanitation. Tens of thousands have died as a result of diseases carried through untreated water. The US couldn't care less.
In Vietnam, the US killed an estimated 3,000,000 civilians. It's "brave" bombings of Cambodia killed thousands. In Indonesia, in the 60's, the US engineered a coup that resulted in a half million leftists and progressives being slaughtered. The list goes on and on.
DUMBER AND DUMBEST WROTE THIS. OR THE THREE JAYS IN GAY TOWN. NOT TOO BRIGHT...
"You guys are about the most naive bunch I've ever run across on the internet, and it's a big place.
I reiterate, if you don't like the "war toys", go to a place that doesn't have them. "
which brings me to a point. If you don't like the opinions around here, how is it you are unable to avoid the place?
I reiterate, if you don't like the "war toys", go to a place that doesn't have them. "
which brings me to a point. If you don't like the opinions around here, how is it you are unable to avoid the place?
The price of liberty is eternal vigilence. Look at history. Democracys from Athens to Rome to 20th century Europe fell due to lack of vigilence. Switzerland has remained free hundreds of years only due to a strong commitment to universal military training and favorable terrain. There will always be those who wish to rule others by force. You need only look into the microcosm of an American High School for an example. If a free people will not stand to defend it's own freedom, it has already surrendered it. If it will not aid another people in itsstruggle, it will find itself alone against the same oppressor. You may choose to live in slavery. I do not.
the vigilance spoken of was meant, in its original context, to apply to the gov't, i.e. the price of freedom is that you must keep a close eye on those in power.
Washington said, "Those who would sacrifice liberty for security shall have, and indeed deserve, neither."
I think he was talking about you.
Washington said, "Those who would sacrifice liberty for security shall have, and indeed deserve, neither."
I think he was talking about you.
Nobody said I don't like the opinions around here. As a matter of fact, it seems most of the opinions on this thread are more in line with what I think anyhow.
This is a free country, and you're still welcome to leave if and when you choose if you don't like the way it's run (by a government elected by the people) or what happens here. I, and many others, personally defend your right to do so. We also defend your right to post the asinine bullshit you and your buddies post on this forum. Apparently, you feel comfortable insulting the very people who ensure your freedom by calling them uneducated people on welfare. Funny thing too, I was so uneducated when I got off of active military duty after my enlistment (and went on reserve duty) that the only job I was able to find was as a full time project manager for an engineering firm (while going to school nights to work on my engineering degree). I probably make more money then you do, that's how uneducated I am. Boy, I must be a really uneducated guy who was unable to find a job after my military service, eh? Actually, one of the main reasons I got my job was the fact that I had military service. You see, my employer knew I would be reliable, could handle multiple tasks, would be on time, and could handle stress.
Just to clarify, I was directed here by a friend who found this thread highly amusing (as do I). Trust me, I don't frequent a place like this, and I'm sure I won't be around here for long (really isn't my kind of place). You see, I've got to go play with my war toys. Then, maybe I'll go play nazi storm trooper and kill some innocent people since I'm an uneducated slob who couldn't find another job.
Another thing, if you don't like me coming back to post, you and your buddies should start your own private forum, and you guys can just have a big old peacenik circle jerk without any of my interruptions. As I see it, this is an open public forum, and if they didn't want my opinion, they'd make it private. Maybe you should contact the site administrators and ask them to exclude folks such as myself so you and all your peacenik buddies can massage each other’s egos (and whatever else you guys might massage).
This is a free country, and you're still welcome to leave if and when you choose if you don't like the way it's run (by a government elected by the people) or what happens here. I, and many others, personally defend your right to do so. We also defend your right to post the asinine bullshit you and your buddies post on this forum. Apparently, you feel comfortable insulting the very people who ensure your freedom by calling them uneducated people on welfare. Funny thing too, I was so uneducated when I got off of active military duty after my enlistment (and went on reserve duty) that the only job I was able to find was as a full time project manager for an engineering firm (while going to school nights to work on my engineering degree). I probably make more money then you do, that's how uneducated I am. Boy, I must be a really uneducated guy who was unable to find a job after my military service, eh? Actually, one of the main reasons I got my job was the fact that I had military service. You see, my employer knew I would be reliable, could handle multiple tasks, would be on time, and could handle stress.
Just to clarify, I was directed here by a friend who found this thread highly amusing (as do I). Trust me, I don't frequent a place like this, and I'm sure I won't be around here for long (really isn't my kind of place). You see, I've got to go play with my war toys. Then, maybe I'll go play nazi storm trooper and kill some innocent people since I'm an uneducated slob who couldn't find another job.
Another thing, if you don't like me coming back to post, you and your buddies should start your own private forum, and you guys can just have a big old peacenik circle jerk without any of my interruptions. As I see it, this is an open public forum, and if they didn't want my opinion, they'd make it private. Maybe you should contact the site administrators and ask them to exclude folks such as myself so you and all your peacenik buddies can massage each other’s egos (and whatever else you guys might massage).
I have no problem with a small military that is truly used for defense. But this doesn't apply to the US at all. Somehow, soldiers and citizens always buy the rationalizations that by going halfway around the world, we're defending ourselves.
Were the NLF in South Vietnam, once they had taken power, going to bomb the US? If the socialists had won power in Latin America countries, would invading the US have been the next thing on their minds after feeding their people, clothing their people, and giving them decent medical care?
Were the NLF in South Vietnam, once they had taken power, going to bomb the US? If the socialists had won power in Latin America countries, would invading the US have been the next thing on their minds after feeding their people, clothing their people, and giving them decent medical care?
'If the socialists had won power in Latin America countries, ...after feeding their people, clothing their people, and giving them decent medical care?'
If we've learned anything from socialism, it's that the primary concern of those in charge is to feed, clothe and provide medical care for their people. That's why there are so many people standing in line outside the embassies of socialist countries to petition for citizenship. Lines are miles and miles long. Sometimes traffic has to be rerouted taking drivers hundreds of miles out of their way just get get around the lines of these embassies. Can't tell you how many people have died launching boats from south Florida to face dangerous waters to cross over and live in the paradise known as Cuba. Happens all the time. Thousands upon thousands of boats every week to live in a world of hope that socialism brings.
If we've learned anything from socialism, it's that the primary concern of those in charge is to feed, clothe and provide medical care for their people. That's why there are so many people standing in line outside the embassies of socialist countries to petition for citizenship. Lines are miles and miles long. Sometimes traffic has to be rerouted taking drivers hundreds of miles out of their way just get get around the lines of these embassies. Can't tell you how many people have died launching boats from south Florida to face dangerous waters to cross over and live in the paradise known as Cuba. Happens all the time. Thousands upon thousands of boats every week to live in a world of hope that socialism brings.
"This is a free country, and you're still welcome to leave if and when you choose if you don't like the way it's run (by a government elected by the people) or what happens here. I, and many others, personally defend your right to do so. We also defend your right to post the asinine bullshit you and your buddies post "
(a) I don't consider your country "free" at all.
(b) I don't live in your country, but elections are not exactly something new to the rest of the world, contrary to what you think. By the way, what DID happen in Florida and why all the opposition to a national vote on your President rather than gerrymandering?
(c) as you can see, you don't defend my right to do anything, I post here just fine with or without the American military bomb - the - babies - for - freedom machine.
Does America still think it has a monopoly on elections and free speech? No wonder its stuck in LAST turn of the century and not moving ahead in this one.
(a) I don't consider your country "free" at all.
(b) I don't live in your country, but elections are not exactly something new to the rest of the world, contrary to what you think. By the way, what DID happen in Florida and why all the opposition to a national vote on your President rather than gerrymandering?
(c) as you can see, you don't defend my right to do anything, I post here just fine with or without the American military bomb - the - babies - for - freedom machine.
Does America still think it has a monopoly on elections and free speech? No wonder its stuck in LAST turn of the century and not moving ahead in this one.
So there are lots of people trying to get to the US from Cuba ... there are also lots of people trying to get to the US from capitalist countries in Latin America. Cuba has done a lot better than comparable Latin American countries at meeting its people's needs. Not that I love the political system. But there are still people in the US without adequate food, housing, medical care.
I've been waiting for something to happen
For a week or a month or a year
With the blood in the ink of the headlines
And the sound of the crowd in my ear
You might ask what it takes to remember
When you know that you've seen it before
Where a government lies to a people
And a country is drifting to war
And there's a shadow on the faces
Of the men who send the guns
To the wars that are fought in places
Where their business interest runs
On the radio talk shows and the T.V.
You hear one thing again and again
How the U.S.A. stands for freedom
And we come to the aid of a friend
But who are the ones that we call our friends--
These governments killing their own?
Or the people who finally can't take any more
And they pick up a gun or a brick or a stone
There are lives in the balance
There are people under fire
There are children at the cannons
And there is blood on the wire
There's a shadow on the faces
Of the men who fan the flames
Of the wars that are fought in places
Where we can't even say the names
They sell us the President the same way
They sell us our clothes and our cars
They sell us every thing from youth to religion
The same time they sell us our wars
I want to know who the men in the shadows are
I want to hear somebody asking them why
They can be counted on to tell us who our enemies are
But they're never the ones to fight or to die
And there are lives in the balance
There are people under fire
There are children at the cannons
And there is blood on the wire
For a week or a month or a year
With the blood in the ink of the headlines
And the sound of the crowd in my ear
You might ask what it takes to remember
When you know that you've seen it before
Where a government lies to a people
And a country is drifting to war
And there's a shadow on the faces
Of the men who send the guns
To the wars that are fought in places
Where their business interest runs
On the radio talk shows and the T.V.
You hear one thing again and again
How the U.S.A. stands for freedom
And we come to the aid of a friend
But who are the ones that we call our friends--
These governments killing their own?
Or the people who finally can't take any more
And they pick up a gun or a brick or a stone
There are lives in the balance
There are people under fire
There are children at the cannons
And there is blood on the wire
There's a shadow on the faces
Of the men who fan the flames
Of the wars that are fought in places
Where we can't even say the names
They sell us the President the same way
They sell us our clothes and our cars
They sell us every thing from youth to religion
The same time they sell us our wars
I want to know who the men in the shadows are
I want to hear somebody asking them why
They can be counted on to tell us who our enemies are
But they're never the ones to fight or to die
And there are lives in the balance
There are people under fire
There are children at the cannons
And there is blood on the wire
Please give Jackson Brown credit for
this one ( a major reason You wont hear him)
and it's powerful anti-war message.
As true now as it ever was.
this one ( a major reason You wont hear him)
and it's powerful anti-war message.
As true now as it ever was.
OK - I'll bite... Where *are* you from then?
Re: ...........
Ah, I see, well then why don't you go back to your own friggin' country then? And stay there since it is so much better than this one obviously. Why are you here? You must be here, or else the Blue Angels wouldn't bother you a whole hell of a lot.
Anyhow, there must be a reason you came here, and that reason must be something beneficial to you (or else you wouldn't be here, you'd have stayed in your own country), and it must be something that your home country doesn't have or isn't quite at the same level as it is in the US, so quit your whining and bitching. BTW, that makes it even easier to pack your bags and leave, since you're not a citizen anyhow. What's stopping you?
Re: socialism
Yeah, Cuba's great, I can see where their population is taken care of so much better by their government, than, say, the US, Canada of other western nations people are.
Point is, there are some homeless and/or starving people in EVERY country, as well as those without adequate medical care. On a whole, the US does very well amongst the nations of the world. In the top 5% easily. If a perfect utopia was that easy, there would be one already, and everybody would be breaking down the door to get in. Not happening, it's human nature unfortunately.
Nothing can be perfect, and there will always be people who are unfortunate. I know, because I grew up in such a family. The opportunities exist in this country for those willing to grab them, much the same as it is the world over.
Ah, I see, well then why don't you go back to your own friggin' country then? And stay there since it is so much better than this one obviously. Why are you here? You must be here, or else the Blue Angels wouldn't bother you a whole hell of a lot.
Anyhow, there must be a reason you came here, and that reason must be something beneficial to you (or else you wouldn't be here, you'd have stayed in your own country), and it must be something that your home country doesn't have or isn't quite at the same level as it is in the US, so quit your whining and bitching. BTW, that makes it even easier to pack your bags and leave, since you're not a citizen anyhow. What's stopping you?
Re: socialism
Yeah, Cuba's great, I can see where their population is taken care of so much better by their government, than, say, the US, Canada of other western nations people are.
Point is, there are some homeless and/or starving people in EVERY country, as well as those without adequate medical care. On a whole, the US does very well amongst the nations of the world. In the top 5% easily. If a perfect utopia was that easy, there would be one already, and everybody would be breaking down the door to get in. Not happening, it's human nature unfortunately.
Nothing can be perfect, and there will always be people who are unfortunate. I know, because I grew up in such a family. The opportunities exist in this country for those willing to grab them, much the same as it is the world over.
If you dont like antiwar protesters why dont you get the hell out of San Francisco. Dont come to our city and complain about things you knew were here before you came.
A majority of people around here oppose the US war on Iraq and do not care too much for people in uniform. If you can't deal with that why dont you move to someplace like Iraq where free speach isnt allowed? You seem like the type who would love living under a dictatorship where protests are banned and military shows of force are common place, so I'm sure youd love it there.
If you are not from here dont get on this message board and tell US how WE should behave regarding some irritating military airshow.
A majority of people around here oppose the US war on Iraq and do not care too much for people in uniform. If you can't deal with that why dont you move to someplace like Iraq where free speach isnt allowed? You seem like the type who would love living under a dictatorship where protests are banned and military shows of force are common place, so I'm sure youd love it there.
If you are not from here dont get on this message board and tell US how WE should behave regarding some irritating military airshow.
-->A majority of people around here oppose the US war on Iraq and do not care too much for people in uniform.
That's a lie. It's overexaturations like this that stick a knife into your causes, the inability to tell even the most simplist of truths. "A majority of the people", "Tens of thousand showed up", "Everyone believes that", etc etc etc. It undermines your whole effort. You're your own worst enemy.
That's a lie. It's overexaturations like this that stick a knife into your causes, the inability to tell even the most simplist of truths. "A majority of the people", "Tens of thousand showed up", "Everyone believes that", etc etc etc. It undermines your whole effort. You're your own worst enemy.
Most of the Bay Area opposes the war but most wont actually show up at a protest. There is a reason that most representative from this area voted against the Iraq resolution and the East Bay had the only representative to vote against the war in Afghanistan.
I live in the Castro section. Don't tell me what's the political climate is. I know better.
Bomb 'em back to the stone age baby!!!!
Kill 'em all, let God sort them out!!!!
Visit death and destruction upon everyone!!!!
Nuke the baby whales!!!!
Turn the redwoods into furniture and houses!!!!
YEAH!!!
Kill 'em all, let God sort them out!!!!
Visit death and destruction upon everyone!!!!
Nuke the baby whales!!!!
Turn the redwoods into furniture and houses!!!!
YEAH!!!
How many people showed up to Fleet Week vs the AntiWar Protest?
How many people didnt show up at fleet week and couldnt stand the noise?
How many people showed up to watch something free but would still vote against an air show over a densely populated area given the recent accidents at such shows? How many people liked watching the airplanes but might still oppose a war?
How many people showed up to watch something free but would still vote against an air show over a densely populated area given the recent accidents at such shows? How many people liked watching the airplanes but might still oppose a war?
Are you not the one who stated “If you are not from here dont get on this message board and tell US how WE should behave regarding some irritating military airshow”?
Judging by your most recent post you know that a lot of people do show up for the air show and support it. And that deep down it really bothers you that not everyone in the Bay Area holds the same options as you do.
In fact it bothers you so much that you took the time to cut and paste clips from different air shows in an attempt to prove your point.
Like most Bay Areaians you live by the credo of “Diversity is great as long as everyone holds the same opinions as me”
Judging by your most recent post you know that a lot of people do show up for the air show and support it. And that deep down it really bothers you that not everyone in the Bay Area holds the same options as you do.
In fact it bothers you so much that you took the time to cut and paste clips from different air shows in an attempt to prove your point.
Like most Bay Areaians you live by the credo of “Diversity is great as long as everyone holds the same opinions as me”
your full of shit.....have a nice day...richard
This is really basic stuff, but lots of people don't know it because they've so brainwashed that "Communism is bad and doesn't work". In any case, when I referred to socialists gaining power in a previous post, I was thinking more along the lines of Allende in Chile than Castro in Cuba.
> Yeah, Cuba's great, I can see where their population is
> taken care of so much better by their government, than,
> say, the US, Canada of other western nations people are.
So actually the infant-mortality rate, for example, is better in Cuba than for blacks in the US. But it's not really valid to compare Cuba with Canada and the US, because 50 years ago, before the Cuban revolution, it was dirt-poor, and the US and Canada were quite rich. A valid comparison is between Cuba and other Latin American countries that were similar fifty years ago. In this respect Cuba has done quite well.
> Point is, there are some homeless and/or starving people
> in EVERY country, as well as those without adequate
> medical care.
Wrong. In, say, Sweden, homelessness and starvation are unknown. In fact, homelessness only really became a problem in this country in the early Eighties, as rents rose, the inflation-adjusted minimum wage fell, and housing programs all but disappeared.
> On a whole, the US does very well amongst the nations of
> the world. In the top 5% easily. If a perfect utopia was
> that easy, there would be one already, and everybody would
> be breaking down the door to get in. Not happening, it's
> human nature unfortunately.
If a perfect utopia was possible but didn't allow a small elite to maintain huge power and wealth, it would be prevented in any way possible.
> Yeah, Cuba's great, I can see where their population is
> taken care of so much better by their government, than,
> say, the US, Canada of other western nations people are.
So actually the infant-mortality rate, for example, is better in Cuba than for blacks in the US. But it's not really valid to compare Cuba with Canada and the US, because 50 years ago, before the Cuban revolution, it was dirt-poor, and the US and Canada were quite rich. A valid comparison is between Cuba and other Latin American countries that were similar fifty years ago. In this respect Cuba has done quite well.
> Point is, there are some homeless and/or starving people
> in EVERY country, as well as those without adequate
> medical care.
Wrong. In, say, Sweden, homelessness and starvation are unknown. In fact, homelessness only really became a problem in this country in the early Eighties, as rents rose, the inflation-adjusted minimum wage fell, and housing programs all but disappeared.
> On a whole, the US does very well amongst the nations of
> the world. In the top 5% easily. If a perfect utopia was
> that easy, there would be one already, and everybody would
> be breaking down the door to get in. Not happening, it's
> human nature unfortunately.
If a perfect utopia was possible but didn't allow a small elite to maintain huge power and wealth, it would be prevented in any way possible.
July 29, 2002 Posted: 1:40 AM EDT (0540 GMT)
LVIV, Ukraine (CNN) -- Four military officials have been detained in the Ukraine amid allegations errors in preparing for an air display contributed to the deaths of 83 people in the world's worst air show crash.
More than 115 people were also injured when a Russian Sukhoi Su-27 warplane clipped the ground during a display at the Skniliv airfield in the western city of Lviv, cartwheeled into the crowd, and exploded in a huge fireball on Saturday.
Ukraine's prosecutor general detained the former commander of the country's airforce on Sunday, a day after he was sacked by President Leonid Kuchma.
Officials said Volodymyr Strelnykov was detained after an investigation found that there were "serious errors in organising, preparing and conducting flights, in particular organising demonstration flights in Lviv" the Interfax-Ukraine news agency reported.
Three other top military officials have also been held.
Just a day after the incident, a second Russian aircraft, an Ilyushin Il-86, crashed on take-off from Moscow's biggest airport, killing at least 14 people.
The Ukraine is mourning those who died, which included nineteen children. (Full story)
Air show spectators could only stare in shock as debris was scattered across the tarmac and surrounding grassland. (Eyewitness)
Bunches of flowers have been laid at the entrance to the air show.
Kuchma immediately sacked Ukraine's air force chief and the head of armed forces' general staff, Petro Shulyak, who was said to be acting as defence minister at the time of the crash, was also forced out.
"The guilty must be brought to justice, on this point there is no doubt," Kuchma told local television, adding he wanted a ban on future military airshows.
Evhem Marchuk, secretary of Ukraine's defence and security council and head of the state commission into the accident, told Reuters news agency investigators were analysing the flight recorder retrieved from the twin-engined fighter, which fell from the sky after failing to complete a tricky aerobatics manoeuvre.
He said it was getting increasingly hard to identify the bodies, many ripped apart by metal shards from the plane which were flung across the Sknyliv military air field, on the outskirts of this picturesque city.
Hundreds of tearful relatives have been waiting anxiously outside an overcrowded morgue, as forensic officials strive to identify victims' mangled remains.
Volodymyr Bukhach, 35, wept as he stood waiting for news from the morgue, unsure whether his wife was alive.
Accompanied by five friends, he told The Associated Press his two children, aged 6 and 10, had survived, but that he could not find his wife.
"We called (Saturday), we went looking at the hospitals, but we couldn't find her," Bukhach said. "We couldn't find her and got no information."
Olha Dudchenko, standing outside the morgue holding photos of her 7-year-old daughter Mariana, whom she identified Sunday morning, told AP: "I can think of nothing that can relieve my grief."
The daughter and her husband, Serhiy, a doctor, had gone to the airfield to listen to a children's choir, where Mariana's friend performed, when they were killed by the cartwheeling wreckage of the jet.
U.S. President George W. Bush has expressed condolences about the plane crash in a letter to Kuchma, his spokeswoman Olena Hromnytska told AP.
Similar letters were received from British Prime Minister Tony Blair and French President Jacques Chirac, she said.
Pope John Paul II, has sent a condolence message offering prayers for victims and his spiritual closeness for survivors in Lviv, which he visited last year in a pilgrimage.
Russian Ambassador Viktor Chernomyrdin pledged Russian financial support to crash victims' families, according to the Interfax news agency.
Spanish and Polish authorities have proposed medical assistance to aid the injured and blood reserves from the capital Kiev were sent to Lviv.
The air show had been marking the 60th anniversary of a local unit of the Ukrainian Air Force.
The crash was the world's worst air show disaster, eclipsing the 70 killed in 1988 when three Italian jets collided, sending one into a crowd at the U.S. Air Force base in Ramstein, Germany. (More crashes)
The reputation of Ukraine's armed forces, cash-strapped since the Soviet Union's collapse a decade ago, was blackened last October when a missile fired during a training exercise hit a Russian airliner, killing all 78 people aboard.
The Su-27 amazed audiences at its first appearances at Western airshows in the 1990s with aerobatic manoeuvres previously unknown for a twin-engined jet aircraft of its size.
LVIV, Ukraine (CNN) -- Four military officials have been detained in the Ukraine amid allegations errors in preparing for an air display contributed to the deaths of 83 people in the world's worst air show crash.
More than 115 people were also injured when a Russian Sukhoi Su-27 warplane clipped the ground during a display at the Skniliv airfield in the western city of Lviv, cartwheeled into the crowd, and exploded in a huge fireball on Saturday.
Ukraine's prosecutor general detained the former commander of the country's airforce on Sunday, a day after he was sacked by President Leonid Kuchma.
Officials said Volodymyr Strelnykov was detained after an investigation found that there were "serious errors in organising, preparing and conducting flights, in particular organising demonstration flights in Lviv" the Interfax-Ukraine news agency reported.
Three other top military officials have also been held.
Just a day after the incident, a second Russian aircraft, an Ilyushin Il-86, crashed on take-off from Moscow's biggest airport, killing at least 14 people.
The Ukraine is mourning those who died, which included nineteen children. (Full story)
Air show spectators could only stare in shock as debris was scattered across the tarmac and surrounding grassland. (Eyewitness)
Bunches of flowers have been laid at the entrance to the air show.
Kuchma immediately sacked Ukraine's air force chief and the head of armed forces' general staff, Petro Shulyak, who was said to be acting as defence minister at the time of the crash, was also forced out.
"The guilty must be brought to justice, on this point there is no doubt," Kuchma told local television, adding he wanted a ban on future military airshows.
Evhem Marchuk, secretary of Ukraine's defence and security council and head of the state commission into the accident, told Reuters news agency investigators were analysing the flight recorder retrieved from the twin-engined fighter, which fell from the sky after failing to complete a tricky aerobatics manoeuvre.
He said it was getting increasingly hard to identify the bodies, many ripped apart by metal shards from the plane which were flung across the Sknyliv military air field, on the outskirts of this picturesque city.
Hundreds of tearful relatives have been waiting anxiously outside an overcrowded morgue, as forensic officials strive to identify victims' mangled remains.
Volodymyr Bukhach, 35, wept as he stood waiting for news from the morgue, unsure whether his wife was alive.
Accompanied by five friends, he told The Associated Press his two children, aged 6 and 10, had survived, but that he could not find his wife.
"We called (Saturday), we went looking at the hospitals, but we couldn't find her," Bukhach said. "We couldn't find her and got no information."
Olha Dudchenko, standing outside the morgue holding photos of her 7-year-old daughter Mariana, whom she identified Sunday morning, told AP: "I can think of nothing that can relieve my grief."
The daughter and her husband, Serhiy, a doctor, had gone to the airfield to listen to a children's choir, where Mariana's friend performed, when they were killed by the cartwheeling wreckage of the jet.
U.S. President George W. Bush has expressed condolences about the plane crash in a letter to Kuchma, his spokeswoman Olena Hromnytska told AP.
Similar letters were received from British Prime Minister Tony Blair and French President Jacques Chirac, she said.
Pope John Paul II, has sent a condolence message offering prayers for victims and his spiritual closeness for survivors in Lviv, which he visited last year in a pilgrimage.
Russian Ambassador Viktor Chernomyrdin pledged Russian financial support to crash victims' families, according to the Interfax news agency.
Spanish and Polish authorities have proposed medical assistance to aid the injured and blood reserves from the capital Kiev were sent to Lviv.
The air show had been marking the 60th anniversary of a local unit of the Ukrainian Air Force.
The crash was the world's worst air show disaster, eclipsing the 70 killed in 1988 when three Italian jets collided, sending one into a crowd at the U.S. Air Force base in Ramstein, Germany. (More crashes)
The reputation of Ukraine's armed forces, cash-strapped since the Soviet Union's collapse a decade ago, was blackened last October when a missile fired during a training exercise hit a Russian airliner, killing all 78 people aboard.
The Su-27 amazed audiences at its first appearances at Western airshows in the 1990s with aerobatic manoeuvres previously unknown for a twin-engined jet aircraft of its size.
I wonder if anyone's considered the merits of having an airfarce which cannot manage not to drop bombs on its own allies in the field, fly around over San Francisco for no real reason at all
Death Toll From Riots Rises to 40
Panafrican News Agency
NEWS
November 12, 2000
Posted to the web November 12, 2000
Maputo, Mozambique
The death toll from Thursday's clashes between the Mozambican police and demonstrators belonging to the main opposition party RENAMO, has risen to 40, the national news agency AIM reported Sunday.
Among the dead are seven policemen, including a local director of the Criminal Investigation Police (PIC), AIM said.
Although the Renamo demonstrations took place in several cities and towns across central and northern Mozambique, more than half the deaths occurred in the town of Montepuez, in the northern province of Cabo Delgado.
AIM quoting Radio Mozambique Sunday, reported that most of the seriously injured have died in the Montepuez hospital, bringing the Montepuez death toll to 24.
The final death toll could be higher, since three other people were still said to be on danger list.
Three other people died in Balama, also in Cabo Delgado, 10 died in clashes in several parts of Nampula province, and two in an attack against the administrative offices in Caia, in the central province of Sofala.
This brings the provisional toll to at least 40 dead, making Thursday's riots the bloodiest political violence in Mozambique since the end of the so-called war of destabilisation in 1992.
The radio report further said that some 143 weapons were seized by the Montepuez rioters when they over-ran the district police command.
Only 41 of weapons have been handed over to the armed forces (FADM).
The radio also claimed that apart from former RENAMO guerrillas, some former members of NAPARAMAS, a private peasant militia, also took part in the demonstration called by RENAMO to protest results of the 1999 elections, which the organisation has dismissed as fraudulent.
NAPARAMAS was active in northern Mozambique towards the end of the war supporting RENAMO, but nothing much has been heard of the militia since the 1992 peace accord.
Meanwhile, the Manica provincial court in the centre of the country is reported to have tried 53 of the 119 people detained over the riots, in the provincial capital, Chimoio, and elsewhere in the province
The court was said to have handed down prison sentences of between three and six months. But it was unclear if the sentences were suspended, or whether any of the detainees had access to defence lawyers.
The radio also claimed that former fighters from both RENAMO and NAPARAMA had regrouped at the Montepuez Renamo offices, where they were allegedly shouting anti-government slogans.
The Cabo Delgado provincial Attorney, Arone Nhaca, confirmed that some 26 people have been detained in Montepuez, waiting trial depending on the seriousness of their offences.
Nhaca said his office would charge all those responsible for the violence.
Panafrican News Agency
NEWS
November 12, 2000
Posted to the web November 12, 2000
Maputo, Mozambique
The death toll from Thursday's clashes between the Mozambican police and demonstrators belonging to the main opposition party RENAMO, has risen to 40, the national news agency AIM reported Sunday.
Among the dead are seven policemen, including a local director of the Criminal Investigation Police (PIC), AIM said.
Although the Renamo demonstrations took place in several cities and towns across central and northern Mozambique, more than half the deaths occurred in the town of Montepuez, in the northern province of Cabo Delgado.
AIM quoting Radio Mozambique Sunday, reported that most of the seriously injured have died in the Montepuez hospital, bringing the Montepuez death toll to 24.
The final death toll could be higher, since three other people were still said to be on danger list.
Three other people died in Balama, also in Cabo Delgado, 10 died in clashes in several parts of Nampula province, and two in an attack against the administrative offices in Caia, in the central province of Sofala.
This brings the provisional toll to at least 40 dead, making Thursday's riots the bloodiest political violence in Mozambique since the end of the so-called war of destabilisation in 1992.
The radio report further said that some 143 weapons were seized by the Montepuez rioters when they over-ran the district police command.
Only 41 of weapons have been handed over to the armed forces (FADM).
The radio also claimed that apart from former RENAMO guerrillas, some former members of NAPARAMAS, a private peasant militia, also took part in the demonstration called by RENAMO to protest results of the 1999 elections, which the organisation has dismissed as fraudulent.
NAPARAMAS was active in northern Mozambique towards the end of the war supporting RENAMO, but nothing much has been heard of the militia since the 1992 peace accord.
Meanwhile, the Manica provincial court in the centre of the country is reported to have tried 53 of the 119 people detained over the riots, in the provincial capital, Chimoio, and elsewhere in the province
The court was said to have handed down prison sentences of between three and six months. But it was unclear if the sentences were suspended, or whether any of the detainees had access to defence lawyers.
The radio also claimed that former fighters from both RENAMO and NAPARAMA had regrouped at the Montepuez Renamo offices, where they were allegedly shouting anti-government slogans.
The Cabo Delgado provincial Attorney, Arone Nhaca, confirmed that some 26 people have been detained in Montepuez, waiting trial depending on the seriousness of their offences.
Nhaca said his office would charge all those responsible for the violence.
You live the life you have on the dead of many who defended your right to breath this free air.
I say just move to where you are in like company
I say just move to where you are in like company
Dear Mr Communist,
Can't wait to get to your beautiful city during this years fleet week. Your diatribe sounded strangely like a Hitler speach, full of "we" and "our" and lots of unsurpressed anger. But we will steadfastly press on with our mission to debauch your women, terrorize S.F."s gay's and defend your right to mock this country and everything it stands for.
Huddle my poor little friend in your Marxist utopia built by the bay in a U.S. city, no where else could you spew your uninspired bildge with such impunity.
Look forward to your support during the up coming war with Iraq, maybe we'll see you there.
love
Joe Navy
Can't wait to get to your beautiful city during this years fleet week. Your diatribe sounded strangely like a Hitler speach, full of "we" and "our" and lots of unsurpressed anger. But we will steadfastly press on with our mission to debauch your women, terrorize S.F."s gay's and defend your right to mock this country and everything it stands for.
Huddle my poor little friend in your Marxist utopia built by the bay in a U.S. city, no where else could you spew your uninspired bildge with such impunity.
Look forward to your support during the up coming war with Iraq, maybe we'll see you there.
love
Joe Navy
Comrade,
A devastating point was made regarding your position on the Glorious Blue Angles, your so far left you have to mix and max facts to achieve your desired result! Poor little marxist.
I have a wonderful idea for you, go to Iraq and live. You won't be oppressed or threatened and you can say anything you want and not have to worry about repercussions. They are very open over there.
The countdown has begun, get there quick so you'll be in time for the first bombing wave!
love
Joe
A devastating point was made regarding your position on the Glorious Blue Angles, your so far left you have to mix and max facts to achieve your desired result! Poor little marxist.
I have a wonderful idea for you, go to Iraq and live. You won't be oppressed or threatened and you can say anything you want and not have to worry about repercussions. They are very open over there.
The countdown has begun, get there quick so you'll be in time for the first bombing wave!
love
Joe
I have been in the US Navy for 10 years. Look, the point is civilians are stupid and we have to entertain them from time to time. Who cares if the costs we pay for Fleet Week could house the homeless in the US for a year? The point is this government is made up largely FOR people who ARENT YOU, and you better get used to it. We work for Lockheed, oil companies, and all the drug cartels that are on "our side" (this week, haha).
So, really. If this was Germany 1938, whose side would you want to be on? I definitely know MY answer to that question.
So, really. If this was Germany 1938, whose side would you want to be on? I definitely know MY answer to that question.
we need to take/tax the war/illegal drugs coming into this country. so long as profits are being made, there will be people wanting to rape,rob,steal, from other people to obtain their wealth while taxing our own people to pay for this murder/war.who benefits?who loses?
I am a sailor. Originally from Seattle, I live in Los Angeles now. Seattle's SeaFair, virtually identical to Fleet Week in its Navy presence, has always hosted a performance by the Blue Angels. Well, I always detested the noise. A supersonic combat jet is one of the loudest human inventions of all time. It is not pleasant to have one pass 25 times in a day at low altitude over your apartment.
I wrote a similar piece for the Seattle Times 10 years ago, although not nearly so hyperbolic, or condescending to the military. I don't believe the jets fly simply as a matter of national pride, but also as a show of force. To some degree it serves to intimidate. I don't believe we should have war planes flying over our cities except as necessary in time of war.
One more thing. It is a disgrace that the men in uniform that have chosen to place commentary on this site have felt it necessary to hurl prejudicial insults at the author and other contributors. Yes, the author naively believes in a world without armed conflict, and insults men and women in uniform. But Service people do not have to sink to his level.
I wrote a similar piece for the Seattle Times 10 years ago, although not nearly so hyperbolic, or condescending to the military. I don't believe the jets fly simply as a matter of national pride, but also as a show of force. To some degree it serves to intimidate. I don't believe we should have war planes flying over our cities except as necessary in time of war.
One more thing. It is a disgrace that the men in uniform that have chosen to place commentary on this site have felt it necessary to hurl prejudicial insults at the author and other contributors. Yes, the author naively believes in a world without armed conflict, and insults men and women in uniform. But Service people do not have to sink to his level.
Your report was hilariuos. It is so out of context that it made me laugh for almost an hour. You describe the blue angels as being killers when all they do is perform aerobatics over the skies of the entire United States without harm to anyone or anything. If it is such a crime to be performing airshows over the country, tell me why there is such an anormous gatHering of people coming to watch. Of course we use these aircraft to fight and win wars. But it is those aircraft and soldiers that give us our freedoms. You really need to rethink you point of view on your concept of a soldier being a killer that is being paid. Here is the definition of a soldier from the Webster's dictionary- "A person who works for a specified cause". That cause is protecting the homeland that you and i live in. If you have ever been to an airshow in your life the only thing that is harmful is the people trying to get into the show. I just got back from the Dayton airshow in Ohio and it was spectacular. There were so many people that they were not letting anymore people in because it was becoming overcrowded. The show did not only display the militaries great power, but the remberence of those who died giving us the freedom to speak our minds as you did and i am right now. I'm telling you right now that if you try to end the Blue Angels performances with protests, the only outcome will be that of more people coming and watching. You need to remember that people died to keep this country free and peaceful. But im sad to say that many other countries are not the same as us and there is no peace and freedom to spread around. For example Iraq, Kosovo, The Gulf War, WW1, and WW2. I have the feeling that you have a strong Liberal bias and have nothing else to talk about so you try and go after the things that people love. If you and your people were to rule the U.S it would collapse immediatly because you would give this country up for peace, but the only problem is there will never be peace anywere in the world because the world is not perfect and neither am I or you. That is all i have to say. LONG LIVE THE U.S NAVY BLUE ANGELS, THE U.S AIRFORCE THUNDERBIRDS, THE CANADIAN ROYAL AIRFORCE SNOW BIRDS AND ANY OTHER AIRPLANE THAT KEEPS OUR COUNTRY FREE ALONG WITH THE SOLDIERS THAT HELP KEEP THE PEACE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! GODBLESS AMERICA AND I FELL BAD THAT YOU ARE MISSING THE BEST ENTERTINMENT IN THE WORLD!!!
Does anyone know if any lawsuits were filed for personal injury damage from close flybys of Blue Angels or an attorney who will research? 2 incidents 1 in a building w/asbestos containment construction in Union Square SF 94 , 1 near Moffitt foot bridge in mid-80s.
I will check site for any reply.
JS
I will check site for any reply.
JS
You are all liberals (except for the my military buddies, semper fi). These people dont realize that the soldiers kill for peace, and for our freedom. They aren't savages, they are sent to the field to do their job and they are doing it pretty damn well if i do say so myself
MY FRIENDS FATHER IS IN THE ARMY. IM GOING TO SEND THIS TO HIM AND SEE WHAT HE THINKS. IM SURE HE WONT CARE BECAUSE HE FIGHTS FOR YOU AND EVERYONE ELSE IN THIS WORLD. IT SADDENS ME TO KNOW THAT YOU WOULD GIVE THIS COUNTRY UP FOR FREEDOM. YOU REALLY DONT KNOW HOW GOOD YOU HAVE IT. PLEASE GO LIVE IN IRAQ AND SEE HOW IT IS OVER THERE. GO GET THROWN IN A WOODCHIPPER OR GASSED BY SADDAM. I SUPPORT THIS NATION AND ALL THAT IT STANDS FOR. IM GLAD THAT HE FIGHTS FOR YOUR GAY COMMUNITY. I BET THE IDIOT THAT WROTE THAT STUPID THING IS QUEER. BUT I DONT SEE ANY QUEER PEOPLE IN IRAQ. SO THAT JUST GOES TO SHOW YOU HOW GOOD YOU HAVE IT
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