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documentary, Sacrifice at Pearl Harbor The Government Knew!
by xx
Monday Sep 2nd, 2002 3:40 PM
realmedia file 56k
This film was made in 1989, Even more national archive documents have surfaced.

The McCollum Memo: The Smoking Gun of Pearl Harbor

On October 7, 1940, Lieutenant Commander Arthur McCollum of the Office of Naval Intelligence submitted a memo to Navy Captains Walter Anderson and Dudley Knox (whose endorsement is included in the following scans). Captains Anderson and Knox were two of President Roosevelt's most trusted military advisors. The memo, scanned below, detailed an 8 step plan to provoke Japan into attacking the United States. President Roosevelt, over the course of 1941, implemented all 8 of the recommendations contained in the McCollum memo. Following the eighth provocation, Japan attacked. The public was told that it was a complete surprise, an "intelligence failure", and America entered World War Two.

see scans of the documents here
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/McCollum/index.html

Want more here is a radio interview with WWII Vet and author Robert Stinnett about his book "Day of Deceit: The Truth About FDR and Pearl Harbor" Also included is a follow-up interview with WWII Vet O'Kelly McCluskey

http://www.radio4all.net/proginfo.php?id=5123
by Dave1
Monday Sep 2nd, 2002 7:51 PM
Stinnett is widely known as a VERY dishonest author. There are HUNDREDS of mistakes in his book including such massive mistakes as missing the entire JN-25b upgrade code.
(From Budiansky author of Battle of the Witts)
http://www.defensedaily.com/reports/PRObudiansky.htm
Also here is some good info by Cryptologist Phil Jacobsen
http://www.pearlharborattacked.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard4/ikonboard.cgi?s=3d6ef75d5411ffff;act=ST;f=50;t=16

Regarding Stinnet's claim about Japanese radio signals from the Kido Butai being caught by intelligence:
It has been confirmed that the few actual bearings from Corregidor (no other station reported bearings) and intercepts on 26 and 30 November by Station H on callsigns of Kido Butai units from 14 Nov through 4 December were all radio deception transmissions. The Corregidor bearings were from the main Japanese naval bases at Sasebo (027 degrees) [ranged from 026 to 028 degrees], Kure (030 degrees) and Yokosuka (039 degrees) [actually 040 degrees] from Corregidor's old Model DT Adcock Type "walkaround" HFDF located at Monkey Point, Corregidor. No bearings were obtained on Kido Butai callsigns by Station H's CXK HFDF probably due to the stupid 14th ND civilian engineer who insisted on putting the CXK at the transmitter site at Lualualei where weak signals could not be heard through all the interference and birdies of Lualualei's 500,000 watt VLF transmitter on 16 kHz. and the large number of powerful HF transmitters located in the same area. No other official bearing reports were ever made on Kido Butai callsigns in late November-early December by other Pacific HFDF stations. The "remembrances" from Dutch Harbor reported by Stinnett were contradicted by Tom Gilmore and other DF operators there at the time.

In 2000 a great Pearl Harbor Debate vs revisionists and non-revisionists has put the revisionists (Wilford noted in Stinnett's paperback and Villa) theorys into a huge tail spin. A small sample here. I encorage other to read the WHOLE debate. Very interesting.
http://h-net.msu.edu/cgi-bin/logbrowse.pl?trx=vx&list=h-diplo&month=0010&week=a&msg=lA7W6VkZrwE/xf7nJTiB4A&user=&pw=
Earlier this year Stinnett had to shut down his OWN message board at his website because of MANY angry readers demanding answers for his sloppy research. They continually gave him damning evidance against his book.
I also encourage others to read the McCollum document then see how McCollum and the document were misrepresented.
Stinnett improperly ascribes McCollum's office as "an element of Station US (by which he means OP-20-G), a secret American cryptographic center located at the main naval headquarters" in an effort to tie McCollum closer to OP-20-G than he actually was before WWII.
To top it off Stinnett cannot prove Roosevelt even saw the document.
(As a side note, Stinnett is a known strong minded republican with ties to the Bush family. In FACT his other book was titled George Bush, His War Years.)
http://btobsearch.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=533XN8H28V&btob=Y&isbn=0788151533
I can understand those who may be skeptical of my claims. But If you would like more information/ links let me know I'd be glad to help.
soc.history.war.misc also has some great discussions regarding the subject.

by niskamaj
Tuesday Sep 3rd, 2002 12:12 AM
Also some other good links and videos are
History channel, http://www.historychannel.com/pearlharbor/
Nation Geographic,
http://plasma.nationalgeographic.com/pearlharbor/ngbeyond/stories/index.html
http://plasma.nationalgeographic.com/pearlharbor/
A really great book on the subject is by Layton, And I was there: Breaking Secrets
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1568523475/ref%3Dnosim/broughsbooks/104-4143454-3209503

The BBC website also has some ok information but slim.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/war/wwtwo/pearl_harbour_1.shtml
I see people try to nay say, about the codes all the time. There is much more evidence than that. They were tracking the ships across the pacfic using direction radio finder all around the pacific.

There are also many other examples in many more book that they knew and let it happen. Look through some of the documents yourself!

There is also this recent story.

http://www.thescotsman.co.uk/international.cfm?id=820792002

US prisoners claim Roosevelt left them in Philippines deliberately

DAVID Cox in New York


HUNDREDS of former US prisoners of war have begun a battle for compensation after uncovering documents that allegedly prove the wartime administration deliberately used them as a tool to whip up domestic support for war with Japan.

A former prisoner has uncovered papers in the US National Archive that she claims prove the government restricted the travel of 7,000 American citizens from the Philippines, while at the same time encouraging evacuation of Americans from other potential Japanese targets in China and south-east Asia.

A federal lawsuit filed yesterday in Washington, DC, alleges that the government at first wanted to keep Americans in the Philippines to discourage Japanese aggression, but later used them as a political tool.

A group of 500 former prisoners claim the plan was devised by the US wartime leader, Franklin D Roosevelt. with the approval of Winston Churchill, Britain’s Prime Minister, to cause outrage among American citizens unwilling to back a war on Japan.

Americans were denied passport and travel documents to let them flee. They were later captured by the Japanese and held in notorious camps under appalling conditions.

Marcia Fee Achenbach, one of those captured, was four when her camp was liberated by US soldiers in 1944. She discovered the papers while doing research in the National Archive. Among the evidence uncovered was a telegram that Francis Sayre, the high commissioner of the Philippines, had sent to the US state department urging an evacuation plan. The state department’s confidential reply read: "Visualise the remaining of Americans generally in the Philippines in an emergency, and plan accordingly."

Other evidence includes a letter from one of the commissioner’s secretaries indicating that officials were not to issue passports. The secretary states that she wrote more than 5,000 letters rejecting passport applications during the build up to Japan’s attack on Pearl Harbor.

In the notorious Philippine POW camps, starvation and disease were rampant, and hundreds died as internees were reduced to eating cats, dogs, rats and weeds to survive. Many of the camp’s leaders were executed by the Japanese as the US army advanced to recapture the islands. Ms Achenbach said: "I remember having to run around to get away from the shelling. I grew up thinking that we were in the wrong place at the wrong time. I was angry and astounded to find out later I didn’t have to go through some of the things I went through."

Anthony D’Amato, the lawyer who filed the suit, believes the orders came directly from Roosevelt. He also thinks the US leader discussed his plans for the Philippines in telephone talks with Churchill.

Transcripts of those conversations were ordered to be sealed indefinitely by President Harry Truman, but Mr D’Amato is asking for them to be made public. "We believe this smoking gun is in those transcripts," he said.

Frances Cogan, a professor at the University of Oregon, said the government had other reasons for its actions. "It was thought that if they moved the Americans out of the Philippines, it would look like we were going to launch a war against Japan," said Prof Cogan, author of Captured: The Internment of American civilians in the Philippines 1941-1945. "Another reason was to keep the Filipino people from feeling they had been deserted and left to rot."

Regarding the actions of US officials, Prof Cogan said: "Certainly they lied. Certainly they kept them from leaving and getting transportation out. The effect was that people remained there, however they did it and for whatever reasons."

Even if the allegations are proved, legal experts say winning a suit against the government over a wartime event that that happened 60 years ago may not lead to the desired apology. One complication is that the prisoners have already received some financial recompense. After their release, former prisoners were paid one dollar for each day of internment from the proceeds of a sale of Japanese assets frozen in other countries. As part of that deal, the United States and other nations waived the rights of their citizens to sue Japan.


I see people try to nay say, about the codes all the time. There is much more evidence than that. They were tracking the ships across the pacfic using direction radio finder all around the pacific.

There are also many other examples, in many more books, that they knew and let it happen. Look through some of the documents yourself!

There is also this recent story.

http://www.thescotsman.co.uk/international.cfm?id=820792002

US prisoners claim Roosevelt left them in Philippines deliberately

DAVID Cox in New York


HUNDREDS of former US prisoners of war have begun a battle for compensation after uncovering documents that allegedly prove the wartime administration deliberately used them as a tool to whip up domestic support for war with Japan.

A former prisoner has uncovered papers in the US National Archive that she claims prove the government restricted the travel of 7,000 American citizens from the Philippines, while at the same time encouraging evacuation of Americans from other potential Japanese targets in China and south-east Asia.

A federal lawsuit filed yesterday in Washington, DC, alleges that the government at first wanted to keep Americans in the Philippines to discourage Japanese aggression, but later used them as a political tool.

A group of 500 former prisoners claim the plan was devised by the US wartime leader, Franklin D Roosevelt. with the approval of Winston Churchill, Britain’s Prime Minister, to cause outrage among American citizens unwilling to back a war on Japan.

Americans were denied passport and travel documents to let them flee. They were later captured by the Japanese and held in notorious camps under appalling conditions.

Marcia Fee Achenbach, one of those captured, was four when her camp was liberated by US soldiers in 1944. She discovered the papers while doing research in the National Archive. Among the evidence uncovered was a telegram that Francis Sayre, the high commissioner of the Philippines, had sent to the US state department urging an evacuation plan. The state department’s confidential reply read: "Visualise the remaining of Americans generally in the Philippines in an emergency, and plan accordingly."

Other evidence includes a letter from one of the commissioner’s secretaries indicating that officials were not to issue passports. The secretary states that she wrote more than 5,000 letters rejecting passport applications during the build up to Japan’s attack on Pearl Harbor.

In the notorious Philippine POW camps, starvation and disease were rampant, and hundreds died as internees were reduced to eating cats, dogs, rats and weeds to survive. Many of the camp’s leaders were executed by the Japanese as the US army advanced to recapture the islands. Ms Achenbach said: "I remember having to run around to get away from the shelling. I grew up thinking that we were in the wrong place at the wrong time. I was angry and astounded to find out later I didn’t have to go through some of the things I went through."

Anthony D’Amato, the lawyer who filed the suit, believes the orders came directly from Roosevelt. He also thinks the US leader discussed his plans for the Philippines in telephone talks with Churchill.

Transcripts of those conversations were ordered to be sealed indefinitely by President Harry Truman, but Mr D’Amato is asking for them to be made public. "We believe this smoking gun is in those transcripts," he said.

Frances Cogan, a professor at the University of Oregon, said the government had other reasons for its actions. "It was thought that if they moved the Americans out of the Philippines, it would look like we were going to launch a war against Japan," said Prof Cogan, author of Captured: The Internment of American civilians in the Philippines 1941-1945. "Another reason was to keep the Filipino people from feeling they had been deserted and left to rot."

Regarding the actions of US officials, Prof Cogan said: "Certainly they lied. Certainly they kept them from leaving and getting transportation out. The effect was that people remained there, however they did it and for whatever reasons."

Even if the allegations are proved, legal experts say winning a suit against the government over a wartime event that that happened 60 years ago may not lead to the desired apology. One complication is that the prisoners have already received some financial recompense. After their release, former prisoners were paid one dollar for each day of internment from the proceeds of a sale of Japanese assets frozen in other countries. As part of that deal, the United States and other nations waived the rights of their citizens to sue Japan.


I see people try to nay say, about the codes all the time. There is much more evidence than that. They were tracking the ships across the pacfic using direction radio finder all around the pacific.

There are also many other examples, in many more books, that they knew and let it happen. Look through some of the documents yourself!

There is also this recent story.

http://www.thescotsman.co.uk/international.cfm?id=820792002

US prisoners claim Roosevelt left them in Philippines deliberately

DAVID Cox in New York


HUNDREDS of former US prisoners of war have begun a battle for compensation after uncovering documents that allegedly prove the wartime administration deliberately used them as a tool to whip up domestic support for war with Japan.

A former prisoner has uncovered papers in the US National Archive that she claims prove the government restricted the travel of 7,000 American citizens from the Philippines, while at the same time encouraging evacuation of Americans from other potential Japanese targets in China and south-east Asia.

A federal lawsuit filed yesterday in Washington, DC, alleges that the government at first wanted to keep Americans in the Philippines to discourage Japanese aggression, but later used them as a political tool.

A group of 500 former prisoners claim the plan was devised by the US wartime leader, Franklin D Roosevelt. with the approval of Winston Churchill, Britain’s Prime Minister, to cause outrage among American citizens unwilling to back a war on Japan.

Americans were denied passport and travel documents to let them flee. They were later captured by the Japanese and held in notorious camps under appalling conditions.

Marcia Fee Achenbach, one of those captured, was four when her camp was liberated by US soldiers in 1944. She discovered the papers while doing research in the National Archive. Among the evidence uncovered was a telegram that Francis Sayre, the high commissioner of the Philippines, had sent to the US state department urging an evacuation plan. The state department’s confidential reply read: "Visualise the remaining of Americans generally in the Philippines in an emergency, and plan accordingly."

Other evidence includes a letter from one of the commissioner’s secretaries indicating that officials were not to issue passports. The secretary states that she wrote more than 5,000 letters rejecting passport applications during the build up to Japan’s attack on Pearl Harbor.

In the notorious Philippine POW camps, starvation and disease were rampant, and hundreds died as internees were reduced to eating cats, dogs, rats and weeds to survive. Many of the camp’s leaders were executed by the Japanese as the US army advanced to recapture the islands. Ms Achenbach said: "I remember having to run around to get away from the shelling. I grew up thinking that we were in the wrong place at the wrong time. I was angry and astounded to find out later I didn’t have to go through some of the things I went through."

Anthony D’Amato, the lawyer who filed the suit, believes the orders came directly from Roosevelt. He also thinks the US leader discussed his plans for the Philippines in telephone talks with Churchill.

Transcripts of those conversations were ordered to be sealed indefinitely by President Harry Truman, but Mr D’Amato is asking for them to be made public. "We believe this smoking gun is in those transcripts," he said.

Frances Cogan, a professor at the University of Oregon, said the government had other reasons for its actions. "It was thought that if they moved the Americans out of the Philippines, it would look like we were going to launch a war against Japan," said Prof Cogan, author of Captured: The Internment of American civilians in the Philippines 1941-1945. "Another reason was to keep the Filipino people from feeling they had been deserted and left to rot."

Regarding the actions of US officials, Prof Cogan said: "Certainly they lied. Certainly they kept them from leaving and getting transportation out. The effect was that people remained there, however they did it and for whatever reasons."

Even if the allegations are proved, legal experts say winning a suit against the government over a wartime event that that happened 60 years ago may not lead to the desired apology. One complication is that the prisoners have already received some financial recompense. After their release, former prisoners were paid one dollar for each day of internment from the proceeds of a sale of Japanese assets frozen in other countries. As part of that deal, the United States and other nations waived the rights of their citizens to sue Japan.



by Dave1
Tuesday Sep 3rd, 2002 9:54 AM
They were not tracking the ships across the pacific.
Please re-read my statements above. Those were all radio deception transmissions.
The Corregidor bearings were from the main Japanese naval bases at Sasebo (027 degrees) [ranged from 026 to 028 degrees], Kure (030 degrees) and Yokosuka (039 degrees) [actually 040 degrees] from Corregidor's old Model DT Adcock Type "walkaround" HFDF located at Monkey Point, Corregidor. No bearings were obtained on Kido Butai callsigns by Station H's CXK HFDF probably due to the stupid 14th ND civilian engineer who insisted on putting the CXK at the transmitter site at Lualualei where weak signals could not be heard through all the interference and birdies of Lualualei's 500,000 watt VLF transmitter on 16 kHz. and the large number of powerful HF transmitters located in the same area. No other official bearing reports were ever made on Kido Butai callsigns in late November-early December by other Pacific HFDF stations. The "remembrances" from Dutch Harbor reported by Stinnett were contradicted by Tom Gilmore and other DF operators there at the time.

This has all been proven. Its a dead issue.
Please read my links for more information. http://www.pearlharborattacked.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard4/ikonboard.cgi?s=3d6ef75d5411ffff;act=ST;f=50;t=16

Futhermore the Japanese maintain to this day that they kept radio silence they did not use their radios.
It was part of there orders.
Stinnett also states that intercepts came from a three-week period from Nov. 15 to Dec. 6. In other words, all of them could have been obtained before the fleet ever left Japanese waters, and before radio silence was imposed. I don't know how Stinnett could believe that his readers wouldn't notice this critical detail. And lastly even Stinnett's other author Wilford does not use this "other intercept information" as evidance to suport his case. See H-net its a dead issue.
Best of luck.
by niskamaj
Tuesday Sep 3rd, 2002 10:12 AM
The Kido Butai was on radio silence to Shinjuwan. According to Dai Toa Senso Senkun [Koku][Hawai Kaisen no Bu] Dai Ichi Hen, (Battle Lesson
of Hawaii) a 1942 document....an Appendix in volume, Senshi Sosho: Hawai Sakusen, [Tokyo: Boeicho Kenshujo Senshishitsu; 1967]: "In order
to keep strict radio silence, thorough steps such as taking off fuses in the circuit, holding and sealing the keys were taken. During the operation, the stricted radio silence was perfectly carried out....The Kido Butai used the radio instruments for the first time on the day of
the attack since they had been fixed at the base approximately twenty days before and proved they worked well. Paper flaps had been inserted
between key points of some transmitters on board Akagi to keep the strictest radio silence..."

Also Stinnett acknowledges that there is no evidence FDR ever saw the McCollum document much less adopted it as a policy. Not all actions listed by McCollum were put into play.

Good links in second post!!

niskamaj


by whoops
Tuesday Sep 3rd, 2002 11:01 AM
Mistake "all of them" should be Some of them
by i dunno
Tuesday Sep 3rd, 2002 11:11 AM
does not mean one is not being followed.
by xx
Wednesday Sep 4th, 2002 7:59 PM
There are many other facts such as Roosevelt cleared the sea of traffic to the northern route that the Japanese took. So as to prevent a cargo ship that might run ino the attack.

He also cleared out all the modern ships and aircraft carriers from Pearl. The battleships that were sunk were of the WW1 Era. Admiral Kimmel, 2 weeks before the attack, took the fleet out to look for the japanese. He was ordered back to harbor, when washington found out.



xx 3:17pm Mon Sep 2 '02
comment#201207


http://home.att.net/~dericker/Errors/FDRsDayofTreason.html

Secret State Matter No.321/41 Time: 26.11.41 Hour: 13.15

Conversation Participants
A:=Franklin Roosevelt, Washington
B:=Winston Churchill, London
In this conversation, Winston Churchill explains to Franklin Roosevelt about the Japanese planned action against America. The conversation is as follows:

B: I am frightfully sorry to disturb you at this hour, Franklin, but matters of a most vital import have transpired and I felt that I must convey them to you immediately.
A: That's perfectly all right, Winston. I'm sure you wouldn't trouble me at this hour for trivial concerns.
B: Let me preface my information with an explanation addressing the reason I have not alluded to these facts earlier. In the first place, until today, the information was not firm. On matters of such gravity, I do not like to indulge in idle chatter. Now, I have in my hands, reports from our agents in Japan as well as the most specific intelligence in the form of the highest level Japanese naval coded messages (conversation broken) for some time now.

A: I felt that this is what you were about. How serious is it?
B: It could not be worse. A powerful Japanese task force comprising (composed of) six of their carriers, two battleships and a number of other units to include (including) tankers and cruisers, has sailed yesterday from a secret base in the northern Japanese islands.2
A: We both knew this was coming. There are also reports in my hands about a force of some size making up in China and obviously intended to go (move) South.3
B: Yes, we have all of that. (Interruption)... are far more advanced than you in our reading of the Jap naval operations codes.4 But even without that, their moves are evident. And they will indeed move South with the force I spoke of is not headed South, Franklin, it is headed East...
A: Surely you must be.. will you repeat that please?
B: I said to the East. This force is sailing to the East... towards you.
A: Perhaps they set an easterly course to fool any observers and then plan to swing South to support the landings in the southern areas. I have...
B: No, at this moment, their forces are moving across the northern Pacific and I can assure you that their goal is the (conversation broken) fleet in Hawaii. At Pearl Harbor.
A: This is monstrous. Can you tell me... indicate... the nature of your intelligence? (conversation broken) reliable? Without compromising your sources...
B: Yes, I will have to be careful. Our agents in Japan have been reporting on the gradual (conversation broken) units. And these have disappeared from Japanese home waters.5 We also have highly reliable sources in the Japanese foreign service and even in the military...
A: How reliable?
B: One of the sources is the individual who supplied us the material on the diplomatic codes that (conversation broken)6 and a Naval offices (sic) whom our service has compromised. You must trust me, Franklin, I can not be more specific.
A: I accept this.
B: We cannot compromise our code breaking. You understand this. Only myself and a few (conversation broken) not even Hopkins.7 It will go straight to Moscow and I am not sure we want that.
A: I am still attempting to.. . the obvious implication is that the Japs are going to do a Port Arthur on us at Pearl Harbor.8 Do you concur?
B: I do indeed. Unless they add an attack on the Panama Canal to this vile business. I can hardly envision the canal as a primary goal, especially with your fleet lying athwart their lines of communications with Japan. No, if they do strike the canal, they will have to first neutralize (destroy) your fleet (conversation broken).
A: The worst form of treachery. We can prepare our defenses on the islands and give them a warm welcome when they come. It certainly would put some iron up Congress' ass (asshole).
B: On the other hand, if they did launch a bombing raid, given that the aircraft would only be of the carrier-borne types, how much actual damage could they inflict? And on what targets?
A: I think torpedoes would be ruled out at the outset. Pearl is far too shallow to permit a successful torpedo attack.9 Probably they would drop medium bombs on the ships and then shoot (conversation broken) damage a number of ships and no doubt the Japs would attack our airfields. I could see some damage there but I don't think either an airfield or a battleship could sink very far. What do your people give you as the actual date of the attack?
B: The actual date given is the eighth of December. That's a Monday.10
A: The fleet is in harbor over the weekend. They often sortie during the week..
B: The Japs are asking (conversation broken) exact dispositions of your ships on a regular basis.
A: But Monday seems odd. Are you certain?
B: It is in the calendar. Monday is the eighth (conversation broken)
A: .. .then I will have to consider the entire problem. A Japanese attack on us, which would result in war between us.. and certainly you as well.. would certainly fulfill two of the most important requirements of our policy. Harry has told me repeatedly... and I have more faith in him than I do in the Soviet ambassador that Stalin is desperate at this point. The Nazis are at the gates of Moscow, his armies are melting away... the government has evacuated and although Harry and Marshall feel that Stalin can hang on and eventually defeat Hitler, there is no saying what could transpire (happen) if the Japs suddenly fell on Stalin's rear. In spite of all the agreements between them and the Japs dropping Matsuoka, there is still strong anti-Russian sentiment in high Japanese military circles. I think we have to decide what is more important. keeping Russia in the war to bleed the Nazis dry to their own eventual destruction (conversation broken) supply Stalin with weapons but do not forget, in fact he is your ally, not mine. There are strong isolationist feelings here and there are quite a number of anti-Communists...
B: Fascists...
A: Certainly, but they would do all they could to block any attempt on my part to more than give some monetary assistance to Stalin.
B: But we too have our major desperations, Franklin. Our shipping upon which our nation depends, is being sunk by the huns faster than we could ever replace (conversation broken) the Japs attack both of us in the Pacific? We could lose Malaya which is our primary source of rubber and tin. And if the Japs get Java and the oil, they could press South to Australia and I have told you repeatedly, we cannot hold (conversation broken)11 them much but in truth I cannot deliver. We need every man and every ship to fight Hitler in Europe... India too. If the Japs get into Malaya, they can press on virtually unopposed into Burma and then India. Need I tell you of the resultant destruction of our Empire? We cannot survive on this small island, Franklin, (conversation broken) allow the nips (knips?) to attack, you can get your war declaration through your Congress after all. (Conversation broken)
A: Not as capable as you are at translating their messages and the army and navy are very jealous of each other. There is so much coming in that everyone is confused. We have no agents in place in Japan and every day dozens of messages are (conversation broken) that contradict each other or are not well translated. I have seen three translations of the same message with three entirely different meanings (conversation broken) address your concern about British holdings in the Pacific... if the Japanese do attack both of us, eventually we will he able to crush them and regain all of the lost territories. As for myself, I will be damned glad to be rid of the Philippines.(sic) -
B: I see this as a gamble (conversation broken) what would your decision be? We cannot procrastinate over this for too long. Eleven or twelve days are all we have. Can we not agree in principle now? I should mention that several advisors have counseled (advised) against informing you of this and allowing it to happen. You see by my notifying you where my loyalty lies. Certainly to one who is heart and soul with us against Hitler.
A: I do appreciate your loyalty, Winston. What on the other hand, will happen here if one of our intelligence people is able to intercept, decipher and deliver to me the same information you just gave me? I cannot ignore it.. all of my intelligence people will know about it then. I could not ignore this.
B: But if it were just a vague message then?
A: No, a specific message. I could not just sweep it under the rug like that (conversation broken)
B: Of course not. I think we should let matters develop as they will.
A: I think that perhaps I can find a reason to absent (leave) myself from Washington while this crisis develops. What I don’t know can’t hurt me and I too can misunderstand messages, especially at a distance (conversation broken)12
B: Completely. My best to you all there.
A: Thank you for your call.

2Hittokappu Bay in the Kuriles.
3There was such force destined for Malaya.
4The Americans had broken the Japanese Naval Operations codes, called by the US Navy JN-25, but were not as advanced in translating them as were the British.
5The Pearl Harbor Strike Force was sent by different routes to their assembly point, leaving behind their radio operators who kept up a regular traffic to mislead eavesdroppers.
6It has long been thought that the breaking of the so-called Japanese Purple diplomatic code was due to treasonable activities on the part of a Japanese diplomatic official and not to the efforts of US code breakers.
7Harry Hopkins was Roosevelt`s confidant whom the British strongly suspected was selling highly secret material to the Soviets on his visits to Stalin.
8In 1904, the Japanese Navy launched a surprise attack against the Russian fleet stationed in Port Arthur, inflicting considerable damage on the unsuspecting Russia `is and beginning the Russo-Japanese War.
9This was a common error in US thinking. The Japanese had developed special fins for their aerial torpedoes that would permit them to he used in shallow waters. Normally, torpedoes dropped from an aircraft would sink to a considerable depth before beginning their run. hi shallow anchorages like Pearl Harbor, in effect these torpedoes would embed themselves in the mud at the bottom of the harbor.
10The date quoted by Churchill accurately reflects the one given in Japanese Naval intercepts. Unfortunately, neither Churchill nor British intelligence realized that the eight was Tokyo time, one day ahead of the time at Pearl Harbor. The International Date Line lies between Hawaii and Japan.
11The missing words here obviously were "I have promised" which in fact he did . Delivery consisted of two battleships the Repulse and the Prince of Wales which he sent to Singapore and which were promptly sunk by Japanese bombers off Kuantun on December 10, 1941
12On Friday, November 28, Roosevelt left Washington in his special armored train for what he called a “belated Thanksgiving� at Warm Spring, Georgia. Although Roosevelt did not like to travel on a Friday, he did so on this occasion. The trip took twenty-three hours and he was in Warm Springs long enough to deliver a speech and carve the Thanksgiving turkey. He was recalled by frantic messages from Henry Stimpson, Secretary of War, and Cordell Hull his Secretary of State. Roosevelt arrived back in Washington on December 1 to deal with the mounting crisis.





by Dave1
Thursday Sep 5th, 2002 1:14 AM
The above document source is Gestapo Chief : The 1948 Interrogation of Henrich Muller written in 1995 some sources say 96, and 97. There has never been any proof of this document and the vast majority of revisionists do not use it. FDR was not known to use radio-telephone for this kind of sensitive information. Can you or the author in anyway prove that the doc. exists??

by Dave1
Thursday Sep 5th, 2002 1:23 AM
Here is a good link with documentation for your other myths.
http://ibiblio.org/pha/myths/myths.html
by niksamaj
Thursday Sep 5th, 2002 9:35 AM
The book also says that Hitler did not commit suicide on April 30, 1945, but instead escaped to Spain. Müller insists that, with his help, Hitler and his mistress, Eva Braun, left Berlin on April 22, 1945, and flew from Austria on the 26th in a special four-motor aircraft that arrived the next day in Barcelona. "Listen to me," Müller tells his American interrogator. "Hitler went to Spain. I know for certain his plane landed safely ..."

Müller says that, as part of the escape operation, he found a man who looked like Hitler to serve as a "double." Thus, Müller says, Hitler's wedding to Eva Braun in the Berlin bunker on April 28 or 29, 1945, was "pure theater." Afterwards, Müller goes on, the "double" was shot and his body left so that the Russians would find it, to mislead them into believing they had discovered the Führer's corpse.

The man who crafted this series of books is a known fabricator of documents who has used a variety of names over the years, including Peter Stahl, Samuel Prescot Bush, and Freiherr Von Mollendorf. His real name, apparently, is Peter Norton Birch or Peter Norwood Burch.

And you believe this stuff?? Oh boy!
Even Irving has problems with it and he's a Nazi himself.
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v20/v20n2p40_Douglas.html
by xx
Friday Sep 6th, 2002 3:13 AM
Suposedly this document is in the national archives. Here is the info. I would guess it would it would not be that hard to look up.

This material has sat in American archives since 1945! The source is Gestapo
Chief: The 1948 Interrogation of Henrich Muller published in 1995 by R. J.
Bender of San Jose, CA., a well-known militaria publisher. Muller was the
German intelligence officer in charge of anti-Soviet operations and the
material about the Soviet Union in the conversations was forwarded to him.
At the end of the war, the U.S. turned Muller to its own uses and his files
were lodged in the National Archives - evidently without being sanitized.
The transcript is located at: National Archives Roll T-175, frames 129 et
seq. I have transcribed the entire conversation and attached it [below].
Transcript from pages 46-50. The bracketed portions represent German inserts
in the original text to better explain word meanings that were thought to be
too obscure for German readers.

I am not too hooked to just one piece of info. I have looked at the various, and the events. I doubt you will make believe that they didn't plan the whole thing.

There are some people that would deny it even if you showed them video of the whole thing.

They would be one of those people telling you that you are "not really seeing" "what you are seeing", like in the police beating cases.

What they really need to is open all the files. Right now they are hiding a lot of files. Like the amercian records for the day of telepone call.

If its all as they say it is why do they hold so much back. National security 50 years later? Thats funny.

by Dave1
Friday Sep 6th, 2002 11:51 AM
It seems the article you mention is fabrication.
Your author is a proven fraud.
http://www.pearlharborattacked.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard4/ikonboard.cgi?s=3d78f2ef45daffff;act=ST;f=8;t=6;st=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I am not too hooked to just one piece of info. I have looked at the various, and the events.
>>>>>>>>
But you are hooked to one piece. I don't think you've looked very hard. Did you know any of the information I gave you before this thread. I doubt it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
What they really need to is open all the files. Right now they are hiding a lot of files. Like the amercian records for the day of telepone call.
>>>>>>>>>>>
Millions of WWII era documents are rubber stamped with a "classified" stamp. However, the majority are no longer offically "classified" by an Executive Order by President Nixon. The sole exception is if a document contains A-Bomb information, it is still classified. If not, any document that has reached the thirty year declassification point [ie: all Pearl Harbor era] is officially "declassified" ...however, each page of those millions of documents must go thru the "declassification process" to receive a rubber stamp. Some Pearl Harbor material has not been thru the declassification process or even indexed...usually one spots a document in an index, asks for it, and it automatically gets the rubber stamp on it.

An FOIA request slows the process GREATLY in that the archivist in the "declassification process" must halt his work to spend a minimum of one day looking for a document that is most likely not filed correctly, never indexed, or not yet indexed...type a letter to the requestor and another to the FOIA files.

By the way many authors lie my stating that various files are still classified when in fact they are not. An example is the JN-25b decripts. The "hiding" myth is one that the revisionists turn to when all there "facts" are debunked.


by false claims
Friday Sep 6th, 2002 11:57 AM
"It seems the article you mention is fabrication.
Your author is a proven fraud."

Your link is an anonymous post on a message board. In fact judging from the writing style it could even be YOU who posted. In any case, a claim made on a bulletin board, is that your version of "proof"? Pretty sad. I guess then that everything you read here is true.

Pigs can fly.
by Dave1
Friday Sep 6th, 2002 1:00 PM
"It seems the article you mention is fabrication.
Your author is a proven fraud."

Your link is an anonymous post on a message board. In fact judging from the writing style it could even be YOU who posted. In any case, a claim made on a bulletin board, is that your version of "proof"? Pretty sad. I guess then that everything you read here is true.

Pigs can fly.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Thanks for your comments
Your right I should not have been so rash however,
I find "Greg Douglas" more than a little questionable.
Is that better?
But this isn't the only link (with sources) that states the author is a fraud. If this document did indeed exist you have to ask yourself why aren't revisionists like Stinnett using THIS document as the cornerstone of their case.
Also DOES this doc. exist at all?? If so should you trust the Nazis. Should you trust the author?? I can find very few people who use this document.


by hmmm
Friday Sep 6th, 2002 1:04 PM
"I find "Greg Douglas" more than a little questionable.
Is that better?"

sure I got no beef there

I can't find a single thing in this entire thread that's not more than a little questionable
by Dave1
Friday Sep 6th, 2002 1:24 PM
"I find "Greg Douglas" more than a little questionable.
Is that better?"

sure I got no beef there

I can't find a single thing in this entire thread that's not more than a little questionable
>>>>>>>>>
Well, the best I can tell you is research some of the information here and decide for yourself. And if you have any other questions let me know and I'll see if I can answer them
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