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'Please don't say this was a riot. It was genocide, pure and simple'
by Gujarat
Friday Jun 28th, 2002 10:49 AM
Many believe that the attacks on Muslims by Hindus in Gujarat amounted to 'state-sponsored violence'
Many believe that the attacks on Muslims by Hindus in Gujarat amounted to 'state-sponsored violence'. Alex Spillius reports from Ahmedabad.
When a Hindu mob killed Ayub Ali's son and destroyed his one-room home with a petrol bomb it did much more than disfigure his life forever.

"I cannot go and rebuild that place so I will go and live in a strong Muslim area," he said, standing in the baking heat of a relief camp. "The Hindus say we are not welcome here, but where can I go? India is my home."

The brutality that killed his son and up to 2,000 other Muslims in the western Indian state of Gujarat dealt a crushing blow to India's foundation as a tolerant, secular state.

By all accounts - except that of the state government - most of the bloodshed that has spanned three months was executed by Right-wing Hindu nationalist groups collectively dubbed the "saffron Taliban".

The exact number of dead is unknown, but the violence was probably worse than any of the bloody sectarian convulsions India has experienced since Partition.

It was certainly the first time officials of a political party, the Hindu nationalist Bharatiya Janata (Indian People's) Party, which controls Gujarat as well as the national government, have been implicated in turning a blind eye to mass murder.

The police force, under the BJP's sway, has also been heavily implicated in the violence, which to a large extent was pre-planned and has left India's Muslim minority of 140 million, already browbeaten and often reduced to second-class citizens, fearing for its future.

"This was state-sponsored violence, no doubt about it," said a senior police officer in Ahmadabad, the state's major city, where much of the killing was done. "The police were told by politicians to take no action. The police conduct was tantamount to murder. As an officer, I feel totally scandalised and disgusted."

Three British Muslims died in the violence, prompting the British High Commission to launch an investigation that concluded that the attacks were premeditated and carried out with the support of the state government.

It said the atrocities had the hallmarks of ethnic cleansing and that reconciliation between Hindus and Muslims was impossible while the chief minister, Narendra Modi, remained in power.

Mukul Sinha, a Hindu lawyer who is pursuing one of dozens of complaints against thugs, state assembly members and police officers, said: "Please don't say this was a riot. It was genocide, pure and simple."

Gujarat has a history of sectarian clashes. The pogrom that spread to 21 cities and 68 districts followed the murder by a Muslim mob of 59 Hindu men, women and children killed when two train carriages were set alight at Godhra station on Feb 27.

However horrific the attack, Indian civic and human rights groups are convinced it was not planned in advance. They argue that the atrocity was the spark Hindu groups were looking for to assert their anti-Muslim, anti-Pakistan agenda and boost the BJP.

The retaliation, documented meticulously by liberal activists, bore the barbarity of Rwanda and the orchestration of Nazi Germany.

There are accounts of pregnant women having their bodies ripped open and burnt alive. Women and girls were gang-raped before being hacked to death with swords and set on fire. Children were not spared as whole communities were butchered.

Mehboob Mansoori, who lost 18 of his family, told investigators: "All the women died. My brother, my three sons, one girl, my wife's mother, they all died. The bodies were piled up. I recognised them from parts of their clothes. They cut them then burned them. First they took the girls, I saw it."

Across the state, 180 mosques were destroyed or damaged along with thousands of Muslim-owned businesses and homes.

The attackers, armed with swords, machetes or iron bars, carried computer print-outs listing the addresses of Muslim families, shops and businesses. Muslim shops or homes in congested Hindu-dominated areas were singled out, attacked, ransacked and burnt.

They had hundreds of gas cylinders, available only from the local government, which were used as explosives. There had been a widespread shortage of cylinders in the preceding weeks.

There are numerous accounts of police turning a blind eye in places, and in others leading the charge or directing gangs towards Muslim houses.

Two BJP state ministers spent lengthy periods in separate police control rooms. Callers to police stations were told: "We don't have orders to save you," and "We cannot help you, we have orders from above."

Mujib Mohammed Ansari, a Muslim businessman who oversees one of the dozens of relief camps sheltering 40,000 homeless Muslims, said: "They want to destroy our economy. What does India being the world's biggest democracy mean now?"

Much of the funding of the Vishwa Hindu Parishad, or World Hindu Council, a grassroots group with close links to the BJP that is blamed for co-ordinating much of the slaughter, comes from expatriate Gujarati communities in Britain and America.

As yet there is no evidence that funds from overseas were knowingly given for illegal acts. The violence has declined into sporadic killings by both sides, but the forcing of Muslims into ghettos is being completed.

Muslim shops and homes in previously mixed or predominantly Hindu areas are being taken over by the majority community.

Muslims returning to their devastated villages are said to have been forced to sign documents pledging that they will cut off their beards, not eat meat and never touch a Hindu woman.

Ahmadabad is where Mahatma Gandhi based his pacifist campaign against British rule and spread the gospel of forbearance that is written into India's constitution. But mention of Gandhi draws a tired sneer from Prakash Sevkani, a branch manager of the VHP.

He said: "I find no reason to obey Gandhi. Times have changed. When he was alive there was communal violence in Gujarat. If he couldn't stop it when he was alive, how can he when he is dead?"
by Pacific News Service
Friday Jun 28th, 2002 11:31 AM
Fueling the worst Hindu-Muslim violence in Indian in nearly a decade is a new Hindu nationalism that adopts the militaristic rhetoric of today's world leaders. PNS Associate Editor Sandip Roy fears that an older form of Hinduism that could accept, absorb and change other cultures is being lost.

SAN FRANCISCO--When the bland bureaucratic form demands I write down my religion, I dutifully print HINDU. A religion I call my own with as little thought as I claim my parents -- a given.

Then the stories pour in of Hindu mobs barricading terrified Muslims in a schoolhouse in Gujarat and setting them ablaze. Of holy men with matted hair and saffron robes descending on the hot dusty town in Ayodhya with their iron tridents. They are Hindu, too -- perhaps more Hindu than I. I look into the face of their Hinduism and realize I almost envy it, cloaked as it is in such certainty. My Hinduism, which is more about a culture than a temple, is civilized but effete in comparison -- a cut flower in a crystal vase.

Who is the real Hindu? What happened to my Hinduism?

Much has been written about the rise of Hindu nationalism in India. The Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP), once an outcast in Indian politics because of its Hindu chauvinism, is now in power. Not just in power, but presiding over a coalition with some of the very parties that not so long ago refused to associate with it, and caused the first BJP government in 1996 to fall in just 13 days.

What does this mean? That India is finally declaring that the 1947 act of partition that created the Muslim state of Pakistan in effect created a Hindu state named India? That secularism was just a fig leaf plastered onto that Hindu state, and finally, inevitably, it is slipping off? That Hinduism is being reincarnated as a muscular nationalism hell-bent on settling scores from centuries ago? Against Muslim invaders, British traders.

Dare I say it -- Hinduism is becoming a certain kind of man, proclaiming a type of male certainty. Certainty -- as in you have to be for us or against us. Certainty, as in smoking the enemy out of their caves. A single muscular line, like a missile that cannot be deflected from its purpose.

Is this a Hinduism that Gandhi might have recognized? Gandhi, too, was Hindu. Gandhi was from Gujarat as well, where the communal riots now rage with unspeakable ferocity. But now he is a portrait on the wall of a bureaucrat, forever staring at the back of the bureaucrat's head. When Time Magazine was choosing its man of the century, I was deluged by e-mails from Indians trying to make sure I went to Time's Web site to vote for Gandhi. It was strange -- their enthusiasm was no indicator of the resonance Gandhi had in their lives. He was merely our best bet at having an Indian named the person of the century -- a commodity.

Where is Gandhi now? Or Nelson Mandela? Or all the other leaders whose certainty was not a single-minded heat-seeking missile? Whose message was about looking into the eye of the opponent to see if they could see themselves in there. I don't know if they could play any of the extreme sports our world leaders play now. After Sept. 11, the rhetoric has been so much more about nationalism, taking care of our own, closing doors, sealing borders, us vs. them, weeding out terrorists, "you can run but you can't hide." Bush, Putin, Arroyo, Sharon, Vajpayee -- each a player more certain than the next of the destiny of the nation each leads. This new Hinduism is in tune with the world's rhetoric -- black and white in its certainty, defining itself by how it can teach someone a lesson, show them who is boss.

But there was another Hinduism that was about absorption. Absorbing conquerors, their music, their food, their poetry -- and yes, their seed, their vices, their greed. That Hinduism is now derided as passive, unable to compete in the world. It cannot spearhead agitations or mobilize mob armies. But it still exists -- not necessarily in secularists like me. Up in Marin County (yes, where else?), I met a master Indian musician, the sarode player Ali Akbar Khan. Now 80 years old, his name immediately reveals his Muslim parentage. Yet his sister is named Annapurna, a Hindu mother goddess. Now Khan teaches Indian classical raagas with mellifluous names like "Purbasree" in San Rafael, in a room whose window has the stained glass image of Saraswati, the Hindu goddess of the arts and learning.

I wanted to ask him if he was Hindu or Muslim. He said he was a musician -- music to him was next to God. In some strange, romantic way, I felt more in touch with my Hinduism that night than I had in a long time.
by bump
Monday Dec 16th, 2002 11:49 PM
to the top
by payback
Tuesday Dec 17th, 2002 12:23 AM
maybe, the muslims in pakistan will think a little better when they slaughter, rape, and enslave hindus in that region. It's amazing how muslims cry when the table is turned on them, but say nothing when they invade and slaughter in countries.
by God damn it
Wednesday Dec 18th, 2002 1:17 PM
god damn it, it is not genocide, just some good old fashion state sponsored rioting. I think it is time we wipe an entire arab country off the face the earth, (anyone give a damn about Syria) so these dumb musliums finally can understand what genocide actually is.
by ...
Wednesday Dec 18th, 2002 7:23 PM
--"I think it is time we wipe an entire arab country off the face the earth, (anyone give a damn about Syria) so these dumb musliums finally can understand what genocide actually is."

Now imagine someone saying this about Jews. Since Israel is the only country in the Middle East with weapons of mass destruction, and since mainstream America hates Arabs (thanks to Hollywood's and the media's intensive dehumanization campaign), genocide against Arabs is possible.

In fact, it is happening right under our noses in Iraq (2 million dead of which 700,000 are children). We destroyed their water supply (desalination plants, water pump stations), power stations, roads, bridges, dams, pharmaceuticals, agriculture, basically their entire civilian infrastructure and then we prevent their access to outside sources of medicine and food via sanctions.

Genocide is on going right under our very noses, out in the open and in present, modern times yet nothing is done except more threats of war to kill even more Arabs there for no other reason than to make sure they don't have a single weapon that could possibly harm an Israeli (since no one other than Israelis feel threatened by Iraq or are clamoring for a war against Iraq as the Israelis are).

No one in the region wants this war except Israel. Israel's enthusiasm for this war was so embarrassing, that Israel's supporters here in the US had to tell the Israelis to shut up about it.
by hey
Wednesday Dec 18th, 2002 8:19 PM
Imagine hearing someone say commit genocide on Jews? Imagine hearing someone say wipe out the Jewish state?

Honey, people say that here on Indymedia, every day! That's business as usual!

Not that any of the leftists protest... they blame the Jews for those people who want to kill Jews. Go figure.
by ...........
Wednesday Dec 18th, 2002 8:23 PM
There's alot of protest. People are complaining about those types all the time. But, this FACT doesn't conform to your preconceived notions, so you close your eyes and chant "it isn't so, it isn't so, it isn't so ...."
Meanwhile, some fraud somewhere is smiling at having kept another sucker.
by ...
Thursday Dec 19th, 2002 3:41 AM
--"Y'all oughta be ashamed of yourselves, the both of you."

I've never made any genocidal statements against anyone. And I regularly condemn those racist remarks made against Jews. All I was doing was pointing out that genocide against Arabs is not only a mainstream idea but is on going in Iraq as we speak.
by chiefs
Thursday Dec 19th, 2002 8:09 AM
And while you dwell on that, you ignore the genocide against jews/christians in all arab countries, as well a the genocide of saddam hussain against the kurds, As well as the genocide in places in sudan, nigeria, by wonderfull, peace loving arab muslims.
by yip
Thursday Dec 19th, 2002 10:05 AM
Palestine is a country of arab ethnicity which is about 30% christian. You know... bethlehem, where baby jesus was born, located in palestine.. The church (not mosque) of the nativity is in palestine. most palestinians that you will meet in the US are christian. Some people burned down a palestinian church in the Eastbay recently. Iraq, another arab country, has a lot of christians too, in fact.
by chief
Thursday Dec 19th, 2002 10:09 AM
It would be nice to keep this string focused mainly on india, as the genocide by muslims against hindus was immense over the century. It makes the genocide of jews by hitler pale in comparison. The estimate of hindus killed by muslims in the last 1400 years is about 80 million. Even today, the slaughter of hindus continues, but when a backlash occurs, It's some muslim that cries, "poor muslims". This is typical of muslims, they like to start history where they see fit, rather than look at the past and see why this happens. A good source of info on india is But be prepared to do alot of reading, there is alot of online books there. islam has a very dark past, and it cannot be ignored anymore, especialy now that we have access to so much info, including islams own written history, written by islams own scholars.
by chief
Thursday Dec 19th, 2002 10:13 AM
when will you get it though your head, that palistine isn't a country? and "palistinians were never indigionous to that area? jews and christians were,

also, much of arabian countries first belonged to jews, so, if you really want to roll back things in time, and award land based on previous settlements, read this:

The first Holocaust against the Jews was not Hitler's but rather one carried out by Islamic generals. This earlier Holocaust, occurring over 1,000 years ago, is nevertheless acutely relevant today given the fact that a genocidal program against Israel is presently being carried out by Islamic terrorists. An examination of the historic Islamic Holocaust against the Jews sheds light on the nature of today's threat.

Christian writers chronicled the pre-Islamic Kingdom of Himyar (the Biblical Sheba), located along the Arabian Red Sea where "Conversion to Judaism of influential circles" was popular and Jews prospered. Before Islam, Judea was a Byzantine Christian province and a center of Jewish life, Tiberius serving as a significant Jewish city. Babylonia was also a great center of Jewish learning and commerce. In the Kingdom of Himyar, according to Christian writers, "Jewish priests (presumably rabbis) from Tiberius ... formed part the suite of King Du Noas and served as his envoys in negotiations with Christian cities." Jewish tribes were scattered across Arabia and the city of Yathrib, later renamed Medina, was a major Jewish city. In "Arabs in History" Bernard Lewis writes:

Jewish tribes from the north, especially the Banu Nadir and Banu Quraiza, some 280 miles north of Mecca, had originally settled the city of Medina. The comparative richness of the town attracted an infiltration of pagan Arabs who came at first as clients of the Jews and ultimately succeeded in dominating themthe town was torn by the feuds of the rival Arab tribes of Aus and Khazraj, with the Jews maintaining an uneasy balance of power. The latter, engaged mainly in agriculture and handicrafts, were economically and culturally superior to the Arabs, and were consequently disliked.... as soon as the Arabs had attained unity through the agency of Muhammad they attacked and ultimately eliminated the Jews.
In "The Traditions of Islam" Alfred Guillaume writes of the demise of the Jews of Arabia:

At the dawn of Islam the Jews dominated the economic life of the Hijaz [Arabia]. They held all the best land... at Medina they must have formed at least half of the population. There was also a Jewish settlement to the north of the Gulf of Aqaba....Jewish prosperity was a challenge to the Arabs, particularly the Quraysh at Mecca and ... at Medina.
Besides being a religious Prophet, Muhammad was also a brilliant military leader who completely conquered and subdued the Arabian Peninsula. In the process he pillaged Jewish wealth and land as a means of raising revenue. Theft and land expropriation became official policy as did mass expulsions, extortion, forced conversion, the murder of Jews in Medina and elsewhere and a mass slaughter of the Jews of Khaibar. Guilliame writes:

They had irritated him (Muhammad) by their refusal to recognize him as a prophet.... The existence of pockets of disaffected Jews in and around his base was a cause of uneasiness and they had to be eliminated if he [Muhammad] was to wage war without anxiety.
As Muhammad moved toward military ascendancy in Arabia, the situation for Jews grew more precarious. Guilliame writes:

A tribe of Jews in the neighborhood of Medina fell under suspicion of treachery and was forced to lay down their arms and evacuate their settlements. Valuable land and much booty fell into the hands of the Muslims. The neighboring tribe of Qurayza, who were soon to suffer annihilation, made no move to help their co-religionists, and their allies, the Aus, were afraid to give them active support.
Muhammad was precise in his genocidal program when he declared, ""Two religions may not dwell together on the Arabian Peninsula."(Muwatta, in Al-Zurkani's commentary IV, p. 71) Muhammad's generals and successors, Abu Bakr and Omar, exterminated the entire Jewish population of northern Arabia along with the Jewish refuge of Khaibar. Arabia has been Judenrein ever since.

The Koran, Surah 33, places the imprimatur of Allah on the Arabian Holocaust:

... Some you slew and others you took captive. He (Allah] made you masters of their [the Jews'] land, their houses and their goods, and of yet another land [Khaibar] on which you had never set foot before. Truly, Allah has power over all things.
Bernard Lewis observed that after the destruction of Khaibar, the Muslims developed a policy regarding Jewish survivors of the slaughter. The status of dhimmi or second class citizenship was established. Dhimmi status would eventually extend to Christians as well along with all non-Muslims living in any country that had submitted to Islam. The Khaibar survivors were, among other degradations, forced to pay a 50 percent yearly tribute in exchange for their lives.

Another Islamic Holocaust against the Jews, may G-d forbid, appears to be in the offing at this time. Numerous Islamic texts specifically sanction such a Holocaust against the Jews and these texts are being studied and literally followed by countless numbers of true believers. The world failed to take notice when Hitler published Mein Kampf. G-d willing, the same colossal mistake won't be made again.

by reader
Thursday Dec 19th, 2002 10:25 AM
"The attackers, armed with swords, machetes or iron bars, carried computer print-outs listing the addresses of Muslim families, shops and businesses."

This is the most interesting part of the article. You have a technologically sophisticated country that excells in software design and application (India) sponsoring the most brutal, beastly, and inhumane acts that I have read about in my entire life. The stories of how these men raped and butchered and tortured children and women are absolutely astounding in the depth of how animalistic and crude the attackers sank. I mean, words cannot describe how absolutely brutal and evil these people are.

And they call themselves "Hindis."

I have lost all respect for Hinduism. I once thought it a great religion full of light. Now I see that Hindis are just hypocrites, as violent, beastly, and insanely brutal as hardline Zionists and fanatic Muslims.

This is a very important topic and I hope we can stop talking about Zionism for a moment.

I hope to hear from those who practice "Hinduism" about their understanding and demonstration of "ahimsa."
by ...
Thursday Dec 19th, 2002 10:53 AM
--"you ignore the genocide against jews/christians in all arab countries"

I didn't realize Arabs were committing genocide against Jews/Christians in Arab countries (who are by the way also Arabs). In any case, there are plenty of Christians in the Occupied Territories (does Bethlehem ring a bell) who are being robbed by the Israelis. In fact, there used to be a flourishing population of Christians in the holy land (20% of the population of pre-1948 Palestine). Also, when Israel randomly bombed Beirut and other Lebanese cities in their invasion in 1982, they weren't too concerned about whether they were killing Muslims, Christians, or even Jews for that matter.

Israel bombed Beirut's only Synagogue during its invasion of Lebanon in 1982.

[Israel claimed] that [only] 40 buildings were destroyed in the Beirut of these was Beirut's only synagogue...(NYT, p. A17, 8-12-82)
Despite considerable effort, representatives of the World Zionist Organization were unable to convince the Jews of West Beirut to immigrate to Israel. "'Why should we leave,' they asked? Here are our houses and our friends."' (Yediot Ahronot 7-19-82)
-Noam Chomsky The Fateful Triangle

The leader of the Lebanese Jewish community is reported to have said:
"The Lebanese Jews are grateful to Mr. Arafat. We have no need of any outside protection because no one has touched a hair on our heads. We reject Israeli reports that the community is in any danger. We want no outside protectors, Israeli or otherwise. We simply plan to go on living as we always have, as Lebanese."
-Alfred Lilienthal, The Zionist Connection II, p. 782.

Also see Paul Martin, "Palestinians send food to Jews besieged in Beirut synagogue."
The Times (London), November 4, 1975, p. A5.
See also "PLO guarded our embassy U.S. admits," Toronto Star, May 16, 1985, p. A12.

Here's what the Christian Pope in Egypt has to say about the Israel/Palestine conflict:

It may be convenient for Israel's supporters to point to every injustice on the face of the planet to try to deflect attention away from their beloved country, but it must be so inconvenient that the many of those they site (Kurds, Copts, Algerians, Lebanese, etc.) fully support the Palestinians and resent our (US) support of Israel.
by in case you were wondering
Thursday Dec 19th, 2002 11:21 AM
One in ten Iraqis is Christian. Tariq Aziz is a Christian.

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