Trophy Pics by Israeli Jews Updated

this guy blew himself up in attempt to kill civilians in Israel. I think it's worth celebrating that he only managed to kill himself.

Stop posting propaganda...or I'll have to continually post pictures of the 6-year old boy "suicide bombers" on parade in Palestine with their sick obliging parents... I think that's a little more barbaric than this photo, thank you.

Are you sure? His body looks pretty intact to me. Plus, that's Arabic writing on the sign of the store, I don't know many Jewish neighborhoods with those!

It is still a sorry comment on the inhumanity that we all are being trained to embrace. Talked to an Israeli Immigrant to US and he was honest, that he was trained dutring his stint in the armed forces to think of Palistinians "as dogs, they should all just be shot."

The photo is sad of example of American tax dollars used to support yet another highly repressive regime.

Israel should withdraw to its pre 1967 borders, close down its illegal settlements and stop the harsh represssion of the Palestinian people.

An opressed people will fight back with whatever means possible. There will be no end to the violence until the Palestinians are granted a homeland.

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(There will be no end to the violence until the Palestinians are granted a homeland. )

The opportunity was there for a homeland with the UN partition plan, and Israel didn;t gain control of the West Bank until 1967, alomst 20 years after Israel was founded. So can it really be that the violence is about the lack of a homeland, because clearly they could have had one multiple times over the past 50 years.

to Jeff Andrews :

the Partition Plan of 1947 proposed to give more than 50% of Palestine to the Jewish State than constituted 34% of the population. The plan in the first place is not legal as it never took into consideration the wishes of the people living there! In 1922, the Jewish population was 10% of the total population. If you carefully read the history from an objective source, you will see the truth. There is a great documentary that was shon a few years on PBS, 50 years of the Arab-Israeli conflict.

QTR Wrote:
the Partition Plan of 1947 proposed to give more than 50% of Palestine to the Jewish State than constituted 34% of the population. The plan in the first place is not legal as it never took into consideration the wishes of the people living there! In 1922, the Jewish population was 10% of the total population. If you carefully read the history from an objective source, you will see the truth.

Jeff Replies:
I have carefully read a number of books. Morris, Khalidi, Segev, Shlaim, Sachar,... I am fascinated by this region and the conflict.

But i find your line of argument to be weak. Certainly the Arabs of Palestine did not want the Zionist/Jews ot have any part of the land. But at the same time, the UN resolutions are held up as the basis for defining what is now called Palestinian land, namely res. 242. So it can;t be had both ways.

As far as using the term 'legal', well, see above. The UNited States is illegal, as is most countries. Lands that became Arab and Muslim after Islam swept out of the peninsula could be considered illegal, as there was no straw vote cast as to whether the indigenous population wanted to become muslim.

it seems to me that if peace is what we want, based on justice for everyone in the region, and that means the Jews too, then there is gonna have to be some hard and painful compromise on both sides. The Palestinians are going to have to realize that Israel, as a Jewish state is there to stay. While they may get repirations for land lost, they are not going to be allowed to move back to Israel, especially not since we are talking about multiple generations of people.

The Israelis have to give up their expansionist dreams and live with a contiguous Palestinian state in the land called the West Bank, Judea-Sameria, etc. as well as Gaza.

I am not so much interested in coffee house discusiion sof justice, as that is a very subjective word. I thinkm talking about pragmatic steps is much more interesting and productive.

Respectfully submitted,

Jeff

Jeff wrote:

"But i find your line of argument to be weak. Certainly the Arabs of Palestine did not want the Zionist/Jews ot have any part of the land. But at the same time, the UN resolutions are held up as the basis for defining what is now called Palestinian land, namely res. 242. So it can;t be had both ways. "

Qais Says:
I'm sorry but I don't understand the logic, 242 is very different from the partition plan, in 242, Palestinians get to keep the land the OWNED, the partition plan gives Israelis land confiscated from palestinian civilians. These is a big difference. One more thing, to me, zionists and Jews are two different things.

Jeff Wrote
it seems to me that if peace is what we want, based on justice for everyone in the region, and that means the Jews too, then there is gonna have to be some hard and painful compromise on both sides. The Palestinians are going to have to realize that Israel, as a Jewish state is there to stay. While they may get repirations for land lost, they are not going to be allowed to move back to Israel, especially not since we are talking about multiple generations of people.

Qais Replies:
Agreed, but in reality, what are the Israelis compromising? what are they gonna lose? west bank and Gaza are more trouble than they are a benefit. Israelis keep talking about how important it is not to compromise security when they never had it to begin with.

Jeff Wrote:
I am not so much interested in coffee house discusiion of justice, as that is a very subjective word. I think talking about pragmatic steps is much more interesting and productive.

Qais replies:
well that's too bad, but although "justice" is a very subjective word, I don't think it's hard to see why Palestinians are frustrated to see that the Israeli government still refuses to take any reponsibility for 1948 and 1967 refugees, not even symbolically. The settlements problem is also very frustrating........
you can not completely forget the past and hope that a situation like this can be solved. Both Sides must take responsibility for their actions for the past century.

Jeff wrote:

"But i find your line of argument to be weak. Certainly the Arabs of Palestine did not want the Zionist/Jews ot have any part of the land. But at the same time, the UN resolutions are held up as the basis for defining what is now called Palestinian land, namely res. 242. So it can;t be had both ways. "

Qais Says:
I'm sorry but I don't understand the logic, 242 is very different from the partition plan, in 242, Palestinians get to keep the land the OWNED, the partition plan gives Israelis land confiscated from palestinian civilians. These is a big difference. One more thing, to me, zionists and Jews are two different things.

Jeff replies:
Ok, to clarify, you used the term 'illegal.' Legal/illegal are not ideas that exist in a vacuum. They are only relevant to who makes the law and who can enforce the law. In the case of the partition plan, that was the UN. So one cannot reject the UN's authority when it is convenient. As far as the Palestinians owning the land, the vast majority of the land was owned by the Ottoman empire itself, or absentee land owners. It then wen tinto the hands of the British, and ultimately to the UN. With respect to those who became refugees, the majority of fellaheen were not landed property owners. That not all Jews are zionists is acknowledged, although most are. I grew up in a very Jewish neighborhood in West LA, and it wasn't until i came to the bay area that i met anti-zionist jews. But the Jewish component of zionism is very important in the area we are talking about. Jordan and Egypt, Arab nations, occupied the west bank and gaza strip for almost 20 years. There was not the same outcry as there is now, because the faxt that Israle is Jewish.

Jeff Wrote
it seems to me that if peace is what we want, based on justice for everyone in the region, and that means the Jews too, then there is gonna have to be some hard and painful compromise on both sides. The Palestinians are going to have to realize that Israel, as a Jewish state is there to stay. While they may get repirations for land lost, they are not going to be allowed to move back to Israel, especially not since we are talking about multiple generations of people.

Qais Replies:
Agreed, but in reality, what are the Israelis compromising? what are they gonna lose? west bank and Gaza are more trouble than they are a benefit. Israelis keep talking about how important it is not to compromise security when they never had it to begin with.

And Jeff says:
I would disagree. I don't think it is fair to underestimate not only the existential feeling of threat the jews feel, but also the strategic one. For israel, and extra mile or two of territory can mean enough extra time to prevent an armored thrust across its mid-section in order to allow for american military assistance. That is a real concern for israel. Add to that the fear of a Palestinian state where weapons of mass destruction can be developed 10 miles from tel aviv. They may be paranoid, but i can;t blame them. Outside of egypt and jordan, the arab world still refuses to even acknowledge israel exists, let alone attempt to have any semblance of a normal relationship with the country.


Jeff Wrote:
I am not so much interested in coffee house discusiion of justice, as that is a very subjective word. I think talking about pragmatic steps is much more interesting and productive.

Qais replies:
well that's too bad, but although "justice" is a very subjective word, I don't think it's hard to see why Palestinians are frustrated to see that the Israeli government still refuses to take any reponsibility for 1948 and 1967 refugees, not even symbolically. The settlements problem is also very frustrating........
you can not completely forget the past and hope that a situation like this can be solved. Both Sides must take responsibility for their actions for the past century.

Jeff says:
I don;t think you or i are in disagreement here, but it is clear to me that there is an assumption among many progressives that based on its existence alone, israel (and israelis) are gettign what they deserve. Fine if one wants to take that route, but if that is your opinion, please don;t pretend to be interested in a peaceful solution where both jews and Palestinins have self determination. I think that as part of a final status agreement, Israel should pay reperations and acknowledge that its existence and the Palestinian refugee crisis are not coincedental occurances. But the idea of a right of return however is to me nothing but a re-coded attack on the israel's right to exist itself. Settlements can be dealt with the way Israel dealth with them in the 1978 camp david accords. Some stay some go. Settlements are not the main stumbling block here, recognition of israel's right to exist, right of return, and water and resource distribution are the biggest obstacles.

if your land was stoloen from you, your life and your family, everything you ever owned, would you not go to great lengths to eliminate the thieves? What ever the cost, would you not sacrfice your life for what you believe is right? If not, then search for your manhood.
Then we find the tyrant who would stand proud that they claim a life of yet another hero.

6 million Jews were killed and another million or two became refugees because of the Holocaust. They were subjected to a very systematic program of disappropriation, removal from their homes and genocide.

700,000 Jews were ousted from Arab lands from 1948-1953. They too were forcibly disappropriated and expelled from their homes, if not worse.

Most of the people from both categories had no other option but to go to Israel and start a new life there, as the shameful refugee record of the USA and British Commonwealth as well as Latin America during World War II is well documented.

Let me ask you this hypothetical question, since you seem to be a big believer in Palestinians having a right to fight to reclaim what you believe is their land: Are the Jews now in Israel but descended from the families expelled from their homes justified to fight to reclaim their old homes, as well? What's good for the goose is good for the gander.