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Questioning the War on Terrorism
Follow-up on our march to legislators demanding an inquiry of 9-11. Bush persuades Congress to limit investigation to House/Senate Intelligence Oversight Committee, to be headed by Snider (Ex-CIA). Time to protest! Police make it harder to exercise our first amendment rights.
Questioning
The War on Terrorism
In January, activists marched down Market Street to Senator Feinstein’s office to demand a Congressional Inquiry of 9-11. The attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon have been used to justify the U.S. bombing and occupation of Afghanistan, the Israeli assaults on Palestine, future attacks on Iraq, Lebanon, Somalia, the Philippines, Colombia, and other countries. We have been told that the world will never be the same since September 11th, but we have not been told the truth about who was responsible for the attacks nor why.
Recent legislation has attacked our constitutionally guaranteed civil liberties, especially those of immigrants and people of color. Repressive legislation and human rights abuse have been mirrored in other countries which are outlawing dissent and increasing political repression. Racial profiling has been institutionalized and condoned, permitting the secret rounding up of thousands of Arab Americans and other people of Middle Eastern background.
Those who have gained from 9-11 are the recipients of the billions earmarked for the military, and corporations who have received huge bailouts and tax incentives. Those who have suffered and been ignored include the hundreds of thousands of laid off workers, and those who have lost their social services. This appears to be part of a long-range strategy to turn the clock back on the hard earned gains of the civil rights', women's', and environmental movements, to consolidate U.S. global domination, and to serve the interests of transnational corporations.
Shocking as the events of September 11th were, vital questions remain unanswered, while the whole mainstream media joined the bandwagon towards war. Dissent, however widespread, was studiously ignored. These are some of the questions we raised when we met with Senator Boxer and Senator Feinstein’s staff in January:
Why were no fighter planes dispatched to intercept the four hijacked planes on September 11th , in violation of standard procedures?
Who created, trained and funded the Al Qaeda Network?
What is the relationship between Bin Laden, his family and the Bush family and the Carlyle Group?
What is the U.S. relationship with Pakistan, and especially with its intelligence service, the ISI?
Why did the then director of the ISI have $100,000 transferred to the man whom the FBI now calls the ringleader of the Sept. 11th attacks, and why does the U.S. not pursue this question?
Senator Boxer’s staff recently phoned me to inform me of the upcoming joint House Senate Inquiry of 9-11. Apparently, Senator Daschle gave in to Bush and Cheney’s requests that the investigation of 9-11 be very narrowly limited to “Determining what U.S. intelligence agencies knew before September 11th and how the CIA, which had a task force focused on terrorist leader Osama Bin Laden for several years, could have been caught so off guard by the attacks.”
Outside staff, notably L. Britt Snyder, ex-CIA Inspector General (and Special Council to his friend, CIA Director George Tenet), has been hired to head the inquiry. I can’t believe the inquiry would be more than a whitewash or a farce in determining what really happened. What is the truth behind this crime against humanity? Can we allow the CIA to define the past and shape our future?
Last September, when we went to Washington DC to protest the war, we created a beautiful banner with an image of a heart upon the Earth, surrounded by a circle of people, and a quote from Alice Walker-
One Earth One People One Love
The other side said-
One Air One Water One Hope
Respect All Life
We used the banner in local anti-war demonstrations, including our two hour, weekly “Listening for a Change” event in downtown Palo Alto. Unfortunately, the banner was lost in New York City at the protests against the World Economic Forum. In New York, police confiscated my bamboo poles, which made it very difficult to display and challenging to carry in the big protest march (that’s why it was lost).
I made a new banner, with the theme of the World Social Forum, surrounded by symbols of peace, a dove, a heart…-
“Another World is Possible”
After I learned that L. Britt Snider would be in charge of the 9-11 inquiry, I made a big 8’ x 5’ banner, which said-
“Allowing Ex-CIA Snider to Investigate 9-11
Is like allowing Ex-CEO Lay to Investigate Enron”
Mike Ruppert spoke in San Francisco (February 21st) on the complicity of the Bush Administration and the CIA with the attacks of 9-11. Inspired, I added another side to the huge banner-
REAL TERRORISTS-
Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld
GUILTY of 9-11, you ask
“Why?”Oil, Drugs, Power…
“How?” http://www.tenc.net
When we hung the banner in Palo Alto last Wednesday, during our “Listening” event, a policeman came by to warn us that it was illegal to hang banners or signs from trees or light fixtures. Old laws, new laws, have been passed, are being passed, sometimes implemented, sometimes ignored; they can be applied anytime to crush dissent, to make it harder and harder to raise questions, to challenge “the big lies” which are defining the world, and trying to limit our hopes and dreams for the future.
I believe our hope lies in raising hard questions, in demanding accountability from government, in daring to dream of a better, different world for our children, and all children.
The War on Terrorism
In January, activists marched down Market Street to Senator Feinstein’s office to demand a Congressional Inquiry of 9-11. The attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon have been used to justify the U.S. bombing and occupation of Afghanistan, the Israeli assaults on Palestine, future attacks on Iraq, Lebanon, Somalia, the Philippines, Colombia, and other countries. We have been told that the world will never be the same since September 11th, but we have not been told the truth about who was responsible for the attacks nor why.
Recent legislation has attacked our constitutionally guaranteed civil liberties, especially those of immigrants and people of color. Repressive legislation and human rights abuse have been mirrored in other countries which are outlawing dissent and increasing political repression. Racial profiling has been institutionalized and condoned, permitting the secret rounding up of thousands of Arab Americans and other people of Middle Eastern background.
Those who have gained from 9-11 are the recipients of the billions earmarked for the military, and corporations who have received huge bailouts and tax incentives. Those who have suffered and been ignored include the hundreds of thousands of laid off workers, and those who have lost their social services. This appears to be part of a long-range strategy to turn the clock back on the hard earned gains of the civil rights', women's', and environmental movements, to consolidate U.S. global domination, and to serve the interests of transnational corporations.
Shocking as the events of September 11th were, vital questions remain unanswered, while the whole mainstream media joined the bandwagon towards war. Dissent, however widespread, was studiously ignored. These are some of the questions we raised when we met with Senator Boxer and Senator Feinstein’s staff in January:
Why were no fighter planes dispatched to intercept the four hijacked planes on September 11th , in violation of standard procedures?
Who created, trained and funded the Al Qaeda Network?
What is the relationship between Bin Laden, his family and the Bush family and the Carlyle Group?
What is the U.S. relationship with Pakistan, and especially with its intelligence service, the ISI?
Why did the then director of the ISI have $100,000 transferred to the man whom the FBI now calls the ringleader of the Sept. 11th attacks, and why does the U.S. not pursue this question?
Senator Boxer’s staff recently phoned me to inform me of the upcoming joint House Senate Inquiry of 9-11. Apparently, Senator Daschle gave in to Bush and Cheney’s requests that the investigation of 9-11 be very narrowly limited to “Determining what U.S. intelligence agencies knew before September 11th and how the CIA, which had a task force focused on terrorist leader Osama Bin Laden for several years, could have been caught so off guard by the attacks.”
Outside staff, notably L. Britt Snyder, ex-CIA Inspector General (and Special Council to his friend, CIA Director George Tenet), has been hired to head the inquiry. I can’t believe the inquiry would be more than a whitewash or a farce in determining what really happened. What is the truth behind this crime against humanity? Can we allow the CIA to define the past and shape our future?
Last September, when we went to Washington DC to protest the war, we created a beautiful banner with an image of a heart upon the Earth, surrounded by a circle of people, and a quote from Alice Walker-
One Earth One People One Love
The other side said-
One Air One Water One Hope
Respect All Life
We used the banner in local anti-war demonstrations, including our two hour, weekly “Listening for a Change” event in downtown Palo Alto. Unfortunately, the banner was lost in New York City at the protests against the World Economic Forum. In New York, police confiscated my bamboo poles, which made it very difficult to display and challenging to carry in the big protest march (that’s why it was lost).
I made a new banner, with the theme of the World Social Forum, surrounded by symbols of peace, a dove, a heart…-
“Another World is Possible”
After I learned that L. Britt Snider would be in charge of the 9-11 inquiry, I made a big 8’ x 5’ banner, which said-
“Allowing Ex-CIA Snider to Investigate 9-11
Is like allowing Ex-CEO Lay to Investigate Enron”
Mike Ruppert spoke in San Francisco (February 21st) on the complicity of the Bush Administration and the CIA with the attacks of 9-11. Inspired, I added another side to the huge banner-
REAL TERRORISTS-
Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld
GUILTY of 9-11, you ask
“Why?”Oil, Drugs, Power…
“How?” http://www.tenc.net
When we hung the banner in Palo Alto last Wednesday, during our “Listening” event, a policeman came by to warn us that it was illegal to hang banners or signs from trees or light fixtures. Old laws, new laws, have been passed, are being passed, sometimes implemented, sometimes ignored; they can be applied anytime to crush dissent, to make it harder and harder to raise questions, to challenge “the big lies” which are defining the world, and trying to limit our hopes and dreams for the future.
I believe our hope lies in raising hard questions, in demanding accountability from government, in daring to dream of a better, different world for our children, and all children.
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I believe in what you're doing, and I hope you can convert more to the cause. The U.S. government cannot be allowed to do this to the world. Questions must be answered.
I don't think they will be, though. This will go on as long as the government can get it to.
Don't stop trying, though.
Sean
What can I do to resolve this dilemma? I love my country and what it stands for, yet hate the fact that it is being run by bloodthirsty power-mongers. Nader should have backed out when he realized the risk (fact now) of his running. I am hating what we have become.
I would like to know if there is anything that I can do to help spread the word to 80 +/-% of our country that is listening only to major media networks.
How did we allow this to happen?
Suggestions on what to do and why.
Even if one does not buy the so-called "conspiracy" theories on the so-called "war on terror" it does not stop one from calling for a full and public inquiry.
Also see Congressman Kucinich's Prayer for Our Country
http://www.counterpunch.org/kucinichprayer.html
Left and Right have reason to come together to call for a fair and open inquiry into the absoute failure of intelligence and security systems -- criminal or not, there is negligence.
Is it so hard to believe that a handful of people can make an agreement that benifits themselves to our detriment?
Has everyone else forgotten that GWB sr. was in the CIA before he became president?
Why is it that everytime we have a Bush for president we get a war in the middle east?
Take off your red white and blue blinders folks!
PS: I notice that the folks who think the above article is BS have made no attempt to support their positions.
Maybe they are CIA?
Is it a "ridiculous idea" to say that the FBI,CIA, and local police agencies have infiltrated spied on and assasinated it's own citzens, all for having dissedent views? Well guess what jack ass? THE FUCKING GOVERNMENT HAS BEEN DOING IT SINCE AT LEAST THE LATE SIXTIES AND THEY FUCKING ADMITED IT!!! EVER HEARD OF COINTELPRO???WHAT ABOUT IRAN CONTRA? OR WATERGATE?
Pepole like you make me sick. Either your so god damned brainwashed by the state controlled media that you won't believe your government is up to no good even when they admit it, or your too fucking stupid to realize that they have thier own interest at heart, not yours. Wise up shit for brains, pepole will get away with what they can, and when you give them unlimited power, that they'll run with it. I hope you get hit by a fucking bus.
Big brother's not as smart as you'd like to make him out to be.
Anyway as long as the conspirators continue to let me have my cushy job, fat salary, 4 bedroom house with 2 car garage, 3 hots and a cot, and all the cool perks that go along with being me...well I say "keep up the good work!"
It appears that you are a non-thinking sheep.
I would suggest that you stick with FOX News (The channel for the lowest Intellect in the population) with needs for a a Shepherd.
You can be sure that they will not challenge you to think.
Hey isn't it cool how that paper pasport blew out of Mohammed Atta's pocket. out of the airplane inferno, out of the WTC inferno (second inferno), and made it intact into the street whhen even steel girders were melting & the black boxes destroyed? I also think it was very kind of him not to use an alias....when in a normal covert operation that would have been the norm. So many fortunate coincidences. (The whole 9/11 story is a string of such bull shit ).
It is non thinking Unpatriotic peices of Sheep like you that messed up this country. If it was the Revolutionary War would you have said: I must obey my master & not think?
Fuck the gov
I bet not one of you loudmouths will do it though, 'cause you have NO BALLS! So shut the fuck up, post to this forum from China, Saudi
Arabia or where ever!
l u n i t i c t s......... oh dear!!!!
may you wrench the truth from a tightly clenched fist.
toBy
The ONLY reason you idiots are allowed to spew your drivel and libelous rhetoric about the EVILS of this great nation (and her government) is because you live here. Try living in ANY other nation in this world and spewing defamatory bullshit against it’s government. I have been to Africa. I have been to China. I have been central Asia and Western Europe you schmuck. Big news flash for all you idiots out here…If you live in America, you live in the greatest nation on this planet!!! It’s not perfect, but IT DEFINITELY IS THE BEST. Trust a man, who’s seen the alternatives. I do not work for CNN, Fox News, or the government. I’m a self made man that started with nothing and now have more than my fair share. And I thank GOD that I was born into this country and not any other one of those God forsaken hellholes.
“may you wrench the truth from a tightly clenched fist. “
Here’s a little thought experiment for you. Put this slogan on a poster board and take it out in the streets. When people ask about it, tell them. Tell them you are anti-American, anti-government, and that they are sheep being misled. I dare you. If you don’t get your ass whipped, at a minimum you’ll be looked at like a retard.
Scum sucking lunitict.
Here's a partial list of the countries in which you could "get away" with it.
Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Britain, Germany, France, Poland, Italy, Belgium, South Africa, Republic of Ireland, Spain, Portugal.
So never mind this "only in the US" baloney.
Die off, you greedy mother fucker.
Iraq, Iran, Turkey, China, Zimbabwe, Pakistan, Russia, North Korea, Cuba, Vietnam, Burma, Laos, Kenya, Congo, Zaire, Nigeria, Libya, Saudia Arabia, Syria, Yemen, Indonesia.
Bon voyage!!!
oh...and I think everyone might start looking at the government as a whole and realize the Liberals are just as bad as the Conservatives...cause both sides have been taking away our freedoms as far back as WWII.
toBy
The U.S. Constitution (thankfully) says nothing about helping those who are less fortunate than ourselves.
While I have a definite MORAL obligation to do so under my personal ethics, no government can force me, as a citizen, to do anything of the sort without some serious coercive (and potentially violent) measures.... And that would be rather fascist, wouldn't it?
You're the one who hates this country. Not me. I love it so much that I dedicated 12 years of my life to it in the military.
What have you done for it besides sit on your ass and bad mouth it? Not a damn thing, I'd bet. Think that makes it better? Nice try, think again.
You're a whiner. So get on that plane...or are you just a sackless wonder as we all expect that you are?
As far as you partial lists go, let me add one to YOUR "Love it or Leave it" list: The United States of America...don't believe it's true? ask around.
Don't like facts? Try fascism. The biggest most powerful terrorist state is the USA and it has been that way for more than half a century. Serve it dutifully and protect it with foaming mouth and unquestioning allegiance. You lose. Reason escapes you. Protect your power, possessions beyond a fair share, freedom to exploit and take advantage of others, is that patriotism? Tiny little loud mouth. If you could find recourse to not show your proclivity to be unreasonable, a name caller in the extreme, then, one name for you comes to mind and it cannot be dismissed as just another expletive declaration. Fascism is the sign of a society destroying itself. Show us some more of its twisted visage.
toBy
Toby, to answer your question: Yes, I question everything my government does. And if I don’t like the answers then I have my say in the voting booth. Historically, America has done more good for the global community that ANY other nation in history. Never before in history has a nation amassed such power, and used it so restrictively. Never before has a nation amassed such wealth and been as humanitarian. What has Australia ever done for the world? Not a damn thing.
Fred, I have a list for you. It’s not a “partial” list, rest assured it’s comprehensive…
What is the most powerful, wealthiest, prestigious, humanitarian, freedom loving, greatest nation on the face of this God’s green Earth? Yep you guessed it.
<Here's a partial list of the countries in which you could "get away" with it.
Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Britain, Germany, France, Poland, Italy, Belgium, South Africa, Republic of Ireland, Spain, Portugal. >
Let's take a closer look at Fred's partial list of nations that advocate free speech:
Sweden:
http://www.pul.nu/sid2eng.html
Denmark:
http://www.ms.dk/Kampagner/Old/grundlov/constitution/Denmark.htm
France:
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2000/11/20/202040.shtml
Poland:
http://members.core.com/~mikerose/speech.htm
Belgium:
http://www.fpp.co.uk/online/00/11/BelgiumBan.html
Britain/Ireland:
http://eurogay.co.uk/article/outcast.html
South Africa
http://www.capitalismmagazine.com/2001/march/ww_apartheid.htm
And of course, as we all know, you can't start a neo-nazi or aryan nation club in Germany.
So read up and learn about all the other wonderful nations out there.
Nice try Fred...got any more "partial lists" for us to laugh at?
Nothing makes me feel more patriotic than the sight of innocent victims of U.S. attacks. When I see a kid hobbling around Afghanistan because a cluster bomb blew his legs off, I know that the U.S. is a great country.
When I read about all the victims of Agent Orange and Operation Phoenix in Vietnam, I start crying for all those great U.S. servicemen who gave years of their lives so that millions of peasants in the Mekong Delta could get their heads blown off.
When I learn that Osma bin Laden was a CIA agent, I applaud the Agency's commitment to diversity in its hiring practices.
When I hear about all the poverty caused and aggravated by the U.S. through its lackey agencies, the World Bank and the IMF, I'm awed by the hard work put in by all those bankers and businessmen.
It's a great country, dammit, and I've got the body bags to prove it. Anybody who doesn't agree can just get on a plane and, assuming it's not hijacked by terrorists, fly off to Indonesia or East Timor or Guatamala or El Salvador or Angola or the West Bank or Afghanistan or Cambodia or Vietnam or Laos or Honduras or Chile or any of the other countries that once questioned our incredible commitment to freedom so we had to bomb them back into the Stone Age where they belong those unpatriotic Communist Islamic pervert atheist ungrateful bastards. I think I'm going to start crying again....
Ya'll have a nice day now, ya hear?
Yeah, I watched that opportunist spew in the other post where the video was the topic. I posted a nice little conspiracy theory of my own there...you should check it out.
http://www.indybay.org/news/2002/03/118760.php
Implies that you worked on the website personally, hence, through deductive reasoning the assumption can be made that it is yours.
<How do you believe yourself? I am very curious.>
In this world I am the ONLY one I believe. When you scream that I'm a fascist you think I'll believe you? My government has never called me a fascist. In fact, my government has never committed ANY crimes against ME personally. But certain fellow citizens have.
<I think your outlook is based on a world view that the beliefs of a majority are truth, those with the most strength determine reality. Am I mistaken? Please, enlighten me.>
Think what you like. It's a free country (assuming you live in the USA).
Aaron, thanks for taking time from your busy schedule to read my comments, learn about my opinions, and express the fact the you have determined that I am irrelevant. I'm honored!
Now here comes George the Second. Not elected by the majority of the people. Economy in a mess. He and Cheney know the ENRON stuff is going to hit the fan any day. Then the disaster in the senate with the defection and he's lost the majoritiy. A lot worse off then his dad was. Then he gets word from the CIA that something big and bad is going to happen. Don't really know where and what. What to do? George the Second was caught off guard, but he thought "this could be to my advantage. we could use a war right now to get the spotlight off the economy. It worked for Daddy". So the word goes out " Let it happen, Captain".
So a couple of dozen people die, tour pals the NRA and the tobacco industry kill more than that every day!
Now look at the better than expected results: unlimited power for "Cromwell the AG", prayer back in the schools, a blank check for the military! "Man," George the Second must be thinking "this is like Christmas and hitting the lottery all at once. Hello second term!"
See what happens when the medical marijuana is confiscated.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/releases/pr020321.asp?Version=p
We have come here to replicate all of you. Resistance is futile.
It's real easy to keep throwing insults back and forth. Doesn't really accomplish much though, does it? So instead of, why don't you tell us all what will make things better with America? How can we solve some of these problems that make you hate America soooo much? Be specific.
I'll be sure to read it when I get back from the Blackjack tables!
Cheers!
Our collective enemy is any person, organization or state that threatens the document that is the basis for our government or threatens the citizens that live under that document.
Obviously, outside states have threatened us in the past, Revolutionary War and World War II are great examples, but we should also realize that the most constant threats have been spawned from one of the principles that makes this country great . . . capitalism.
Obviously, I'm not saying capitalism is bad, it is the "ism" that has allowed America to survive. I believe that the Constitution cannot exist without capitalism or vice versa, but like ice cream, too much capitalism is not good for the Constitution.
The darkest days of America have corresponded to the rise in power of business, from the Civil War to the robber barons to the electric dynasties to oil companies to now. Today's threats come in the form of our leaders signing away the soveriegnity of the Constitution in Multinational Trade Agreements, in the form of huge amounts of money being pumped into our government by corporate interests, in the form of deregulation (I think we all can agree that the recent rescinding of the requirements to safety test children's medication is a horrible thing.)
The point is. . .left or right, liberal or conservative, we have common enemies. The enemy isn't our form of government, the enemies are corruption and terrorism.
I know a common comment from the right during the post-OJ trial riots was derogatorially mentioning why the rioters were burning their own neighborhoods. Well people, that's what we are doing here. We're burning our own neighborhood. We're fighting each other instead of our enemies.
We all want a strong Constitution, an honest and ethical government, and the freedom to verbally fight each other in forums like this.
I believe all three of those things are under attack, both externally in the form of terrorism and internally in the form of corruption. I also believe that neither the left nor the right is strong enough to fight alone. . .our best shot at saving our way of live is to forget our differences until we have defeated the enemies that threaten us all. . .then we can exercise our American rights of arguing with each other again.
Thanks for listening
Zef
Well our congress has not declared war so what is going on? How come the president and his staff keep referring to an on-going war against terrorism? Why does the media refer to this war every day? Could it be that the US is not at war but actually we have power factions seeking more power? If so then these non-governmental factions have taken over governmental institutions, the presidency as well as many other departments of the so-called government that use this word “war” every day. Maybe the exalted constitution has worked a bit as the congress has not declared war which allows us to quickly see where the corruption lies, in every person who embraces this war as legitimate. The congress itself has given virtual carte blanche to the president to use military force. This double speak on a war that is not is also evident in major news media. CNN was found to have CIA agents on its staff. Most of the major news media appears to be owned by one power generating company, General Electric. If the enemies are corruption and terrorism, then we are likely to tear ourselves apart as we discover the greatest corruption and the most murderous terrorists are in the White House and other public and private institutions. What about the causes of terrorism and corruption? The enemy is not terrorism or corruption, those are just symptoms. The real enemy is what allows wealth to concentrate in the hands of a few. Such ivory tower ignoramuses will continue to cause escalating terror and corruption in the name of fighting the same. If we are to put aside our rights until the enemy is defeated then we are defeated by a war with no end. KPFA, in Berkley California, appears to be the only news agency that has not entirely been subjugated by the powers that be. If you can’t get them at 94.1 FM in the San Francisco bay area, then try their online live broadcast at https://secure.transbay.net/kpfa/forms/0_aud.htm Sometimes Occam’s Razor, just doesn’t cut it.
No perfect countries out there thats for sure.....but the proof is in the pudding....few leaving & many coming....I guess they dont know how terrible it is here.
Agents of the govt have sold secrets to the Russians during the cold war too....that dont mean the govt was "in on it"
The biggest problem is failure to think....Im not very educated and I see alot of people drawing stupid conclusions. No wonder the propaganda machines are all over, used by everyone ......plenty of poor thinkers to exploit.
We will always live under imperfect govts.....better it be a US version.
You can always tell a fool...or at least someone not thinking too clearly at the time....cause they blame "the govt".....its all competition between various groups and individuals.....was out to get Monica Lewinsky??.....sorry bub.....only Bill was.
So if you dont like the govt you can vote them out....Bush would have had a hard time stealing an election if it wasnt so close anyway right?
Only one way to vote them out though isnt there?....and thats to convince people that the US is evil.....well, heck evil works for me if I dont have to live in fear of my leaders.....George Bush can kiss my ass and I will fuck his drunken daughter if I like her legs and ass.....go say that about an Arab leader overseas......when you come back and tell me how much fun it was......I will start considering the US evil.
Kill without joy. (a phrase from days overseas.....but also a good way to see who the real assholes are.....they cheer when they harm others like the clowns who beat Reg Denny in LA, or like the fools that applaud the carnage of 911......you dont see crowds in the USA applauding the collateral damage.....and people its a clue if you are unclear about who the jerks are.....but then again if you are unclear, I got a bullet with your name on it, just in case.
And when the govt wins....the people win!!!!!! They elect the govt.
Thats the way its supposed to be!....Who did you want to win?
When you slam "the govt" you slam the people....when you slam the people....you get away with it for awhile, cause Americans are a generous lot....but eventually....YOU GET SLAMMED!!
People who really have something worthwhile to say NAME NAMES......they dont blame the govt for why they stink.......jump in the shower but, the govt aint looking.
The corporations are in control here, not the government. They control the means of production, the means of communication, the food supply, the energy supply, the land, the money and the government itself.
The government is nothing but a front for the corporations. The corporations are a front for the three hundred or so families who rule the rest of us as surely as feudal lords. This is not democracy. This is plutocracy. The rich rule. To them, the rest of us are nothing but livestock.
It is so comforting to find other meek and thoughtful people (minus the loudmouths). I think some of you may benefit from the site that started me on this path of "enlightenment". I was searching at google.com for something completely different and unrelated when I came across this site and have spent days reading the information therein. The "Political and Historical" section would be particularly interesting to most of you, though it's all very informative and elegantly written:
http://home1.gte.net/res0k62m/home.htm
I would be curious if anyone knows of an article or site which documents a comparison between what is going on in America right now and what was going on in Nazi Germany in the decade prior to the second world war. As an American, I have studied Germany extensively, lived there, and worked there (German language was my major in college). The similarities in policy are striking between the Nazi government and the American (I'm sure this is obvious to some of you). I think it would be an interesting study and may undertake it myself, starting with the burning of the Reichstag building (to be able to kill communists deemed "terrorists", etc) and the destruction of the World Trade Center (to be able to kill "terrorists", etc).
This quote is a perfect close to this message:
"Why of course the people don't want war. Why should some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally the common people don't want war neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."
-- Herman Goering, Commander-in-Chief of the Luftwaffe, President of the Reichstag, Prime Minister of Prussia and, as Hitler's designated successor, the second man in the Third Reich
You may or may not want to join the discussion at my site, http://www.lowfashion.com/ , we would love to have the additional active minds on our chit-chat page!
Yours sincerely,
Nathan Beach
klep·toc·ra·cy (klp-tkr-s) n. pl. klep·toc·ra·cies A government characterized by rampant greed and corruption.
I'm doing my own thing/s on a daily basis but my efforts are being rebuffed, I actually got an email by a potential employer the other day that stated "even though we have recieved and reviewed your resume, we have determimed that you are an intelligent and talented man, but we cannot use you or offer you employment because we require 3 years training in sales and we did not see that on your resume, Good Luck in your job search endeavors.
"Discrimination clearly exists, but discrimination is against the law." - President George W.Enron Bush - Illegal 'Puppet' President
I'd just like to say that I love my country, but I also believe that you cannot take everything at face value.
Our govenrment system is not infallible, as it is run by human beings. It's not perfect. Yeah, maybe better than some, but not perfect.
It's up to us to question these things (yes, believe it or not, even those in power) and make things better.
So stop bickering and start arguing!!!
or read "20 Years of Censored News"
What you believe is up to you.
http://www.freespeech.org/
A complete FAG
I understand, as well, that our government is no longer a government of the people or a true democracy for that matter. It's quite possible that we are more like the republic of U.S.S.R than we realise.
I clearly see that our lives are dictated by corporations for their sole monetary benefit and their lust for power. Corporate domination has destroyed the environment, created a much LARGER schism between the poor and the rich and that CORPORATIONS have most undoubtedly given every american mental and physical health problems through advertising and over-consumption.
I note that the US news services typically change stories throughout different regions of the globe as I have seen myself! (leaving from L.A. with US News and World Report and USA Today in hand both with stories of rising oil prices due to opec and then arriving in sydney and seeing the same day issues of the exact same magazines stating that oil prices were rising in US because of embargo held by US leading oil provider Saudi Arabia) and not to mention East Timor.
I am aware that NBC Nightly News with Tom Brokaw has a segment named "The Fleecing of America" directly calling us SHEEP and that most Americans just watch and allow NBC to shepard us. It's what we like to call Mass Hypnosis. Brainwashing if you will.
I know people who cannot stand what is happening and take no action, I see these people who hate corporate america shopping at wal-mart and eating at McDonalds. We call this COGNATIVE DISSONANCE.
I understand that there are your billy-joe-bob-bubba men and women who insist that nothing is wrong and that everything is under control.
Well, EVERYTHING IS UNDER CONTROL!
I Know that Billy-Joe is either afraid that if we "liberals and free-thinkers" (as I refuse to be labeled by) actually took ACTION that it would stir up their comfy lives of banal resonance OR the Billy-Joes don't like to think that they're wrong. Which in my position is an irony knowint that all the billy-joes I've dealt with can't spell and don't read and have NO WAY to make an informed opinion.
I see that the leaders of the conservative party are pretty much the same. You've got your conservative intelligencia like powell who was brainwashed through the military industrial complex and pretty much has no thought of his OWN (borg ladies and gents),
You have the other intelligencia who HAVE POWER. They're NOT going to give up power!
You've got Conservative Entertainers. These are the people that take up 90% of the Right and that all f the Right wingers in our world actually understand. These are your O'riellys and your Limbaughs and your christian leaders. They do it on TV. They have no other reason to be heard except that you CAN hear them in your living room. O'reillys last stint about the corruption of american youth in that "inside edition" manner he does so well with all of that editing so that his opponents can't possibly say anything intelligent.... NOW THAT'S ENTERTAINMENT!
I understand that here in the heart of america, in wichita kansas there's so much opposition to knowledge and free thought from the right wingers that I find myself wondering how they can walk and talk sometimes. I see my peers wanting to be free from their slavery to the $$$ and also unwilling to say that there is anything wrong with $$$. Thy want to climb the corporate ladder, they want the house in the suburbs, they want the AMERICAN DREAM.
Wake UP!
The Pharoahs are calling the slaves back to build the pyramids.
It's the EGO. Ego has made a mess of things. How can a man kill another man? EGO.
How can a pharoah bulild a pyramid? EGO.
How can a CEO of a large Energy Trader in the US lie to his workers?
yup.
We'll never know the truth. We can only speculate anything. I can't even tell you if Maine actually exists, I've never been there.
I Just have one question.
So, what is the problem, here?
http://www.asile.org/citoyens/numero13/pentagone/erreurs_en.htm
Eric, you are a dickless fucking moron.
No country out there is "better" than us, and we are no better than anyone else. We are just as susceptible to corruption as anyone, and we have no "national mission" to fight for freedom. We are simply the most powerful nation in the world, AT THIS MOMENT, which will certainly change as it always does in history.
By the way, I get off my ass and do plenty for my country. Namely, I teach history so that less kids turn out to be assholes like you.
Is that what you teach your kids? Where do you teach, Berkeley? I just wanna know so I can be sure and not send my kids there. I do agree that the educational system in this country is screwed up. A bunch of lazy teachers that want a lot of vacation time mostly.
Sort of hypocritical to bad mouth the same government that probably (at least in part) pays your salary, huh teach? Is that the corruption you're referring to?
And where do you read that I imply no one should be allowed to dissent? Hate to tell ya but you're about as clueless of what I stand for as your post conveys brains in your head.
Like I said, teach...if you don't like it, then get the hell out. Doubtful anyone will shed a tear when your gone.
Our system of government won't work if we stop questioning or ignore questions raised by others. There are a lot of questions and coincidences surrounding 911. They should be investigated.
Keeping our informed confidence high is our patriotic duty. But it means staying informed-- knowing what our government is doing. If we don't do that, we're shirking our civic duty, we're not playing our role in democracy. If you don't question what the government is doing, you're taking the country for granted and you don't deserve this country.
-Randy
The true patriot supports the ideals of the constitution and the bill of rights, not the opinions of any particular elected official . (or not actually elected in this case, since W was appointed by the Supreme Court in an election where investigation of the irregularities and illegalities discovered would have called into question the democracy we think we have)
Or maybe a little founding fatherism will break into that closed mind eh? Benjamin Franklin: " those who would sacrifice essential liberties for a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" I would love to see that written on post cards and sent to the civiliberterrorist Ashcroft.
I disagree vehemently with the illegal war being waged by the thief in chief. I am a descendant of the original revolutionaries that stole this land from the native americans. If I have to go, you have to go first, cause I'm sure my people were here before yours were and my people *fought* for the constitution. (which - by the bye - was actually lifted nearly verbatum from the Iriquois confederation of tribes leaving out the equality of women)
After you, Eric, don't let the door hit you in the bum.
I mean, isn't this the same government that gave us Pearl Harbor, the Warren Report, Roswell, Viet Nam, Watergate, Three Mile Island, Iran-Contra, and a host of other gems?
Obviously, the Government NEVER lies to its people, right?
The reason we have freedom of speech today is that we have a strong tradition of exercising it and being vigilant with our rights and preventing the government from eroding our rights. If things like the ACLU didn't exist and we were apathetic about our rights, we would see them erode away ... much faster than they are currently with great laws like the PATRIOT ACT.
(And yes, those illegal immigrants arrested around sept. 11are STILL in jail, without being identified or being able to see a lawyer... all 623 of them... pretty much going against legal rights normally afforded to people and how we expect to be treated. But oh wait, they're illegal aliens so they're not people.)
Not even close. The reason is because your forefathers fought, died, and killed for your very right to discuss the issue. The reason is because we have developed a powerful military that is feared and has kept the Krushevs, Kadafis, Khomeinis, Husseins, Hitlers, and the rest from marching over here and shutting you up. The reason is because we've developed a system of government that (mostly) works and is looking out for the best interests of the people of the United States (whether you all choose to believe it or not). The reason is because there are more than 1 million highly trained and heavily armed American soldiers ready to give up their very lives for our way of life. The reason is that those soldiers are not alone. The reason is you should count the number of American flags flying in your neighborhood. The reason is that many of those illegal immigrants love this country more than many of you here on IndyMedia. The reason is because they know what it's like to suffer and they know how much worse it can be.
http://www.israelshamir.net/ufo.htm
UFO AND TERROR
By Israel Shamir
“My wife has been raped by a Martian”. It was a favourite and frequent headline in 1950s, when the power was not concentrated to a present extent, and journalists had to do with UFO stories. With years, veracity of the opinion-makers did not change, but their malice grew considerably. Millions of newspaper copies, billions of TV frames and zillions of words postulate Islamic Terror as the latest scourge of mankind. It is not strange, Your Excellencies, that your defensive reflexes took precedence over your common sense, and you try and justify, renounce or explain Islamic Terror – by the persecution of Palestinians in the Apartheid State of Israel, or by the US siege of Iraq and colonisation of Saudi Arabia. You gave some pretty good reasons, but, as a PR professional, I’ll tell you: one can find good reasons for anything.
In the fervour of explanations, you forgot to ask yourselves the first question of a scientist: does it exist? Is there such a phenomenon, Islamic Terror? Yes, there is a lot of spin, and the media takes it for granted. But a say-so would not suffice as a proof of existence. In 18th century, good people of Salem in New England carried out a crusade against witches. Whoever would doubt the very fact of the female alliance with Devil, would surely be marginalised or presented as a Satan’s stooge. For centuries, there was a spin about Jews who consume Christian children’s blood for Passover. Hundreds of books and articles were published on the subject; England still has a child saint supposedly martyred by bloodthirsty Jews.
But now we disregard this silly spin. It is a right time to do the same with the latest Witch Hunt, the newest Blood Libel, so-called Islamic Terror.
In my opinion, it exists in the same way and to the same extent as the Jewish Conspiracy and Yellow Peril. There is a scattering of few disjointed and unconnected guerrilla movements in the world, that of Basques (ETA) and South Lebanese (Hezbollah), Corsicans and Mindanao (South Philippines), Irish and Columbians, Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka, UNITA in Angola and HAMAS in Palestine. There is no way or reason to select a few of them on a spurious ground of some religious affiliation and ascribe them to Islamic Terror Network.
People of South Lebanon, South Philippines, Corsica, Basque country, or Palestine have their legitimate grievances, but their connection to their religion is just a question of colouring. In the same vein, the war of Iran and Iraq could be (but should not) be described as the war between Sunni and Shiite Islam, but we know that the religious factor was not an important one in the decisions of Saddam Hussein and the Iranian leaders.
Practically nowhere one can find an Islamic terror organisation per se, fighting for the establishment of an Islamic state. Before the collapse of Communism, the Palestinians preferred a left-wing ideology to fight their oppressors. Among Palestinian militant leaders, a place of honour was held by a Christian, George Habash. HAMAS of Palestine grew as the only movement expressly permitted by the Zionist Apartheid state, while non-religious FATAH was suppressed. Thus, the feelings of the oppressed Palestinians were channelled by the Jews into this quasi-religious movement.
Hezbollah fighters of Lebanon fought against Israeli and American occupation, not for the Islamic rule. They are similar to the Irish Republicans, not famous for their Islamic beliefs. Chechens continued their two-hundred year long war against Russian rule, building temporary alliances with America, Germany and Turkey. Their biggest alleged achievement, explosion of Moscow high-rise buildings, was actually performed by an Israeli citizen Mr Anatoly Chubais, it was disclosed last month by another Israeli citizen, Dr Boris Berezovsky.
Could we select the ‘Muslim terrorists’ by their methods? Surely not. IRA bombed London pubs well before Hamas discovered Tel Aviv café. The Tamil Tigers, non-Muslim militant organisation, trained by Israeli Mossad, is the world leader in suicide bombings. There is no case to presume existence of Islamic Terror at all. Until we come to 9/11, when President Bush proclaimed its existence and announced the World Wide Muslim Conspiracy of al Qaeeda.
The perpetrators of the 9/11 are still unknown to us. The instant recovery of a hijacker’s passport intact on the place of jet crush should be counted among the most spectacular miracles of all times, well ahead of Daniel’s trip into the fiery furnace. The old Babylonian furnace surely did not develop the temperature of burning jet fuel. Arab-language flying manuals in the trunk of a car, inaudible videotapes and other conveniently recovered exhibits make Moscow trials of 1937 a bright example of justice incorrupt. The prisoners of Afghani war have been kept away from prying eyes, in the limbo of Guantanamo, lest they disclose the greatest secret of all: their innocence.
On the other hand, there is an accumulating evidence of Israeli Connection. Warning messages on the Israeli network INIGO were sent to Israelis on Manhattan, in real time, when the planes left their airfields. In all airports utilised by hijackers, one Israeli company ICTS attended to security. Jewish financial companies made forward insurance stock deals that enriched them.
Israel utilized the 9/11 events to its full capacity: present massacre in the Palestinian cities is described as ‘the war on terror’. The Muslim neighbours of Israel were terrorised into passivity by the American rage. Destruction of Afghanistan raised the threshold of the world sensitivity to horror, and made possible the present invasion of Palestinian cities. Probably it is not enough for the verdict, but the same can be said about al-Qaeeda’s alleged involvement.
There is no Islamic terror, but there is an Israeli-American terror of Dar al-Islam. You have not sinned; but you were sinned against. Thus, when the US President and his media question you, “what do you do about the Islamic terror?’, I suggest, Your Excellencies, a good Jewish reply, ‘What terror?’
____________________________________________________________________________________
http://www.churchofeuthanasia.org/
THis conspiracy started before the last "ellections", the first attempts to destroy US democracy were done by Clinton's chasers (and they failed in spyte of all the help that they got from irresponsible Clinton himself). But they were not good enough so The Family had to play harder.
1. If you're so conservative, why do you spend so much time looking at an independent media source?
2. Whenever somebody approaches you with a valid argument to your ideas, you tell them to get on a plane to a country that the US has been known to oppress. Is this the only argument you can come up with? Now let's say somebody takes your advice and leaves the country. Would you then claim that she/he can't have an opinion regarding your views because he/she is no longer an American citizen?
3. You say that you know about the global economy. Do you really? Have you studied Economics or, more specifically, the effects of globalization and US imperialism on international labor market structures?
4. You cast the illusion of intelligence on this post. (Note: Every personality here is just an illusion. I could post something under somebody else's name, including yours, with none the wiser.) What is your IQ?
5. You argue that the Husseins, Khomeinis, and others would march over here to kill us all if given a chance. You also argue that our military is the only thing that has stopped them. I don't disagree with you, but I think that you may be a little myopic on that score. Have you forgotten who it was that put many of those people in power?
6. Have you considered the fact that the reason for our huge national debt lies solely with a bloated military budget?
7. Have you ever studied history? You claim to have been in the military for 12 years. Did you ever stop to think that you were kept blind to the rest of the world during that time? Did you consider the fact that your worldview might be tainted by the military's point of view?
Well, I'll leave you to chew on that. Your answers should not include expletives, insults, or anything resembling the phrase "if you don't like it, leave."
Does anybody have new information on the Congressional inquiry (or lack thereof)?
Because the kooky conspiracy theories entertain me. I also like a good debate.
>2. Whenever somebody approaches you with a valid argument to your ideas, you tell them to get on a plane to a country that the US has been known to oppress. Is this the only argument you can come up with? Now let's say somebody takes your advice and leaves the country. Would you then claim that she/he can't have an opinion regarding your views because he/she is no longer an American citizen?
What valid arguments? All I said is if you don't like it here, then it's a big world. Renounce your citizenship and leave. I didn't specify where you HAD to go. I said to pick a country of your choice.
Whether or not you leave, you still have the right to your opinion. But if all you have to opine about is how miserable you think this country is, then quit whining and do something about it. Make your situation better. Get on a plane.
>3. You say that you know about the global economy. Do you really? Have you studied Economics or, more specifically, the effects of globalization and US imperialism on international labor market structures?
Studied in college. But college means squat. Much more valid is real life experience. I've been to most of West Africa, several countries in Central and South America, China, and of course, most of Europe. I've seen what it's like first hand. Of all the places I've visited, I've not found any that I'd prefer to call home.
And I'm sooo fricken tired of those of you who blame the US for the crappy international markets. What a cop-out. The US has only been around for roughly 225 years. Most of these other places have been on the map for thousands. The problems stem from such things as: political corruption, greed, illiteracy, apathy, drugs, systems of government that do not work, etc. etc. etc. When you screw up, do you look for someone else to blame, or do you take responsibility for your mistakes? And every one of those nations would trade places with the American economy in a second. Have you ever seen the line outside of an American embassy for people trying to get VISAs? I have (on about 1000 occasions) and it is never a short line.
>4. You cast the illusion of intelligence on this post. (Note: Every personality here is just an illusion. I could post something under somebody else's name, including yours, with none the wiser.) What is your IQ?
I don't know what my IQ is. Never been tested. Not pertinent; This is not about me.
But yes, I agree about the illusions. For example, on another topic on one occasion, I posted the same perspective under two different names. Someone told me to go F*ck off on one name and then agreed with the other name and thanked me for my input.
>5. You argue that the Husseins, Khomeinis, and others would march over here to kill us all if given a chance. You also argue that our military is the only thing that has stopped them. I don't disagree with you, but I think that you may be a little myopic on that score. Have you forgotten who it was that put many of those people in power?
I think you should study history a bit more. The US did not directly put any of those tyrants in power. Maybe you can argue that US actions indirectly led to some of them aquiring power, but that's not the same. The people of their nations are responsible, bottom line. Fear, intimidation, ignorance, or apathy is no excuse. Displacing blame on the US does not solve the problem.
>6. Have you considered the fact that the reason for our huge national debt lies solely with a bloated military budget?
Yes. There's a price for freedom. It hasn't affected my standard of living. Has it affected yours?
Let me tell you how I feel about it. I'd give 50% of everything I have or ever would earn to support this country if it would insure the American way of life. For my childrens sake, and yours.
>7. Have you ever studied history? You claim to have been in the military for 12 years. Did you ever stop to think that you were kept blind to the rest of the world during that time? Did you consider the fact that your worldview might be tainted by the military's point of view?
Yes, I've studied history. Anyone who has knows it's mostly biased recounts.
When I was in the military, I certainly was not "kept blind". I had access to the events of the world just as you do. I served because I love this country enough to die for it. Worse than that, enough to kill for it. Noone kept me blind, that's just how I felt (and feel).
The military has nothing to do with my "tainted" perspective. I arrived to these conclusions completely on my own. I take full resposibility and hold no one else accountable.
>Well, I'll leave you to chew on that. Your answers should not include expletives, insults, or anything resembling the phrase "if you don't like it, leave."
Happy? Want my social security number, mother's maiden name, and birth place too? Although I'm flattered by the attention, it's not about me.
Now, to your comments:
"I also like a good debate."
This is exactly why I wrote anything. "This site sux" simply does not cut it.
"Renounce your citizenship and leave." and "But if all you have to opine about is how miserable you think this country is, then quit whining and do something about it. Make your situation better. Get on a plane."
This is typical rhetoric (rhetoric, by the way, simply means speech) from the political right-wing. The only way to change poor US foreign policy is to make some noise. Many people, including the writer of this very article, are out there doing something about it: protesting. The peace rallies and anti-terror demonstrations have been going on for years before Bush introduced the so-called "Axis of Evil." People have also been going overseas to see firsthand what US citizens have been shielded from by our media.
"And I'm sooo fricken tired of those of you who blame the US for the crappy international markets. What a cop-out."
Unfortunately, it's not a cop-out, it's a reality. For example, the US deliberately keeps South American nations poor to take advantage of low-cost fruit production. Ever heard of United Fruit? As for the drugs you mentioned... Certainly you must know of the CIA smuggling drugs. Apathy? When you have a death-squad instructed to kill you and the rest of your village if you rise up against the government, the only choice is to go along with the regime.
"I think you should study history a bit more. The US did not directly put any of those tyrants in power. Maybe you can argue that US actions indirectly led to some of them aquiring power, but that's not the same. The people of their nations are responsible, bottom line. Fear, intimidation, ignorance, or apathy is no excuse. Displacing blame on the US does not solve the problem. "
I think you should study history a bit more. The US has always played a large role in foreign politics. The common policy has been to put a tyrant in power that could then use US-supplied weapons to intimidate the populace and keep them under control. As for fear not being an excuse... Tell me, if some death-squad were to keep a gun trained on your child, another on your wife, would you go try to knock him out at the expense of those you love?
"Yes. There's a price for freedom. [The national debt] hasn't affected my standard of living. Has it affected yours?
Well, if Bush keep it skyrocketing, the dollar will be worth about as much as the rouble. That would have a large effect on everybody's standard of living.
"Happy? Want my social security number, mother's maiden name, and birth place too? Although I'm flattered by the attention, it's not about me."
well, I really didn't, but somebody that decides to destroy you may even have the grace to thank you for the information. And in a way, in some small respect, the argument is about you... Rather, it's about other apathetic people like you. These are the people that must be convinced that something is wrong before any changes can be made. You're just the only person handy who will argue with me.
Oh, to the dick that posted "bedtime for the babe...." That was a wonderful insight, thank you for posting something so informative... Also, thank you for representing the American part of the world's dumbass population. Without your unwanted, worthless input, dumbasses just wouldn't get the attention they deserve.
>Eric, with all the people that don't respect your opinion on this site, I hope for your sake that that was a fake SSN.
It was. Thanks for your concern.
>I wouldn't destroy your life, but somebody else might.
Oh you're so sweet! But alas, yes I agree. There could be evildoers afoot. Perhaps I should quake in my boots?
>Prudence is a valuable trait to have, don't you agree?
Yes. Thanks for asking my opinion! I feel so much better now!
>This is exactly why I wrote anything. "This site sux" simply does not cut it.
No? Why not?
>This is typical rhetoric (rhetoric, by the way, simply means speech) from the political right-wing.
Thank-you Merriam Webster. So you're a left wing liberal. What a surprise there.
>The only way to change poor US foreign policy is to make some noise. Many people, including the writer of this very article, are out there doing something about it: protesting.
Protesting the fight against terrorism makes no sense. Shall we all stand by and do nothing when terrorists kill thousands because we fear looking like terrorists?
>The peace rallies and anti-terror demonstrations have been going on for years before Bush introduced the so-called "Axis of Evil."
There has never been, nor will there ever be, World Peace. Get in touch with reality. This is not Shangri-la. It's not Utopia. It's Planet Earth. And we are humans with survival instinct as priority 1. It's an ideal virtue to be kissy-kissy to everyone in the world, but you may as well be pissing into a fan.
>People have also been going overseas to see firsthand what US citizens have been shielded from by our media.
Yes, they have. You know what most of them say? "Thank you CNN!" Wanna know why? Because Americans don't care. Sorry to be so brash, but in general, they want to be shielded. Overseas problems are not our problems. Jews-Palestinians -> not our battle. We have our own day-to-day lives to live. Let these countries sort out their own problems.
But when these Foreign nationals pitch a tantrum and say "Look Daddy! Look at me! I'm a big boy and I can kick you in the rump now! See!" like they did on 9-11, we pay attention. We get out the belt and head for the woodshed. Like my old man used to say, "Time for a good old fashioned ass-whoopin. An attitude adjustment, so to speak. This is how most of America was raised and how we think. Spare the rod and spoil the child.
Unfortunately, it's not a cop-out, it's a reality.
I disagree. You have a right to your opinion, but if you blame the US for the troubles of the world, who was to blame 300 years ago?
For example, the US deliberately keeps South American nations poor to take advantage of low-cost fruit production. Ever heard of United Fruit?
No, fruit production is not big on my list of concerns. But I suspect it's just more hogwash. South American nations are poor mostly because of greedy governments. I just came back from Ecuador in December, it's a good case in point. Why don't you research the recent situation there and find out how the gov't siezed peoples bank accounts to keep itself from going bankrupt.
>As for the drugs you mentioned... Certainly you must know of the CIA smuggling drugs.
Really? why don't you tell us about it? Who in the CIA? Name names. Get specific. When, where, who and why?
Oh, and in regards to South America, another reason their poor, drugs are primary cash crop. Drug Lords call the shots. So if the gov't isn't brived or in the pocket of the drug lords, they're in fear.
>Apathy? When you have a death-squad instructed to kill you and the rest of your village if you rise up against the government, the only choice is to go along with the regime.
Cop-out. Ever hear of Patrick Henry? Now what did he say? Hmmmm. What was that famous one liner?
So why doesn't the gov't turn on us in the USA? Just outright declare martial law and tell us what we WILL do? Because that would last about 5 minutes before we send all the politicians to hell.
It's the fault of the people of those nations that their dictators control them. A dictator can not kill everyone, for then there'd be noone left to rule.
>I think you should study history a bit more. The US has always played a large role in foreign politics.
I agree. It's in the best interests of the American people.
>The common policy has been to put a tyrant in power that could then use US-supplied weapons to intimidate the populace and keep them under control.
Your opinion. Doesn't refute me. Where in history, has the USA directly put any tyrant in power?
>As for fear not being an excuse... Tell me, if some death-squad were to keep a gun trained on your child, another on your wife, would you go try to knock him out at the expense of those you love?
I would fight to the death. I value freedom more than life. How extreme am I? I'd die for your freedom. As much as it hurts to say it, I'd sacrifice the lives of my children and everyone I loved for the greater good that is freedom. So you see, fear is not an excuse.
>Well, if Bush keep it skyrocketing, the dollar will be worth about as much as the rouble. That would have a large effect on everybody's standard of living.
Let me know when we're there. In the mean time, I'm gonna buy an SUV.
Your opinion and no justification for it.
>well, I really didn't,
I just figured you did since the whole thing is like "What's you IQ? Did you study history? What color underwear do you have on?"
>but somebody that decides to destroy you may even have the grace to thank you for the information.
I shiver in my boots again.
>And in a way, in some small respect, the argument is about you... Rather, it's about other apathetic people like you.
Now, if I were apathetic would I even be here, in this forum? Use that brain God gave you.
>These are the people that must be convinced that something is wrong before any changes can be made. You're just the only person handy who will argue with me.
Knock yourself out. YOU CAN DO IT!! YOU CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE! YOU CAN CHANGE THE WORLD!
I need another cup of coffee.
by peace rebel boy • Tuesday April 23, 2002 at 01:23 PM
Echoing Rep. Cynthia McKinney of Georgia, and investigators like Mike Ruppert of copvcia.com, Michael Moore spoke in Eugene, Oregon, on Sunday, April 21, about the need for an investigation into the events of 9.11.
Moore is currently on tour promoting his book, "Stupid White Men," which has spent 4 weeks in the #1 spot on the New York Times bestseller list for non-fiction. He is also known for his movie, "Roger and Me", about General Motors and its effect on Flint, Michigan, and his television show, "TV Nation". During 2000, Moore campaigned for Ralph Nader. He has been an ardent critic of the Bush administration and its policies.
He spoke about many topics, but spent a good chunk of time talking about 9.11, and wondering why people aren't demanding an investigation. That Moore has joined those asking questions about 9.11 is helping to bring this topic out of the fringe and into the mainstream. Critics of 9.11 investigation should take notice.
The following are excerpts from portland indymedia coverage of his April 21st speech in Eugene. The complete portland indymedia coverage can be found here: http://portland.indymedia.org:8081/front.php3?article_id=9571&group=webcast
"This isn't a war on terrorists. This is a war on us."
"Why are our leaders and the media afraid to ask questions?" Moore demanded. "I have some questions. I'm an American. Someone I know died that day." Diving right in, Moore asked: "First, what are the financial connections between the bin Laden and Bush families?" According to the New York Times and the New Yorker, cited Moore, the bin Laden family has been "funding" the Bushes since 1979. In that year, Arbusto, George W.'s first company, an oil business in Texas, started with the help of bin Laden money.
At this point, the room we were in got deathly silent. You could feel the tension rise all around. About a half dozen people got up and left. It felt like the whole audience was on the edge of their seats.
In 1993, Moore went on, Bush Sr. started the Carlisle investment group, which has since become the 11th largest defense contractor in the nation. It buys failing defense firms, revives them, and sells them at a profit. Who was one of the first investors in Carlisle, right up until September 11, 2001? The bin Laden family. The New York times mentioned this in three articles post-9.11. Imitating those who question the relevance of these facts, Moore whined, "You can't blame the brothers and fathers for Osama." But you can, Moore said. "They haven't all quite divested themselves from him. Several family members continued to visit him in Afghanistan, as recently as June", 2001. "Isn't this odd?" Moore said. "A financial relationship that goes back over two decades?"
For perspective, Moore speculated on what would have happened if a similar relationship had been discovered after the destruction of the Murrah Building in Oklahoma City, in 1995, and it had turned out that the McVeighs had been funding Clinton since the 70's. "Would anyone have asked to investigate or appoint a special counsel? Wouldn't the press have asked even one question?"
"In the week after September 11, two dozen bin Ladens were allowed to fly out of the country" on private chartered Saudi jets. "'We're concerned about their safety,' they said." This makes no sense, in Moore's opinion. "In a murder investigation, you ask the family questions, 'Where is he?' 'When was the last time you saw him?' 'Could you help us if you see him again?'" Describing 9.11 as the "largest mass murder in the history of the country", Moore asked why "24 bin Ladens were whisked out and nobody asks a question. Isn't this a little bizarre?"
Referring to the nationalities of the alleged hijackers, Moore said, "Fifteen out of Nineteen were from Saudi Arabia, not Afghanistan. Did we miss? What's that all about?"
"But Afghanistan was harboring El Quaida," Moore said, again imitating a skeptic. But, he answered, "Since when does the government go after the landlord on our behalf?" Moore speculated that we didn't hit Saudi Arabia because we "can't bomb business partners of daddy [Bush]".
Citing the Washington Post, Moore reminded the audience that Osama bin Laden was on dialysis at this time. However, "Bush wanted a mastermind, a villain, someone scary, a reason to pass the PATRIOT Act." But the story disappeared quickly because Osama bin Laden is "not so scary hooked up to dialysis, is he? Did he have a kidney machine in every fifth cave in Afghanistan? We're supposed to believe that he's controlling all this from caves? I can't even get cell reception from Salem to Eugene! They think we're stupid."
"This isn't a war on terror," Moore stated. "This is a war on us, to shred the Constitution and take away our liberties. They think they're going to get away with it."
Bringing to light yet more fishy information, Moore cited the BBC, which reported that members of the Taliban came to Texas in 1997 to meet with George W.'s oil company buddies, while George W. was governor there. Who were these companies? "Unocal, which wanted a pipeline across Afghanistan," "Halliburton, whose president was Dick Cheney," and "Enron, which did the feasibility study" for the pipeline, and which wanted another pipeline to supply natural gas to a plant it had built in India.
Later, during the question and answer session, one questioner mentioned Mike Ruppert's recent appearance in Eugene, cited evidence from his website, copvcia.com, and asked Moore's opinion of him. "I've read his website. He's asking some good and scary questions. Much scarier than mine. We should all be asking these questions." Moore pointed out that the put options placed on United and American Airlines stock right before 9.11 were suspicious.
Slackers Unite! Rise up and do something!
Excerpt from another portland indymedia article covering Moore's lecture:
I was pleased to hear him tell, what felt to me like a mostly rapacious audience, that we need to be questioning why 9.11 happened. He said that he has a few potent questions to ask the administration: what about the oil pipeline in the Caspian Sea, Enron, the Bin laden family financial support of the Bush’s, the jet escort of Bin laden family members out of the country a few days post 9.11, etc, etc. With these hard-hitting questions, that many people do not want to hear, do not want to think about (as per evidenced with those who think that the other Mike (Ruppert) is a conspiracy theorist) came some uneasy energy in the room with a few people quietly getting out of their seats and heading for the nearest exit. Yup, lots of people don’t want to hear it. I think that these people came for an afternoon of entertainment, and were disappointed when Moore started speaking of such things.
We need more Mikes, more individuals who are willing to step up to the plate and ask questions, questions that challenge the current outmoded myth that the media has been spoon feeding us re 9.11. A lot of people don’t want to hear it, don’t want to talk about it. I myself was told to quit dredging up history, and to let those poor victims of 9.11 rest in peace when I first started questioning the events surrounding 9.11. This is what I am attempting to do, to let all of those who die in the name of greed, to one day, rest in peace. The only way to do this is to know our history so that we do not repeat it but instead learn from it, but first we must know what really happened and why it happened. I am not content to "let sleeping dogs lie" or to swallow the media myth. None of us should be.
See also portland indymedia's interviews with Mike Ruppert in Portland and Eugene, April 13-14, 2002, at: http://portland.indymedia.org:8081/front.php3?article_id=9571&group=webcast
Realize that information on this forum is not to be trusted because one can put any name on a post. In some instances we have a personage who labeled himself, Eric, giving false statistics about himself which he acknowledges in a latter post. A confirmed misrepresentation of the facts is not conducive to trusting the content of a persons post. Did he really travel to Ecuador in December? Think about it, if he is an intelligence operative, a plant to instill apathy, mistrust of the facts, etc. then wouldn't you expect that his job might just involve travel to far and distant places? Suffice it to say, unless you can immediately verify what is said here, don't bother believing.
Well, Eric, it's apparent to me that you really don't know much about recent events. There are other references for worldwide events than this website. You are the one that needs to get in touch with reality before you open your mouth.
You said that Americans don't care about what happens overseas, and that world events have no bearing on our lives. Unless we live on another planet (which, for the record, we do not) Earth's problems are ours. You think the Jew-Palestinian problem isn't ours? That's fine, just tell our government to stop selling arms to Israel.
September 11 should have served as a warning to America. It was a tragic statement of how ignorant Americans are. To prevent future attacks, Americans must know more about the world around them. To remain ignorant of world affairs is a horrible problem. This ignorance of world affairs is what feeds most of your statements.
You don't think you're ignorant? You're wrong about that. Everybody that read your last entry knows it. I quote: "No, fruit production is not big on my list of concerns. But I suspect it's just more hogwash." Do yourself a favor and look up United Fruit. Be careful, though, you might actually learn something.
You haven't heard of drug-smuggling or government-toppling? Do you live in a cave? When do you want me to start with a history lesson... World War 2? I'll tell you what, rather than go to all that work, you should do some reading to enlighten yourself, such as:
"What Uncle Sam REALLY Wants" by Noam Chomsky
"Contemporary 20th Century History" by Howard Zinn
"The CIA's Greatest Hits" by Mark Zepezaur. Also read Michael Moore's work.
Useful websites are http://www.projectcensored.org, http://www.counterpunch.org, http://www.sf.indymedia.org, and http://www.hrw.org.
I think you should also do some research in regards to global economics. Sanctions, embargoes, and minimalistic wages for grossly inhumane working conditions should all come up. And before you argue that foreigners should only receive pennies a day because that's all they're used to receiving, take a look at profit margins, relative prices, and living and working conditions.
Also look up inflation and the national debt. That is not just an unjustified opinion. What do you think happened to the USSR? I'll tell you what happened... In a nutshell, they spent more than they had on the military during the cold war, and that debt caught up to them. The same thing will happen to us if the debt is not paid off. To think otherwise is simply ignorance.
Your next comments are just pathetic. "It's the fault of the people of those nations that their dictators control them. A dictator can not kill everyone, for then there'd be noone left to rule." Well, Eric, that's great in theory, but a population is made up of individuals, and an individual is expendable. The death squads wouldn't think twice about killing individuals, and the people know this. In making statements like this, you contradict a previous statement of yours, as well. "And we are humans with survival instinct as priority 1." You said it.
Then, of course, was your willingness to watch your children die. That's despicable. Even a halfway decent father wouldn't sacrifice his children.
"So why doesn't the gov't turn on us in the USA?" Ever hear of the Patriot Act? The Anti-Terror bill? Attorney General John Ashcroft? They've tried and have just barely failed. And not many people know about how close we came to being a police state, due to the insufficient media coverage.
So, Eric, it's time to "use that brain God gave you" and research before you write anything else. Until you know what you're talking about, it wouldn't be prudent to try to make other contributors to this page look stupid. (Just as a reminder, you agreed that prudence is a valuable trait to have.) If you continue attacking other people, you'll just be viewed as a small-minded, ignorant jerk.
Has anyone heard of the concept of jamming? Interference? Distraction? The more time people spend trying to refute the obviously idiotic and inflammitory statements of these individuals, the less time we actually discuss the relevant topic! Like chaff dropped from planes to confuse enemy radar. Ignore him and his posts, discuss the relevant issue. Anonymity is his ally. It is public knowledge that organisations like the FBI and CIA keep track of websites like these. In fact COINTELPRO specifically mandates jamming of this sort. Who do you think you're talking to? Eric, if you're not an agent, then my apologies for the inference, but unless you actually want to discuss and REFUTE what is being said, be quiet and listen. Maybe you'll actually learn something.
2001 : over $2.3 billion US dollars to Isreal...$1.92 billion earmarked for the military.
notice the increase in the military earmarks after 9-11
2002 : over $2.82 billion US dollars to Isreal...$1.98 billion earmarked for the military.
2003 : over $2.76 billion US dollars to Isreal...$2.04 billion earmarked for the military.
I got these numbers from the Federal Budget which is available for download at: http://www.access.gpo.gov/su_docs/multidb.html
Now, in the conditions of this money to Israel...they actually say, and i directly quote the Budget here, as above:
"None of the funds made available under this heading shall be available to finance the procurement of defense articles, defense services, or design and construction services that are not sold by the Unites States Government under the Arms Export Act unless the foreign country proposing to make such procurements has first signed an agreement with the United States Government specifying the conditions under which such procurements may be financed with such funds."
it goes on and on...and it even point to specific countries that are NOT to see any of this money for any reason that included in 1999, Sudan, Liberia, and Guatemala.
My hope is that people will use this unique time in history to confront the government once and for all. All of you who say Bullshit are sleeping. you are slaves to the corporate state, and i feel for you. it has taken me over a dcade to break out of corporate slavehood. If you don't agree, and don't want people to speak against the government,(on YOUR behalf, by the way) then why don't you do what Jack and Ronald McDonald, the American Auto Industry, and the entire Bush Administration keeps telling everyone..."Put a Smile on, and keep on rolling", then you won't have to worry about it, until the tanks start rolling down the street in your neighborhood.
i love you all, and hope you will look into the TRUTH, and work with us to make the Government and corporations own up.
peace
"Look where we worship"
- Frank Zappa
P.S. "watch out where the huskies go"
The sheer fact that you cant get past the idea that your leaders are the unwitting accomplices of the game by being the pawns themselves in a game that is only about money keeps you from seeing the forest for the trees. You are totally helpless in this even if you could realize it so what left is there to do but to masturbate like this display of great yet common minds coming together for the good and heartfelt compassion you feel for mankind.
If you want an enemy, look no further then the Federal Reserve and her sister banks that control the world economy and there you will find your conspiracy, the power, and the elite that are pulling the strings that make the puppets dance for you so you can have your debates about these figures like the president or osamma bin whoever it is this time. Globalization yadda yadda I could go on. Truth is it will happen whether we like it or not, because the 80% of you that prefer the COMFORT of ignorance to the pain and burden of REALITY will choose to do nothing about it while it happens. Don’t believe me? Look at yourself now. What have you done. Hell man, what CAN you do. All this worry over the finer points of the war and who did what and why they did this or that is the very mind set that allows your leaders to do it. You already know who killed JFK and you already know the Government and the world ruling elite are behind the attacks of 9-11. But since you are powerless to do a thing about it, this is all you can to. Watch. Wonder. Postulate. Bitch. And if you want to know the truth as to WHY they do it…I will make it as simple as looking at history. In 1961 there was a study done in a (then) secret think tank by the top minds of this country in all the major disciplines of thought on how the American Public would react to a long term peace time. It was called the “Iron Mountain Report” and one of the participants, who was not so much as disturbed by the report itself but that it was to be kept classified despite the promises made that this was to be a public report decided to leak it to the public via the press and this is the only reason you and I can read it today.
It fully realizes the part war has played in every civilization devised by man and goes on to state:
“We must first Reply, as strongly as we can, that the war system cannot responsibly be allowed to disappear until 1.) we know exactly what forms of social control we plan to put in its place and 2.) we are certain, beyond reasonable doubt, that these substitute institutions will serve their purpose.
The “Iron Mountain Boys” listed these possible substitutes for the “function of war”.
- a comprehensive social welfare system.
- A giant open-ended space research program aimed at unreachable targets.
- A permanent, ritualized, ultra-elaborate disarmament inspection system.
- An omnipresent, virtually omnipotent international police force
- An established and recognized extraterrestrial menace
- Massive global environmental pollution
- Fictitious alternate enemies
- Programs generally derived from the Peace Corps model
- A modern, sophisticated form of slavery
- new religions and other mythologies
- socially oriented blood games
- a comprehensive program of applied eugenics
this report has been embraced and acted out in every way as every substitute has been implemented but for slavery, and yet we can, if we look hard enough, even see some similarities to it in low wages and its effects on the life style of the poverty stricken American and prison work forces. Yet the “function of war” is still being used. Why? Money!
It isn’t about crimes against humanity, national security, world sovereignty, patriotism, protecting the weak, stopping communism, civil rights, testing new weapons of mass destruction, or even about you or me, them or they. It is all about money. The rest is semantics. The fodder they use to bury the real fact that it is really only about the money.
If you really wanna make a difference, buy the next homeless person you see lunch and have a real conversation with someone about something important. Reality.
Enjoy your fodder.
- just another sheep
Jim
But before the dis-informants attack:
Yes I am aware of the alleged inaccuracy of the “Iron Mountain Report” and I am aware of the signed confession of Leonard C. Lewin in the 1972. But I also have done my homework. Have you. The validity of the document as being a “government document” was and is still being argued even today. By people like you.
I am also aware of the plea of guilty by Timothy McVeigh on August 15th 1995 for the bombing of a Federal Building in OK. The “conspiracy theorists” still argue today over government involvement. They argue with people like you.
I am also aware of the expert marksmanship employed by Lee Harvey Oswald from the 6th floor of the book depository on November 22, 1963 and the obvious possession of the “magic bullet” he used in his third round finally hitting his mark. Yet still today people argue over Government Mafia involvement. People like you.
Attack me all you like. I need no convincing. If I want to know something I go out there and sift through all the fodder and find the truth. Sometimes it is there. Sometimes it is unclear. The attacks on 9-11 to me are clear. It was an effort made at high level to justify legislation and wartime activity to perpetuate the war machine/money machine and bring us another step closer to globalization under the rule of the New World Order. As well as lining the pockets of the players involved as well as those who initiated the effort itself.
To those who choose denial out of patriotism or just your own form of arrogance I only have one question for you. Describe the feeling. I have always wanted to know how it feels to have my head shoved in sand but I am just too ashamed to try it.
Jim
The rise of the Euro needed a sharp decline of the Dollar. They still don't get it? A world government is already coming to be in the European Union.
If Bush and his fellow spin-doctors really think America will "lead" this new world government, they should take a closer look at ground zero. New York has been devastated. Is that a sign of US control over the New World Order? Don't be surprised if the World Trade Center is rebuilt in Brussels or Munich.
However, I am very suspicious of 9/11. Usually in these things there is a nugget of doubt at the core, which can't be satisfied. In JFK, it was the inhuman ability LHO would have needed to do that alone.
For me, in 9/11, it is the failure of Al-Quida, or any one else, to own up to this. Look at terrorist acts in Israel, or whatever; some groop of loons immediately takes responsibility, because they love that stuff. Here we are, 8 months later, and no one has stepped forward and accepted the instant fame that awaits them.
Other questions that haunt me are "how did they find the car in the parking lot so fast?" and "what the hell were they after in that Boston Hotel, and what did they find (destroy)?
I thought for sure, that after JFK, America would never be so gullible again. I guess it was me who was gullible.
Both were assisinated
http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/051602_liewontstand.html
MIKE RUPPERT'S APPEARANCE ON FOX NEWS CANCELLED AT LAST MINUTE
May 18, 2001, 3:30 PM – I have just been advised by FOX News Producer Jack De Marco that my scheduled live appearance on FOX News with Geraldo Rivera has been cancelled. The reason given was that the New York Times is just now breaking news about newly intercepted Al Q’aeda communications which indicate that another major attack is imminent.
Wag the dog?
This cannot be hidden for long. The fact that Russian President Vladimir Putin and Russian intelligence warned the Bush Administration last summer that 25 suicide hijackers were going to hijack commercial aircraft and attack major U.S. targets gives the complete lie to statements by Ari Fleischer, Condoleezza Rice and the President himself. Please do everything you can to get this information into the mainstream news and in a place where the administration is forced to respond to it.
Also, the firewall on our main website (fromthewilderness.com) was compromised today...coincidence?
This is a time of great danger for all of us. This administration is backed into corners wherever it turns and – given what it has already permitted – we can have no doubts that it will willingly and easily let more Americans be killed to remain in power.
Mike Ruppert
Video of Bush picking his nose
More Bush Fun...
Firstly, I was specifically saying that the person that posted under the name JoJo Gun above was a fraud stealing his name from JoJo Gunn (with 2 n's). It is dishonorable to forge anothers name onto your work, don't you agree?
But since you asked what is dishonorable about asking questions about 9-11, I'll speak on that. There is nothing dishonorable about it unless it's done in an accusatory fashion. That is Ruppert and he is an opportunist. Yes, there are lives in the balance. American lives. Americans don't go around starting wars. We just finish them. America was attacked. Thousands died. Now we are pissed and there's hell to pay. If you mess with a bee's nest, expect to get stung.
You would make a great politician Eric! (if you already aren't one)
Rock on Fascism!
Baa Baa Jim
Tell me what you'd have America do after being attacked? After thousands of innocent Americans were slaughtered like the sheep you accuse us of being? Tell us, should we blame our President? Our government? Should we revolt and storm Washington? Slaughter our Congressmen, Senators, throw out the Constitution and start over?
Tell us...what to do. Shall we do nothing? Petition our government for an investigation because we don't believe it was who they say it was that attacked us? Wait until every man woman in America is whole-heartedly convinced that we all know exactly who was responsible before we take any forcible action?
Tell us. Enlighten me oh great anti-facist?
What innocent bystanders? The evidence against Al Quada and the Taliban are compelling.
http://www.september11news.com/OsamaEvidence.htm
What evidence do you offer that they're innocent? Other than just a bunch of speculative questions comprised of conjecture and hearsay? I haven't heard one stitch.
As far as who created the Taliban and AL Queda network would hold some interesting if not condemning facts, it is not an issue if they are indeed the perpetrators. America moves into many countries of a third world nature and places who they desire in control, as well as networks for opposition to keep them in check. That is big business as well as politics. Some on a positive note…others on a negative one. The US also has a habit of betraying third world leaders as a means to an end in big business also. Yet we are talking about something much harder to believe…attacks on American soil being perpetuated by those at the helm. Or in the very least being done under the awareness of those at the helm. This is the idea that can be too difficult to accept.
All are elements of conspiracy. That is why these articles and pages on the internet are here. Thousands of them.
This one you yourself read I might add, so initially there must have been some interest on your part...or a time when you entertained the idea of conspiracy in general or we would never have seen your posts here. Unless you troll boards just to spread dissent which is by no means an outrageous idea having read your previous posts. I am not trying to offend but being the happy American you are, in favor of what is happening around you, I speculate your true intentions here. But I digress and again apologize for any offence if it is taken that way.
I can only speculate on what you really believe. I do know this though...
If you want a people to do something that you know they would not agree to you have two ways of doing it.
Do it in slow steps...so that it happens in a few generations or more making it look evolutionary in nature and not by design.
Use the Problem-Solution technique. Create a problem and when the people demand answers, give them one that gets everyone waving the flag of patriotism. They then will demand something be done about it. Those in power then offer a solution that corrects the problem and at the same time allows them to get the public to either do or accept an idea they would not have done or accepted previous to the problem that in reality they created or allowed to happen. Sneaky huh?
Now try and convince me that with the resources in the hands of those in power that they cannot bury a reality and then publicly reproduce a different reality there by keeping the true one hidden. It has been proven that this very technique has been done many times in past history by many different Governing bodies. Knowledge is indeed power.
A prime example is WWII when FDR had prior awareness to the imminent attack on Pearl Harbor. Why did he allow it? He had to…it was a brilliant political move, but murder none the less. The public was against getting involved in the war and would not have supported the move to enter the war. We needed to be in that war. Hitler was taking over Europe. Having seen Aushwitze and the atrocities there, one finds it hard to disagree that Hitler needed to be stopped. Churchill had been begging for America to enter the war for years, but a stubborn comfortable America was reluctant because we had so much to lose and not much to gain. The average American was against it, yet also uneducated as to why we needed to be in that war and what would happen if we didn’t get involved. By letting Pearl Harbor get bombed for 2 hours by Japan FDR got an entire nation behind the idea that we needed to go kick some ass. Those Japanese stirred the hornets nest and they needed to get stung right? It worked great, and to be honest it may be a dirty way of doing business but sometimes you have to get dirty when you are trying to convince a bunch of know it all Americans that they are wrong. Had FDR scrambled Pearl Harbor they would not have been vulnerable and the Japanese would not have attacked, in fact their intelligence was constantly monitoring the harbor to make sure they would have the element of surprise. Knowing this FDR saw this as a costly yet necessary move. He allowed it to become a problem in which the solution was demanded by a bunch of now flag waving patriots that war was the solution. I don’t support FDR in his decisions but understand them as a two fold problem. A uninformed public and a uneducated public. The fault would best be placed on both the government for not informing the public and then also on the public for not caring enough to become educated. No one stands alone in the spotlight of blame yet thousands of innocent lives were lost in the educational process.
Now the problem today is that those in power have been creating problems to bring about solutions they would like yet we the still ignorant public would initially rebel against. Korea, Vietnam, The Gulf War all gained nothing but money for those pulling the strings.
It has also become more and more noticed that we are increasingly kept stupid to what is really happening around the world so that we don’t know the true nature of the acts of our leaders or how we look to the rest of the world. We were once thought of as a great nation by our peers on this planet yet are now losing that mantle of honor, now being depicted as a country that keeps our eyes closed to a corrupt government and purposefully turn our heads the other way in denial. I you know what, I think they are right. In my opinion homeland security is the worst, because it is “The Gestapo” in disguise of “stopping the terrorists”. Can you honestly tell me you would have been pro-homeland security if none of this 9-11 business ever happened or do you trust the Pentagon that much? I don’t know about you but I feel that if this bill entered the two houses without a sinister plot to hurt America, then the letters to congressmen would have flooded DC. I also cannot help to notice the Anthrax laces letters occurring around the same time all this was going on. Indeed we DO need to be kept safe and are in great need of a homeland security regardless of the fact that the strain of Anthrax was the very same the military controls. But that could be mere coincidence or perpetrated by someone with connections. To be honest I don’t know. None of us do. Thus all the discussion, skepticism, and talks of conspiracy. But mostly fear.
Your argument is based on the idea that our leaders wouldn’t do this at all. That they are too kind, which is probably true but then I remember Watergate and realize that Nixon just got caught is all, had he never been caught it would have most likely been business as usual. Congress for the most part is kept in the dark as to the true nature of the realities confronting the USA in these days. Or they simply understand that it is business as usual and know better then to rock the boat.
Yet it is not too difficult a task to pull off by a shadow government, one that is in existence and a great deal of national security keeps the pubic in the dark about it. Most of the arguments against your views contain certain allegations that are not unfounded but difficult to prove. They in turn back up their arguments with other proofs that have occurred in history. These proofs were actions taken by the government that were indeed reactions instigated due to the actions of a few or those connected to this shadow government. I can understand your reluctance to admit past conspiracies in the face of such proof but really think you maintain public denial to simply support your hold on your current argument only. In short I really do not think you are as adamant of your beliefs 100% as you propose in your posts. Perhaps you simply enjoy playing “devils advocate” or just enjoy a good debate. If not Kudos, if so, then all is fair…debates are fun. Yet the fact that our Government went through a major paradigm shift in the last 50 years can be perceived as a problem.
It is a problem that has evolved from huge amounts of tax dollars pumped into a system that was created to fight a cold war, which created a massive expansion in covert technology fueled by a military industry (which FDR warned us against), and the control of information (the CIA was created as well as many alphabet groups in the interest of national security). The possibility that such technology and information could be used against the public that funded it is not a preposterous one at all. It has happened before and will no doubt happen again. Couple that with a public that is getting fat on its own wealth and comfort creates an atmosphere in which part of that public doesn’t wish to know the dirt as long as it doesn’t endanger their prosperity (the world wide accusations that are being sometimes sent to us via alternate press). That is the only edge a corrupt government needs. It has happened before and will no doubt happen again.
The questions being argued here: is it happening now, and were the attacks on 9-11 a result of a corrupt infrastructure. Is it so far fetched? No. Is it happening? Cant be sure but there are a lot of unanswered questions. Questions that could easily be answered if there wasn’t a lot of political posturing and sidestepping. These actions of evasion can only feed the fires of the ideas of conspiracy. Many of them not new at all. Yet in the end could only prove to be simple conspiracy created by people who crave excitement. Sad thing is that TRUTH would put all the dissent to rest, and no truth has been forthcoming. No truth either from a lack of desire to tell such truths or a the lack of ability because the truth would topple those in charge out of those positions.
I have tried to answer your question conceptually Eric and not in a belittling way. I cannot answer your question outright because like everyone else here, I simply do not know. But neither do you. You have your faith and I have my doubts. But we are still both Americans and when push came to shove I would fight by your side against tyranny and oppression and offer my life for a bother in arms. I love America. I love it’s people. I love the ideals it was founded on. In my eyes it is really those ideals that are America itself and not the borders or the color of it’s flag or even the blood soaked soil our forefathers have died on. It is the ideals they died for and those that are dying now for.
When they find out or suspect that those ideals are being compromised for the benefit of a few, to the cost of the many, then rest assured they will try to educate themselves and no longer be the “unaware public”. They do this in the spirit of patriotism, a patriotism to the ideals and not those that supposedly represent those ideals. They do this so they could then partake in the political movements that have proven to be a catalyst for positive change. The March on Washington in 1963 (civil rights movement) was not an attempt to overthrow the Government, which at the time was also being called fascist and corrupt by some. But the Tax Revolt (Boston Tea Party) in December of 1773 was and even then there were those that opposed this movement, calling those involved conspirators and revolutionaries.
Who is right and who is wrong? That’s not the point. The point is to become aware. Even if we just become sheep that are aware.
Baa Baa Jim
Eric, you're still on this site? Go back to the country and take it up the ass the way you like it you fucking farm animal.
9-11 was an act of war. The world theatre is not a court. Those that attacked us do not play by American rules. Therefore, they are not afforded the luxury of a trial by jury. There will never be a way to convince everyone that the right parties are being punished for these actions. But as long as the majority of Americans agree, then that dictates the prescribed course.
>Tell me that this evidence is in the realm of “without a shadow of doubt”.
There are video tapes with bin Laden admitting to it. Prove they are fakes.
>Moreover the actual conflicting evidence that IS out there...
Again, I haven't heard a stitch.
>All are elements of conspiracy. That is why these articles and pages on the internet are here. Thousands of them.
I don't believe everything I read. Especially not on the internet. You shouldn't either.
Monica Lewinski
Tell me SF Imc and Jim Morrison (above) do not have an agenda.
But in this case, I'll give you a pass because I happen to agree. Nefarious.
What is in a name?
IndyMedia =
Independent Media =
claims to be media that is not corporate controlled =
impies advocating free speech =
implies no agenda
but in reality the agenda is
Anti-globalism
anti-corporation
anti-Americanism
anarchism
socialism
etc.
Nefarious? You could say that.
Before I came here, I did not even realize that I could in fact be seen as a "fan" of conspiracy theories, a paranoid, etc...
I thought that my feelings towards, not America itself, but rather capitalism, were founded on facts. I take as examples the necessity of a Third World to sustain a capitalist state or the inequalities capitalism creates because of the principle of inheritance, when an individual is penalized with lesser opportunities for having economically inefficient genitors. I also thought I remained critical of the external affairs policy of the American establishment because of several facts that came to be known due to the consistent work of investigative journalists and human rights activists. Again, I take as examples the discreet American bombarding of Laos in the 60's, which had nothing to do with the Viet-Nam war, but rather a social reform that was about to happen there. There are also the U.S. sponsored military coups d'état in Indonesia, in 1965, and in Chile, in 1973. I can also state the creation, training and weapon supplying of the "death squadrons" by the CIA, in El Salvador, the sponsoring and protection of the CIA for drug lord Noriega in Panama until things went wrong, when he suddenly became a menace. President George Bush was condemned by the International Court of Justice for "illegal use of military force" in the raids on Nicaragua and yet, he could still launch Desert Storm, of which could be said many things regarding military procedures to invalidate the use of diplomacy. American aid to the state of Israel is illegal since 1977, when it was decided than any contribution to a government secretly producing nuclear weapons was prohibited. Israel may today have more than 200 nuclear warheads. The American establishement also admitted its contribution to the invasion by Australia of East Timor, where oil is abundant, resulting in the death of more than 150 000 people. A blind eye was turned on the massacre of 700 000 Indonesians after Suharto's U.S. sponsored coup d'état.
So to me, it seems evident that the American government's motives are more often than not quite questionable. History proved that corporate media twisted many facts to spread patriotic propanganda, revealing the truth only decades afterwards, in the government's archives, where few people look.
What I want to say is that although it is still too early to jump to conclusions regarding the events of September 11th, questions ought to be raised and a thourough inquiry has to be conducted, regardless who the guilty party is. Like in many other crimes, all the implicated parties have motives and alibis. The inquiry is just as necessay as it is for Americans citizens to be more objectively critical of their government and less inconditionally patriotic.
All ideals eventually turn bad after being adulterated by those exploiting popular support. Stalline's vision of communism ruined the ideals of Marx. The Church capitalized on the ideals of Christ. Lobbyists of today have made Democracy the shadow of itself. Buisness tycoons have taken away the advantages of Capitalism and kept them to themselves.
Everything is fallible, which is why everything must be questionned. When one stops doubting, he stops contributing to the human cause. Having static and firmly planted ideas is but damaging our society.
Always doubt,
s.w.
p.s.: I heard this site was hosted or sponsored by Noam Chomsky. True or not, I suggest everyone in here to read his work. Especially "What Uncle Sam Really Wants", which is a good start to know they way world events occur.
p.p.s.: Have any of you heard of the ECHELON project? As soon as I am finished writing it, I will post here a report on the systematic monitoring of world telecommunications.
By the way, anyone can use a name. yoyos always come back so don't believe everything you read.
>But this war is a more serious subject than playing word games and trading clever insults.
I couldn't agree more yoyo. I couldn't agree more.
Here's exactly how serious it is:
http://download.consumptionjunction.com/multimedia/cj_9833.ram
>While you're scoring debating points real life is going on without you.
Oh believe me, I keep well informed of what is happening in 'real' life yoyo, my pal. I don't have a choice if I want to keep my head and body attached.
>Just look at the record, if the Right or Left had any real answers they would have produced them by now.
Who do you know that offers any better answers yoyo? Islamic fundamentalists? The Palestinian Authority? IndyMedia?
>What's your agenda Eric, to kill time?
My agenda is to be honest with myself. To be honest with others. To not conceal who I am or try to fool people. To accept those with whom I have common values. To battle those that are a threat to those values.
I could rant on all day. Maybe my agenda IS really just to kill time. Hell, that's pretty much what we're doing on this planet anyway. I just hope at the end of the day, someone, anyone, left, right or otherwise, gets my point.
Tariq Ali has an interesting response to the killing of Daniel Perl:
Who Really Killed Daniel Pearl?
The US is ignoring evidence of links with Pakistan's secret service
By Tariq Ali
in Lahore, Pakistan
It has been a stunningly beautiful spring in Pakistan. But the surface calm is deceptive. When the war in Afghanistan began, I suggested that the Taliban would be rapidly defeated and that the "jihadi" organisations and their patrons would regroup in Pakistan and, sooner or later, start punishing General Musharraf's regime. This process is now under way.
In recent months, the jihadis have scored three big hits: the kidnapping and brutal murder of the Wall Street Journal reporter, Daniel Pearl; the assassination of the interior minister's brother; and the bombing of a church in the heart of Islamabad's tightly protected diplomatic enclave. There have also been targeted killings of professionals in Karachi: more than a dozen doctors belonging to the Shi'a minority have been shot.
All these acts were designed as a warning to Pakistan's military ruler: if you go too far in accommodating Washington, your head will also roll. Some senior journalists believe an attempt on Musharraf's life has already taken place. Are these acts of terrorism actually carried out by hardline groups such as Jaish-e-Mohammed and Harkatul Ansar, which often claim them? Probably, but these groups are only a shell. Turn them upside down and the rational kernel is revealed in the form of Pakistan's major intelligence agency - the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI), whose manipulation of them has long been clear.
Those sections of the ISI who patronised and funded these organisations were livid at "the betrayal of the Taliban". Being forced to unravel the only victory they had ever scored - the Taliban takeover in Kabul - created enormous tensions inside the army. Unless this background is appreciated, the terrorism shaking the country today is inexplicable.
Colin Powell's statement of March 3, exonerating the ISI from any responsibility for Pearl's disappearance and murder, is shocking. Few in Pakistan believe such assurances. Musharraf was not involved, but he must know what took place. He has referred to Pearl as an "over- intrusive journalist" caught up in "intelligence games". Has he told Washington what he knows? And if so, why did Powell absolve the ISI?
The Pearl tragedy has shed some light on the darker recesses of the intelligence networks. Pearl was a gifted, independent-minded investigative journalist. On previous assignments he had established that the Sudanese pharmaceutical factory - bombed on Clinton's orders - was exactly that and not a shady installation producing biological and chemical weapons, as alleged by the White House. Subsequently, he wrote extensively on Kosovo, questioning some of the atrocity stories dished out by Nato spin-doctors to justify the war on Yugoslavia.
Pearl was never satisfied with official briefings or chats with approved local journalists. Those he was in touch with in Pakistan say he was working to uncover links between the intelligence services and terrorism. His newspaper has been remarkably coy, refusing to disclose the leads Pearl was pursuing.
Any western journalist visiting Pakistan is routinely watched and followed. The notion that Daniel Pearl, setting up contacts with extremist groups, was not being carefully monitored by the secret services is unbelievable - and nobody in Pakistan believes it.
The group which claimed to have kidnapped and killed Pearl - "The National Youth Movement for the Sovereignty of Pakistan" - is a confection. One of its demands was unique: the resumption of F-16 sales to Pakistan. A terrorist, jihadi group which supposedly regards the current regime as treacherous is putting forward a 20-year-old demand of the military and state bureaucracy.
The principal kidnapper, the former LSE student Omar Saeed Sheikh - whose trial begins in Karachi today - has added to the mystery. He carelessly condemned himself by surrendering to the provincial home secretary (a former ISI operative) on February 5. Sheikh is widely believed in Pakistan to be an experienced ISI "asset" with a history of operations in Kashmir. If he was extradited to Washington and decided to talk, the entire story would unravel. His family are fearful. They think he might be tried by a summary court and executed to prevent the identity of his confederates being revealed.
So mysterious has this affair become that one might wonder who is really running Pakistan. Official power is exercised by General Musharraf. But it is clear that his writ does not extend to the whole state apparatus, let alone the country. If a military regime cannot guarantee law and order, what can it hope to deliver? Meanwhile, Daniel Pearl's widow is owed an explanation by her own state department and the general in Islamabad.
Tariq Ali is a frequent contributor to CounterPunch. HIs latest book, The Clash of Fundamentalisms, is published by Verso.
>“To accept those with whom I have common values. To battle those that are a threat to those values.”<
THAT is your agenda…why? In your own words:
>“Because the kooky conspiracy theories entertain me. I also like a good debate.”<
Of course you try and convince us of another agenda:
>“My agenda is to be honest with myself. To be honest with others.”<
No doubt you use your powerful intellect and wisdom you have gained by traveling the world…where was it…oh yes:
>”Much more valid is real life experience. I've been to most of West Africa, several countries in Central and South America, China, and of course, most of Europe. I've seen what it's like first hand. Of all the places I've visited, I've not found any that I'd prefer to call home.”<
Lets have a recap of your debate abilities… revealing to us all your fine standards and mentality:
>“If you anti-American pieces of shit don't like this country or it's governement, then get on a fucking plane to the country of your choice, you scum sucking terrorist cells.”<
>“I do agree that the educational system in this country is screwed up, A bunch of lazy teachers that want a lot of vacation time mostly.”<
>”You're a whiner. So get on that plane...or are you just a sackless wonder as we all expect that you are?”<
>”Toby or Koonta Kintay?<”
>”You paranoid motherfucker.<”
>”If you wanna make me leave, come try. If you don't like it here, then get on the plane. Otherwise, shut the hell up because your whining is obnoxious and your rantings make no sense.”<
>”Yes, I question everything my government does.<”
>”As the conspirators continue to let me have my cushy job, fat salary, 4 bedroom house with 2 car garage, 3 hots and a cot, and all the cool perks that go along with being me...well I say "keep up the good work!”<
>”In this world I am the ONLY one I believe.”<
>”I think you should study history a bit more.”<
>”Yes, I've studied history. Anyone who has knows it's mostly biased recounts.”<
And then of course…your honesty that you so eloquently wish us to believe you have::
“My agenda is to be honest with myself. To be honest with others.”
>”I was born in Macon, GA. Mother's maiden name is Bell. SSN is 259-39-8611”<
>”that that was a fake SSN”<
>“And where do you read that I imply no one should be allowed to dissent? Hate to tell ya but you're about as clueless of what I stand for as your post conveys brains in your head.”<
Eric the basic problem with this county is not those that question the leaders and the morals or possible agendas they may be hiding as you believe. In fact it those people who have made this country as free as it is for the last 250 years. It was those type of people who signed the Declaration of Independence. Then there were the corrupt or the blind worshipers of false doctrines who were shouting the same things we have seen in your posts through out this page. Shut up, get out, I know more then you, then of course your last resort to intelligent rebuttal, slander and profanity, even anti-Semitism. It is the people like you who talk out of their ass to accomplish whatever their emotions reflect at the time, then pat them selves on the back for it feeling the pride of a fool alone in the world. A world you barely have a grasp on. I see you as the idiot that constantly has a beer in one hand with a rifle in the other, opinionated against anything that threatens your comfort and self image. You are the mindless slave mentality and those who manipulate you love you as you wave your flag of patriotism while they pass you in a parade of lies snickering at you behind your back for your gullibility. You are unfortunately the enemy of freedom without even a clue to that fact. You will lose your little war on the people when the last straw of change breaks your metaphoric back of gun toting, white supremacist, beer guzzling mentality. You will no doubt then punish the world like all the other psychopaths have in history by climbing onto the roof of a tall building and start to eliminate them one at a time until the swat team finally takes you out.
>” Big news flash for all you idiots out here If you live in America, you live in the greatest nation on this planet!!! It’s not perfect, but IT DEFINITELY IS THE BEST.”<
It is the best country not because of people you…BUT IN SPITE OF YOU!
While those around you make your world better, you scream at them in contempt and then get fat on their efforts and claim to be the defender of that which you try to prevent with your scream of imagined patriotism.
You are worse then a tapeworm, you are a tapeworm with a high opinion of himself.
I pity you. But you are forgiven. Have a nice day.
Baa Baa Jim
I feel like a million dollars! To know someone out there has tracked my opinions ever so closely! You are my first fan! I don't know what to say! How long did it take to put that together Jim?? Be honest now and tell the truth! I'm utterly astounded! To think that someone out there spent so much time hanging on so many of my words! Mission accomplished! I'll definately sleep well tonight! Thank you, Jim. Thank you.
You work for Indybay don't you Jim? You thought I was a disinformation agent from the very start of my postings on sf indymedia, so you tracked my posts. Paranoid Jim? Is indybay afraid of little old me? Funny isn't it? A single, solitary nobody with right wing opinions sitting at a keyboard on the East coast, with too much free time on his hands, could grab the attention of and manipulate the SF indybay left by forcing them to place attention where they least care to distribute it! I am an utter genius! And you are my sheep. I am so fulfilled right now!
Hey Jim, can you get me a job as an indybay board operator. I could keep playing devils advocate like this all day, stirring up turmoil and keeping things interesting. The readers love me. I'm the guy you all love to hate!! The people's champ with the million dollar elbow! Off the top rope!
Just because you're paranoid,
don't mean they're not after you!
- Curt Cobain
And who'da thought
it's just little old me.
Mr. Don't-giva-f*ck
still won't leave.
- Eminem
My appoligies to all Zionists and the Jewish state of Israel if anyone else got that idea from any of my masterpieces.
This is your beloved leader signing off for the day.
But I'll be back. Tomorrow. Same bat time. Same bat channel.
If any of you indybay board ops wanna talk to me in private, we can discuss the terms. My email address is posted. I'd love to hear from my fan base!
The President. Ahlan wa Sahlan [Welcome]. It's a great privilege to welcome a world statesman, a leader of Arab and Muslim people, and a good friend of the United States, His Majesty King Fahd bin `Abd al-`Aziz Al Sa`ud.
Although he is no stranger to our shores, it's been almost 8 years since he has paid an official visit to the United States. And I'm honored to welcome him back again today.
King Fahd's visit is in keeping with the warm, personal relations enjoyed between the leaders of our two countries, a tradition which began 40 years ago this week when King Fahd's father and President Franklin Roosevelt met to exchange views. The good will that emerged from that meeting of two great men has enormously benefited both our peoples in the last four decades.
The friendship and cooperation between our governments and people are precious jewels whose value we should never underestimate. The positive nature of our relations demonstrates that cultural differences, as distinct as our own, need not separate or alienate peoples from one another.
As the guardians of Mecca and the protectors of your faith, you rightfully exert a strong moral influence in the world of Islam, and the people of the United States are proud of their leadership role among the democratic nations.
King Fahd, I hope that we can work together to seek a new rapprochement between the Islamic world and the Western democracies. Destiny has given us different political and social systems, yet with respect and good will, as our two countries have demonstrated, so much can be accomplished.
I firmly believe that in the years ahead, there should be and will be a more powerful recognition of the common interests shared by these two significant world forces. Already, the bonds of commerce are strong, especially between our two countries. Petroleum from Saudi wells helps drive the engines of progress in the United States, while at the same moment, American technology and know-how help in the construction of Saudi roads, hospitals, and communications systems.
Saudi Arabia has grown into one of America's largest trading partners. The commercial and economic power that we exert in the world spurs enterprise and bolsters stability.
I'd like to take this opportunity to express admiration for the responsible manner in which Saudi Arabia has conducted its economic affairs. King Fahd and other Saudi leaders, conscious of the global impact of their financial and economic decisions, have earned our respect and gratitude.
Their many humanitarian contributions touch us deeply, as well. Saudi aid to refugees uprooted from their homes in Afghanistan has not gone unnoticed here, Your Majesty. The people of the United States share with the people of Saudi Arabia a deep moral outrage over the continuing aggression and butchery taking place in Afghanistan. The citizens of the Western democracies and the Muslim world, by all that they believe to be true and just, should stand together in opposition to those who would impose dictatorship on all of mankind.
Marxist tyranny already has its grip on the religious freedom of the world's fifth largest Muslim population. This same grip strangles the prayers of Christians, Jews, and Muslims alike. We all worship the same God. Standing up to this onslaught, the people of Afghanistan, with their blood, courage, and faith, are an inspiration to the cause of freedom everywhere.
Afghanistan, of course, is not the only conflict in the region. We're also concerned about the tragic war between two of Saudi Arabia's neighbors -- Iran and Iraq -- a conflict that is raging only a few minutes by air from Saudi territory. This bloodshed has dragged on far too long and threatens peace throughout the region. The United States will do what we can, diplomatically, to end the fighting. And we will cooperate with Saudi Arabia to ensure the integrity of your borders.
Your Majesty, I look forward to our discussions about these and other serious problems which continue to plague the Middle East. Together, our considerable influence and our moral suasion can, at the very least, decrease the threat of war.
If the Saudi and American Governments focus their energies, progress can be made, especially in the lingering dispute between Israel and her neighbors.
I continue to believe that a just and lasting settlement, based on United Nations Security Council Resolution 242, is within reach. The security of Israel and other nations of the region and the legitimate rights of the Palestinian people can and should be addressed in direct negotiations. It is time to put this tragedy to rest and turn the page to a new and happier chapter.
Bringing about a better and more peaceful world will require courage, integrity, and wisdom. King Fahd and others in his family before him have been admired for just these traits.
I look forward to our discussions, King Fahd, and welcome to the United States.
The King. [In English] President, Mrs. Reagan, the people -- thank you very much, Mr. Reagan. I'm very sorry because my English is not good. I try to speak English, but I can't speak English good. Now I speak Arabic -- very sorry.
[In Arabic] Mr. President, I should like to express my happiness on the occasion of my first meeting with you on the soil of the United States and express my satisfaction with the steady growth of relations between our two countries. I look forward to a fruitful exchange of views for the benefit of our two countries and peoples in the interest of peace in our region.
Mr. President, since the historic meeting between His Majesty the late King `Abd al-`Aziz Al Sa`ud and the late President Franklin Roosevelt 40 years ago this month, the leaders of our two countries have continued to meet from time to time to discuss ways of promoting friendship and cooperation between our two countries and to consult and exchange views on international matters of mutual interest. This visit to your friendly country takes place in this same context.
Permit me, Mr. President, to turn back the pages of history to the period following the First World War, to the time when the majority of the Arab countries were suffering under the yoke of colonialism; when your country affirmed the principles that advocated the right of peoples to freedom, independence, and self-determination.
At that time, when the name of the United States stood for freedom, justice, and independence, the aspirations of the Arab peoples were directed toward your country as the defender of truth and justice. Now we are in a new era in which the United States reaffirms those principles, this time under your leadership, Mr. President.
Mr. President, the majority of the Arab countries gained their freedom and independence, with the exception of one people -- the Palestinian people, who committed no wrong that could justify what has befallen them. The Palestinians, who were never aggressors or invaders, found themselves, through no fault of their own, the victims of unjust aggression.
The Palestinian question is the single problem that is of paramount concern to the whole Arab nation and affects the relations of its peoples and countries with the outside world. It is the one problem that is the root cause of instability and turmoil in the region. I hope, Mr. President, that your administration will support the just cause of the Palestinian people.
We only ask for a just position that conforms with the history and ideals of your great country, a position that is consonant with its role of leadership in the international community. Such a position will earn the United States the respect and appreciation not only of the Arab and Muslim worlds but also of freedom-loving peoples everywhere.
Similarly, the problem of Lebanon needs to be addressed in such a way that would guarantee the withdrawal of Israel from Lebanese territory and the achievement of Lebanon's sovereignty, territorial integrity, and full independence.
Mr. President, I share your view that Saudi Arabia, with its Islamic beliefs and principles, and the United States, with its ideals and values, can together find a common ground against aggression, injustice, and oppression.
Mr. President, as far as the people of Afghanistan are concerned, this people who want nothing but freedom against oppression, freedom from killing women and children -- this people deserve our help.
Mr. President, I do not wish to be long, but I would like to say in conclusion that it is, indeed, a pleasure to have this opportunity to congratulate you on the full confidence that your people have placed in you by supporting your Presidency for a second term. This clearly demonstrates the extent of the confidence your people have in your wise leadership and your farsightedness.
And, in conclusion, Mr. President, I would like to thank you very much and to thank the American people and all the officials of the U.S. Government. And I wish you progress and good health. And I would like to thank God for giving us a beautiful sunny day today. [Laughter]
[In English] Thank you very much. I come again in the United States. I see many people, my close friends. And next time, I come just like anybody. Thank you very much. [Laughter]
Note: The President spoke at 10:10 a.m. at the South Portico of the White House, where the King was accorded a formal welcome with full military honors. The King's remarks in Arabic were translated by an interpreter. Following the ceremony, the President and King Fahd met in the Oval Office. They then joined U.S. and Saudi officials for a meeting in the Cabinet Room.
>”And I didn't even think you cared!”<
A little editing will correct this statement: And I didn't even think
There…that’s better isn’t it?
As far as me…not sure where you got the idea I cared about you…just your oppressive behavior. What was it you called it…right wing? I think not. Nazism…yeah that’s closer.
>” I feel like a million dollars! To know someone out there has tracked my opinions ever so closely! You are my first fan! I don't know what to say! How long did it take to put that together Jim?? Be honest now and tell the truth! I'm utterly astounded! To think that someone out there spent so much time hanging on so many of my words! Mission accomplished! I'll definately sleep well tonight! Thank you, Jim. Thank you.”<
Hehe flatter yourself all you like, but your pubescent attempts to get me angry or distraught from some illusion you create to show everyone how honored you feel due to my attention is a rather weak attempt to frustrate, and anger me or others. To make all of this about you, when you yourself said it was not about you in a previous post. Attempts that again resemble those made by kids at a 3rd grade level. It doesn’t take a PHD to realize that when you are fighting a losing battle the best defense is laughing at the opposition to return the pain that you have received. You are simply trying to cause me pain by laughing at me or pointing out that I really care or whatever…that you actually mean something high and mighty to me, which in turn only means that I hurt you. Yes, I know I did, or you would have never reacted the way you did, and I am sorry for that, again I do pity you.
I did not say all that to get a reaction from you nor to anger you, that is your MO proved by your childlike reaction of being singled out by me and others in the past if you scroll up. I was just stating a fact, that you are a very good example of “the enemy”, the oppressive nature we have all been afflicted by yet control by evolving beyond it. Something which is unfortunately beyond your capacity I believe unless your posts are simple manipulation and you actually do not feel the way you have represented yourself as feeling. As far as all the work it took to make the post, well it took me the better part of an hour maybe (may you feel the pride of a thousand lions for that). See all I had to do was scroll up then cut and paste…oh wait…I’m sorry “hanging on your words” yeah that’s what you called it. Your welcome for the goods nights rest you have coming tonight imagining that someone worships you or whatever gets you off.
For you others out there I hope that you saw that I was just trying to draw a parallel to the double speak and self righteousness that cripples this county in the voting booth and in any attempts to question the authorities we create, and hold them accountable. For the suspicion some hold against the established order. I feel that Eric here is a prime example of the very people that do this duplicity in our country so I simply pointed it out by quoting it in his own words. I don’t think he liked that very much. I didn’t mean to kick a dead horse as there were other posts that stated to just ignore Eric, but I feel we have much to learn from him. He represents to me the opposition.
>” You work for Indybay don't you Jim?”<
…and all the other remarks on this subject.
Again we see the tapeworm with a high opinion of himself. I am just a guy Eric, just like you. I live on the West coast and I too have too much time on my hands. Your accusations regarding my working for SF or Indybay kinda comes from left field, not sure why you think that as from what I can see they respect the opinion of anyone. Just as I do, yet also have opinions of my own yet I am not under the illusion that anyone can threaten my views like you are, so I have no reason to “battle” anyone as you do. I call that oppression. I am opposed to that.
>” I do take offense to you calling me anti-Semitic. Where was that?”<
well you got me there…not sure why I typed that in. Shame on me for not proofing my work. What I meant was “racist” which I gathered from your calling Toby “Koonta Kintay” with the implications of an insult. Guess I should proof from now on. My apologies. Racism offends me.
Again I assure you that I am in no way affiliated with any portion of the creation or running of this website. I hope you do come back and post so maybe that by simple osmosis alone, you can absorb some inkling of the ideas of how the world really works. I hope you can learn to do so in a manner that speaks with more intelligence and respect then that 3rd grade mentality you have been using.
I was tempted to write you an email to discuss things further so to keep the trash off these boards but I thought you might interpret that in a negative way (like me working for this website again). I do ask your permission to do so as I think I could gain some insight from your views and would welcome any replies as long as you do more then the general mudslinging you have shown yourself capable of on this page. If that is all your interested in then tell me no. I would seriously try to understand your views though, and invite you to hear mine if you would like to hear some of the sources of my studies. I would even do this in a real time chat program like AIM or Yahoo messenger. Like you, I love a good debate.
Anyway – enjoy that restful sleep!
Baa Baa Jim
>>"Now try and convince me that with the resources in the hands of those in power that they cannot bury a reality and then publicly reproduce a different reality there by keeping the true one hidden."<<
>"Monica Lewinski"<
Did anyone happen to notice the legislation that was pushed through congress while our attention was directed to the Monica Lewinski scandles?
Tell me what you'd have America do after being attacked? After thousands of innocent Americans were slaughtered like the sheep you accuse us of being? Tell us, should we blame our President? Our government? Should we revolt and storm Washington? Slaughter our Congressmen, Senators, throw out the Constitution and start over?
Tell us...what to do. Shall we do nothing? Petition our government for an investigation because we don't believe it was who they say it was that attacked us? Wait until every man woman in America is whole-heartedly convinced that we all know exactly who was responsible before we take any forcible action?
Tell us. Enlighten me oh great anti-facist?"<
Like any country that is under the influence of denial to the extent that nothing constructive CAN be done, step out of the denial by first admitting that there is a problem with our government and it’s shadow government. Define who is in control and then go from there.
Before homeland defense gets too big to stop anything resembling this kind of effort.
If it isn’t already too late.
what does that make you?
I heard someone say third grade logic.
third graders are smarter than all of us here, so don't insult others by referring to them, i mean are they really insufficiently attuned at logic? they just don't have a use for it. if they needed it they'd use it.
most people would probably stop using it as well if we weren't so f-ed up.
laws and words. it's only informal logic and intuition that seem to work in the real world.
three year old logic is awesome!!!!!!
America of the Americas
we have plenty of illusions to distract us. druggies, rapists, murderers, politicians, business leaders, TerroRISTS, philosoPhErs. most think these are the bad men of the world, and if the world is insufficient, well blame them. Bur really they're all scapegoats, isn't the potential for any of them within everyone. we have a sick culture. they reflect all of us. so many people playing that slow, silent, logistical game of annihilation. i am better i am better. than thou. i have a sharp mind and a clever wit and a Phd and a hundred papers and fifty awards and two thousand acquaintences with three hundred friends and a thousand patented medicines deserving my nice big house with money and cars and hot tubs and television plus jets. or maybe 20 butlers a week. or a gardener cause although i am so seductively
self-effacingly
deprecatingly
humble
I am superior
don't you think
i mean how can someone actuallly begin to love America their people, their tribe........when they';re just a giant voluntary prison of bloated self-loving hard-working medicated rocket launcher monkeys
freedom? 1st world freedoms? sure the first world believes. thats why we sell it to the highest bidder.
with all the extras.
haha...you are so right
the metaphoric use of the “third grade mentality” is a demeaning process to the third graders...but the word immature is just so dull…what to replace it with?
I stand corrected
Jim, honestly I've got more respect for you than most posting here. You're not the typical mudslinger or name caller and you don't think on a third grade level. I honestly believe that you do love this country and want things to be better. In fact, I think most of the people here really feel the same way, excepting the rebellious children who have no idea how good they've got it in America.
The problem I have is how people on Indybay go about expressing their "love" of country. It's like an abusive man coming home from work and beating his wife's ass because the beer she brought him from the fridge wasn't cold enough. You don't show how much you love something by condemning it or tearing it apart.
It's so easy to point the finger at President Bush and scream "stone him!!" like this is some Biblical execution or Salem witch hunt. It's easy to blame everything on the elusive "government" and to claim conspiracy and shadow government and all that with not an ounce of solid evidence. And then to back it up with the same old redundant historical debated nonsense about COINTLPRO and FDR knew the attack on Pearl Harbor coming, and police brutality, and the Patriot ACT and blah blah blah. You give me any notion, any random thought, any conspiracy theory and a few minutes to think about it and I guarantee I can back it up with a bunch of unanswerable questions and "mysterious" circumstances that seemingly support it. I can make a credible argument that suggests even the most ridiculous notion is plausible. And that s what is going on with the left and indybay.
The tougher path is to try and see through all the BS and see that the President and the leaders and the governement are trying to do the best job they can here. This country is a big machine, compkicated with a lot of gadgets and moving parts and there is no black and white, right and wrong, true and false hard nose solutions. But I know what it feels like to be that guy calling the shots and trying to make it work. I served this country for 12 years in the military and went from being the guy cleaning the toilets to the guy responsible for telling the guy to go clean the toilets. When your the one responsible for calling the shots, everyone wants a piece of you. Everyone knows sooo much. No matter if you walk on water, you still suck scum in the eyes of some.
But when I see Bush on TV, at ground zero with his bullhorn and arm around the neck of another American Hero, or I see him in Shanghai, China answering some little smart mouthed Chinese college girl about why it's wrong for China to want to re-take Taiwan, or I see him aside Vlad Putin, or in Poland, or Ohio, or in front of congress or practically in a different place every single day spreading the ideals of freedom and justice and tolerance and Americanism, then I feel proud. Not arrogant. Not boastful. But proud. Because I know he's trying to do a good job. The best he can. Better than that philanthropist Clinton who was too busy getting head from his intern and lying about it to your faces and locking this country up in political scandal for months. I don't care how much of a diplomat he was, or how much charisma he had, he disgraced himself, his family, the American people and the office of the President. But Bush is in there giving it a go.
And if you don't like it, then vote him out. Vote all the freakin' Republicans out. Start a socialist movement or an anarchist movement, or whatever. Take the country by storm, vote your anti-american candidates into every office and the disband the government. Good fricken luck to ya. I'll be long dead before that happens because you'll have to have killed me. And that's ok, cause I'm gonna die one day anyway.
The reality is that indymedia is a left wing propaganda website. The agenda is disguised as socialism, anarchism, anti-globalism, all these extreme things. But everyone knows these things won't come to pass. They make no sense. Why would a fat lazy American want to give up his jelly doughnuts, McDonalds hambuger, 7-11 slurpee to have to go out and start over with some chaotic, unproven form of government. No, never gonna happen. So what IndyMedia really is, is a vehicle for the left. The democrats. To slander and poke and stab and thrust invectives and hurl stones at conservatism. I see IndyMedia as a political machine for the left. And that's the name of that tune. So be it. Nothing wrong with it. I have more faith in the system, as screwed up as it may be, as dumb as the American people can be at times, than to say that crap like Indybay should not exist. Hell, I want it. I get a lot of entertainment from reading these ramblings and rantings. I believe in freedom. Speech and otherwise. Rant on people!
But in one hundred and sixty some odd days, the Republicans will take over the nation. That's the bottom line because Stone Cold said so. If you don't like it, you better vote otherwise. I suggest democratic ticket. There's a lot of desparate Democrats on the TV right now grasping at straws to get your vote. "Bush had advance warning of 9-11!" How ludicrous. Blatantly calling him a murder practically. But not one solid stitch of evidence to suggest there was anything concrete known or that there was anything he could do. So grasp those straws because soon we'll be rid of these folks and then we can get down to business. The business of smashing Hussein. The business ousting Arafat. The business of free trade amongst democracies in the western hemisphere and the the world. The business of waiting for Castro to kick over before we send any cash to cuba for christ's sake. Did Jimmy Freakin' Carter forget about the Cuban Missile crisis or what?? Now that Russia bankrupted itself trying to "bury us" by keeping up with our military might during the cold war, Castro is hurting for funds. To hell with that!! Let him eat cake, for cryin' out loud.
Ok, so whatever. Jim, if you wanna email me, please do. I'd love to discuss this stuff with you further. Anyone, I don't care, I'll talk to anybody. Call me names all you want. It doesn't bother me a bit. But you're not going to convince me by referncing FDR's knowledge of Pearl Harbor, internet conspiracy theories and such hooey. I'll hear personal opinions, perspectives and I respect them. But the rest I screen out. It's debateable, and I call it propaganda.
Oh, and for the record, I'm not a racist.
Later, on December 4th 2001, our commander in chief, head of all of the armed forces of America stated "I knew I needed to act. I knew that if the nation's under attack, the role of the Commander-In-Chief is to respond forcefully to prevent other attacks from happening." Guess what, reading about goats to school children is the first thing Bush did, for a precious 20 minutes and as jets fly, that's a long time. If this is our commander in chief then no wonder Osama hasn't been found, no wonder the continuing danger from terrorism. The most effective terrorists are in the white house and this administration. Bush, Myers, Rice, Rumsfield and others, terrorists leading us down the path of greater mayhem and destruction.
Usually sheep don't try to hurt someone, but with this imposter trying to thwart my coming clean, it can be seen that even those who bend over farther in their defense of the indefensible, are so twisted and contorted that they have no ability to see when the lights come on. Hey, isn't anybody going to congratulate me for stepping beyond being so supportive of the terrorists and finding sanity? This imposter is not me. Save your breath, sore bung-hole.
I don't take anything anyone says here personally. You can't insult me. I feel misunderstood when someone calls me anti-ssemitic or racist, but I'm not insulted. So I'd agree. I'm a painted face, ball juggling, fat red nosed, floppy shoed, most disturbing looking clown most of you'd ever dislike laying eyes on. And it's not so bad.
BTW, reported today on http://www.fromthewilderness.com is the discovery of a planned Denial Of Service attack on FTW. It's getting hotter for those who desperately cling to illusion and they are going to great pains to attempt to block the free dessimination of truth. Funny, they are only underlining and bringing their own downfall that much quicker. The truth will out because people who want the truth to be known are getting the attention they deserve, even the negative attention so far is just giving the truth sayers and seekers more motivation. Gee, one has to feel pity for those who resort to dirty tricks as a modus operandi. Their world must be so twisted, "Oh what a tangled web we weave..."
I am not as left wing as you think. I too was moved and even stood up and cheered in my living room during Bush's first speech after 9-11 and watched all his actions and appearances afterward. I had been glued to CNN since the attacks. He fits the heroic role well. It wasn’t until he seemed to try to steer investigations away from what happened and towards what is going to happen that I started entertaining the idea that there may be more to all this then what we see on the surface. The bottom line is I am not “anti-Bush”. I voted for him. I lost a little faith in both candidates during the vote counting process in Florida but regained it in Bush in his public reactions to 9-11. Then all the other info started rolling in and since then I have had an interest in it all not because I think the any part of the administration is pulling any strings. On the contrary I think they do a good job given their resources. I DO think the whole mess of how much the corporate world has an influence over what is and is not passed by congress is a sad, sedated, and yes maybe even corrupt way of doing politics. But who am I to argue…money does talk.
To me that is the bottom line of conspiracy. The golden rule. He who has the gold, makes the rules. When those rules benefits the wealthy at the expense of the “non-wealthy” and then tries to hide it so there is no sparks of dissent, then I see conspiracy. Conspire is only meeting in secret, or doing something behind closed doors that in turn can effect me. I don’t pretend to preach that there could be a much better way of doing things that will be clean of conspiracy or deceit. People are people and there will always be conspiracy and deceit. Even if there is not there will be those that will try and find it and mislabel not understanding the truth as conspiracy.
Having said that I, like you, read alternative news sources to see another view point. I also agree with you, some people are very aggressive and really jump the gun to quick and it seems they think that there is a conspiracy in everything. I too get irritated with them and sometimes want to tell them all to shut up and look at it from all sides, but some people just NEED the element of conspiracy, but sometimes it is really there. I think there has been conspiracy in the past and also think there will be some in the future, after all we are dealing with people, and they are not infallible. We all take advantage of our position at our work place to some degree, even if it is just eating fries at the drive through window against company policy. The conspiratist view may be somewhat paranoid in nature yet still among all the paranoia I have seen the elements of truth emerge occasionally. It is only those truths that I research and find out for myself what really happened, and then and only then do I label it as premeditated conspiracy. Doing this means you have to wade through a lot of garbage. In doing so you can sometimes get sucked up into it all. Just as easy, you can get sucked up into a right wing view, as you can with a left wing view. I prefer the middle. I usually adopt no pre-formatted way of thinking and take the truths from both sides of the spectrum of a mind-set and toss out what I see as trash and I am left with what I consider a less polluted view of things. Perhaps even more educated because you have studied much more of the issue then just a single view point. But I digress.
I have never stated that I think the Bush administration has set out to make trouble in any way. In my eyes I can’t really say one way or the other if they have any part in the origin of the attacks of 9-11. I simply do not know and can only speculate. In doing so I must look to history, and even then it can seem a somewhat paranoid version of it. But a version of it that has been under a spotlight for a long time. The problem with conspiracy is that the only way it can be solved is if the guilty parties come out and say yes it did happen this way or the accusers of the conspiracy admit that they were wrong in their theories. So when dealing with any of this “conspiracy stuff” there are no absolutes, yet there are no absolutes but for faith in the right wing view. The solid evidence you mentioned in your post does not exist. For either side. It is all faith. Neither side of the spectrum of belief cannot be proven beyond the shadow of a doubt and therefore we have conflict.
Even in such conflict I find little blame to lay at anyone’s feet. . I didn’t call FDR’s actions outright conspiratorial but a brilliant political move. I did mention murder. But in war it is not called murder, it is called necessary casualties. Perhaps I am being too harsh. I am reminded of WWII and the campaign in Norway. Necessary casualties. What I am against is that this is not taught. Most of the time the true facts of what happened in history are never told leaving the learner believing outright lies. The biggest that comes to mind is the fact that Abraham Lincoln was against slavery. The reality is that he gave the emancipation proclamation in an effort to save the US from French and British Invasion from the borders of Mexico and Canada. Instead we have little black children thinking that Abraham Lincoln is their savior. It was just politics. Don’t get me wrong, he was a great man and a hell of a leader. But not nearly as shiny and pristine as we are led to believe. My angst is why cant the truth be taught. It breeds distrust and even encourages the suspicion of conspiracy.
The only conspiracy I see happening right now is that once again the same people who always prosper from war are the same ones that are prospering now. Big banking and the military industrial complex. I bet my last dollar that if in the end there is indeed a conspiracy that is found, they will be found to be involved. Look at all my posts. I have never pointed to anyone but them. I do not put it past bush to be involved in some way as far as his oil connections. Perhaps I may be paranoid but like father like son. I do believe that Bush SR. made some decisions that involved American policy which lined his pocket books in the process. Does that make me anti-American. Maybe I just believe that despite the purity of the functions of any office which can be held high or low, it is in the end only people. People can be greedy and really fucked up. Like you I only trust myself.
To respond to some of your post:
>”So what IndyMedia really is, is a vehicle for the left. The democrats.”<
You could be right. I just use it as an alternative news source to see things that I know I will not see on CNN. This is no http://www.guerrillanews.com but I like being able to make my own comments and hear others. This is actually the first topic I have ever posted on. But even if it is, I am sure there are also a lot of right wing pages out there giving all this some kind of balance in the big picture.
>”Oh, and for the record, I'm not a racist.”<
and your not as much of an asshole as I thought you were from all the previous posts on this page. Not that you NEED that recognition or anything. Just letting you know that when you show character and not anger or aggression you make a much better argument.
>”I'm a painted face, ball juggling, fat red nosed, floppy shoed, most disturbing looking clown most of you'd ever dislike laying eyes on.”<
WE ALL ARE!
Jim
By the way, what's the deal with Cobain? Sure, he's dead (i think), but, did he REALLY pull the trigger?
http://nflb.tripod.com/toxicity.htm
"They done blew up our biggest fanciest building! We gonna get them evil Arabs...."
911 was no joke, I know. But look:
THE AMERICAN PEOPLE DID NOT ELECT GEORGE W. BUSH. He bacame President only after "winning" what can surely be called a travesty of an election; one he would not have one had not an undisclosed number of voters in his brothers home state had thier votes "lost", had thier names "somehow deleted" from voter registration databases, or were unable to overcome physical impedement to poll sites (closed roads, moved sites, public transportation "problems").
LESS THAN A YEAR LATER THE LARGEST ATTACK ON AMERICAN CITIZENS EVER OCCURS, AND THE GOVERNMENT (BUSH ADMINISTRATION) REFUSES TO INVESTIGATE. This is insane. If a dead body was found in Ben Stiller's house the public would want more of an investigation.
THIS IS JUST ANOTHER WELL EXECUTED MEDIA COVER UP. EVERYONE LOVES T.V.! WHY WOULD THEY LIE?
GEORGE BUSH IS INSANE! LITERALY INSANE!
Don't think about him on T.V. in his nice suit talking about "no new taxes...", picture tha bastard back in '65 decapitating cambodians, drinking blood, eating human hearts, smuggling opium, and being a spook. Or isn't that what the CIA was into back then? Oh of course not, everyone in the U.S.A. is cool right? There can't be EVIL in our government, right? Gary Condit has nothing to do with the Levy girl's murder, right?
BEFORE YOU ATTACK MY SPELLING AND CALL ME A TRAITOR....
What will you do when Hungarian soldiers, under authority of the U.N. and NATO come to search your four bedroom home under suspicion that YOU are a terrorist. Own a gun? You could be a terrorist! Post a message on this site? You could be a terrorist? Been arrested? You could be a terrorist? Sun tan and a beard?You MUST be a terrorist!
ALL THIS POLITICAL BULLSHIT IS JUST THAT. BULLSHIT. I URGE EVERY CITIZEN TO BY A RIFLE OR SHOTGUN, KEEP IT IN YOUR CLOSET, AND NEVER, EVER, GIVE IT UP. THE RIGHT TO KEEP ARMS IS NOT TO PROTECT YOURSELF FROM CRIME, IT IS TO PROTECT YOURSELF FROM CORRUPT AND UNJUST GOVERNMENTS. OUR GOVERNMENT COLD NOT BE ANY MORE CORRUPT. THE MORE SUSPICIOUS THE CITIZENS BECOME, THEY WILL BE FORCED TO GO FROME COVERT OPERATIONS TO OUT AND OUT POLICING OF "UNDESIREABLES", AND CIVIL RIGHTS WILL GO OUT THE WINDOW. GREENSPAN COULD MAKE US ALL BROKE BY NEXT WEEK. THEY ARE WILLING AND ABLE TO KILL U.S. CITIZENS TO FURTHER THIER OWN PERSONAL CAUSES. THERE IS EVIL IN THIS WORLD. EVIL LOVES POWER. THERE ARE EVIL FORCES AT WORK IN THIS WORLD. TO DENY THAT IS TO DENY FACT. DO OR DON'T DO WHAT EVER YOU LIKE, BUT DON'T BE SURPRISED WHEN ALL THE THINGS YOU LOVE ABOUT THIS COUNTRY ARE GONE "BECAUSE THATS WHAT IT TOOK TO END TERRORISM", AND, WITH NO INVESTIGATION, WE WON'T EVEN KNOW WHY IT REALLY HAPPENED.
Yes, I'm a little paranoid, and a little imaginative, but at least I won't be surprised. Oh, and if your four bedroom home becomes the command center for your local "terrorist eradication unit" you can come stay with me. I wont even say I told you so....
Rant on with the same tired old lines about Bush. And then read:
http://www.unh.edu/news/Apr02/em_20020430survey.html
and then break down in tears. Because in 160 days the Republicans will run the world!
Muuuuuuuuuuhahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
God Bless America!
While on vacation in Cairo last August, Connecticut Banker Richard Dennison says a shopkeeper in the bazaar told him in detail about planes that would be flown like bombs into the World Trade Center by Arabs in September or October. Furthermore, according to the shopkeeper, the coming attack was a prime topic of conversation at his Mosque.
Dennison, an executive with American Savings Bank, told NewsMax, "I called the FBI about a week after the attack and was transferred to another FBI agent who listened to my story and indicated that I might hear back from another agent in the future. I did not.
"I still have a certain amount of guilt about not reporting the incident to the authorities immediately when I returned. I guess I didn’t really know what to make of it, and I have said over and over, if I knew, the CIA must also have known. I am convinced some agents did.
"I still doubt my voice would have made any difference.”
Dennison had his experience while touring with a bodyguard and a guide in the sprawl of downtown Cairo. At one point, the tourist was escorted to a leather shop where he was told they stocked certain specialty belts he hoped to purchase.
When they entered the shop, the shopkeeper was talking to a friend, perhaps another shopkeeper, in English. The shopkeeper’s friend excused himself, saying that he was going home to play video games. After the friend left, Dennison selected and purchased some belts, then gratuitously asked what video games they played in Cairo.
The Dialogue
The reply was "Flight Simulator,” a popular American-made game that allows the player to practice flight maneuvers using a computer equipped with a joystick.
Thinking that this was a curious game for people in Cairo to be playing, Dennison asked why "Flight Simulator” was popular. The enigmatic response reply was, "You will see.”
Dennison: "What will we see?”
Shopkeeper: "Planes used as bombs.”
Dennison: "That will cost a lot of money to buy the planes.”
Shopkeeper: "It will not cost a thing.”
Dennison: "Who will be flying the planes?”
Shopkeeper: " Arabs.”
Dennison: "What will they bomb with these planes?”
Shopkeeper: "They will bomb the symbol of capitalism in New York City.”
Dennison: "You mean the Stock Exchange?”
Shpkeeper: "No, the World Trade Center.”
Dennison: "When will all this happen?”
Shopkeeper: "Just do not travel in September or October; also stay away from Boston Logan; their security is no good.”
FBI Memo References Plots
This week, Coleen Rowley, the FBI’s chief lawyer in the Minneapolis field office and author of the now-infamous scathing memo to the Bureau’s director about thwarting the nation’s last clear chance to intercept the 19 Arab hijackers of 9-11, hinted between the lines that there were perhaps reports similar to Dennison’s floating about in Bureau circles -- before 9-11:
"It’s quite conceivable that many of the HQ personnel who so vigorously disputed [so-called 20th hijacker Zacarias] Moussaoui’s ability/predisposition to fly a plane into a building were simply unaware of all the various incidents and reports worldwide of Al Qaeda terrorists attempting or plotting to do so.”
Agent Rowley’s reference to disputing Moussaoui’s predisposition to fly a plane into a building was the salient issue at the time she and agents of the Minneapolis field office were unsuccessfully badgering a recalcitrant FBI headquarters to approve a search warrant to explore the contents of Moussaoui’s laptop computer.
The arrest of Moussaoui on INS charges, as well as the fruitless drill to get a warrant came before the tragedy of 9-11. Giving the sentence its clear meaning, the "various incidents and reports worldwide of Al Qaeda terrorist attempting or plotting to do so” also came before 9-11.
Official Charges Pre-knowledge
Furthermore, Dennison’s unsettling revelations come on the heels of assistant U.S. attorney Kenneth Breen accusing Amr Ibrahim Elgindy, an Egyptian born stockbroker on trial in San Diego last week, with knowing in advance about 9-11 and capitalizing on the insider information by attempting to unload $300,000 worth of shares on Sept. 10, 2001.
In court Breen charged that on the afternoon of Sept. 10, Elgindy contacted his broker at Salomon Smith Barney and asked him to sell the stock, confiding in the broker that the Dow Jones industrial average, which at the time stood at about 9,600, would soon dive to below 3,000.
After the federal prosecutor’s sensational charge, the media pressed the FBI on the issue, and senior law enforcement officials said that investigators had no hard evidence that Elgindy had advance information about the Sept. 11 attacks.
Additionally, the officials maintained that they had not found anyone who had prior knowledge of the attacks, conceding only that Elgindy’s attempt to sell the shares in his children’s trust accounts before Sept. 11 had raised questions that had not been fully answered.
Elgindy, his father and brother have been active supporters of Muslim causes. Ibrahim Elgindy, the father, founded a consortium of Muslim organizations in Chicago and spearheaded a 1998 protest on behalf of Muhammad A. Salah, whose assets were seized after U.S. investigators linked Salah to Palestine’s radical Hamas.
I'm going to make printed copies of as much information as I can find concerning "The Governments" fore-knowledge of the 911 attacks, and send them to all my local T.V. stations and papers, and post them on local college, church, civic center, lodge, etc. bullitin boards. Oh, I forgot about radio...
While I'm sure the stories won't get any coverage, I am prepared to hound the media until my hounding in its self becomes the story. I know that me hunger striking in front of my local NBC affiliate will only prove that I'm some kind of kook, but if more people knew that these questions were out there, then more questions would have to be answered.
A lot of posts on sights like this seem to ask "what can I do?". A lot of posts blame the comfort level here in the U.S. as being so high as to have us (the citizens) afraid to affect change for fear of losing some of that comfort. A lot of posts blame each other as individuals for not wanting to lose that comfort.
IF YOU CAN SEE THAT OTERS ARE "TOO SCARED" TO DO ANYTHING YOU SHOULD BE DOING IT YOURSELF.
Don't be afraid. Be active. Stir things up. Maybe do a little time. Who cares? If you can say that you would die for your country, (and a lot of people have been saying that lately) devoting a little time and effort shouldn't be that big of a deal.
I for one would like the U.S.A. to BE what it stands for. I would like a long list of good men to vote for on election days, not 2 or 3 partisan puppets who never worked an honest days work in thier lives.
We need to get rid of politicians who take bribes in ANY form. (There are already some out there...)
We need Americans to open thir eyes to the corporate influence and how a VERY small number of men run these corperations, and therefore run "The Government".
Too often do I hear "So what, I've got a good job, nice car, lots of money. I'm free to do what I please, so so what?"
So....
MEN WHO CRAVE POWER ARE NOT GOOD MEN.
Since we ALL like Hollywood so much: Think about the movies. When something important needs to be done, and the people decide to elect someone to do it, who do they choose? The fat, loudmouthed old mayor who WANTS everyone to pick him? No, they elect the quiet guy who everyone knows always gets the job done.
POLITICANS ARE BY DEFINITION ARE ALREADY BAD CANDIDATES FOR OFFICE.
No one in thier right mind would want the respnsibilty that comes with public office if there were no "fringe benifits".
I'm rambling...
My point...
THE SYSTEM IS BAD. ALL THE WRONG PEOPLE ARE RUNNING FOR OFFICE FOR ALL THE WRONG REASONS. IF WE, AS A NATION, COME TO THE CONCLUSION THAT OUR OWN SOVERIEGN GOVERNMENT KNEW ABOUT, AND ALLOWED THE 911 ATTACKS ON THE WORLD TRADE CENTER AND THE PENTAGON TO BE CARRIED OUT, PERHAPS WE, AS A NATION, CAN PULL OUR HEADS OUT OF OUR WALLETS AND INITIATE SOME REAL CHANGE. BUT FIRST WE MUST PULL OUR OWN HEADS OUT OF OUR OWN WALLETS AS FREE MEN AND WOMEN OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA AND REALLY TRY TO MAKE THINGS HAPPEN.
That's all, just try....
Go ahead. Rant. Babble. Mutter.
Go camp out in front of NBC. You're not getting anything accomplished here.
- Albert Einstein
Those of you who ridicule the concept of a conspiracy should attempt to put forward answers to the questions being raised rather than attacking open minded people who pose them. Try and put forward an argument for a change. This of course means that you have to actually read non government sanctioned information, heaven forbid!
Were you calling me a Democrat? i.e.,"Desperate Democrats..."
If so, good one, LOL LOL LOL.
Eric ,
The topic is clear, your responses are tainted with ignorance. You had the nerve to say to some of these people that if they didn't like what "our " government is doing ... then they should pack their bags and leave. I see it the other way around. I feel that it is folks like yourself that should be leaving.
It is your view that we should not question the acts of our government .
Let me be the first to remind you that the day the citizens of this great country STOP questioning the actions of our government officials .... is the same day the Republic dies and a dictatorship is born.
Liberty CANNOT be preserved without general knowledge of the people.
This hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil government of YOURS, is not the same goverment that our forefathers had in mind when they created AMERICA.
It is now and will always be your job as an American citizen, to question the actions of America's government officials.
If you don't want to do it .... then you should leave.
Concerned citizen, Lee
Eric ,
The topic is clear, your responses are tainted with ignorance. You had the nerve to say to some of these people that if they didn't like what "our " government is doing ... then they should pack their bags and leave. I see it the other way around. I feel that it is folks like yourself that should be leaving.
It is your view that we should not question the acts of our government .
Let me be the first to remind you that the day the citizens of this great country STOP questioning the actions of our government officials .... is the same day the Republic dies and a dictatorship is born.
Liberty CANNOT be preserved without general knowledge of the people.
This hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil government of YOURS, is not the same goverment that our forefathers had in mind when they created AMERICA.
It is now and will always be your job as an American citizen, to question the actions of America's government officials.
If you don't want to do it .... then you should leave.
Concerned citizen, Lee
Unfortunately, it's your post that is tainted with ignorance. You have no clue what my position is, because you have selectively read only certain parts of what I've written.
>I feel that it is folks like yourself that should be leaving.
Left wing logic is fantastically disturbed.
Why should I leave a place that I love and am happy with? If I despised it and was unhappy here, I'd consider it. But I like it here. These radical left wing activists, liberals etc. seem to me to be unhappy here. I'm just curious why they stick around. And I'm not the only one.
Bennet vs. Chompsky:
http://www.indybay.org/news/2002/05/130492_comment.php#131540
But somehow these unhappy leftists always manage to avoid the question. I really want to understand you guys. I really, really do.
>It is your view that we should not question the acts of our government .
No. Go back and REALLY read all the things I've said in this forum. Specifically the post I made entitled "Patriot or traitor" is a good place to start. Then come back and maybe we can have an intelligent discussion on what my "view" really is about.
>Let me be the first to remind you ... blah blah blah banter rant rant banter stammer stutter yell rant rant double rant.
>Concerned citizen, Lee
(as he step down from the soap box)
Do you feel better now? Feel like you've contributed something worthwhile to the cause? Well, here's a newsflash for ya Lee, it was nadda. zip. zilch. zero. luv. Try harder next time.
Wanna impress me with your wisdom and love for this country Lee? Tell me some things that you've personally done to make it better? Say something like, "I served this country for 12 years in the military through desert storm and I wear the National Defense Service Medal on my uniform" or "I volunteered several hours of my time each week at the local elementary school because the children are the future of this great nation of ours" or how about "I'm actively involved with my political party and I vote for candidates that I agree with because the system may not be perfect, but it works."
Can't say those things Lee?
I can.
i have never been outside the borders of the us and never plan too as i am happy livin right here.my opinion is this right or wrong all citizens should support their gov,question the gov is necessary but support is also necesarry
the american way of live will survive this crisis also no matter what any of us say here that will not change
There is no alternative. In life you either take what is offered or you do without. Life's a bitch and then you die. Go through it whining or play the game. Don't worry though because it'll be over quickly.
You're words are pretty vicious and judgemental for someone who claims that nationalism is not warranted. That same nationalism defends us against tyrants like you. It would seem to me that as soon as I were to abandon my alliances with my country, someone like you would come along and enslave me. I don't think that is gonna happen anytime in the near future.
Oh, by the way, who do you think is going to win the war between Pakistan and India?
The debates over both the war and the USAPATRIOT act (aptly named given what they've pulled off) provide ample evidence for this assertion. Given present climate, my (shortest) response can only be: Fuck Patriotism. If it means mindlessly following a mindless president I don't want any part of it. If questioning the government's surveillance powers mean I'm not being patriotic, then I'm not. And I won't bother claiming that I am. Nor will I waive around a flag that has had it's meaning removed by this junta.
If "supporting the flag," as they say, means turning my back on the freedom to disagree with those in power, then I don't.
Until it means more than supporting government policy, Fuck Patriotism.
-Jim
Pronunciation: 'pA-trE-&-"ti-z&m, chiefly British 'pa-
Function: noun
Date: circa 1726
: love for or devotion to one's country
then perhaps you'd be better described as a collaborator...
Main Entry: col·lab·o·rate
Pronunciation: k&-'la-b&-"rAt
Function: intransitive verb
Inflected Form(s): -rat·ed; -rat·ing
Etymology: Late Latin collaboratus, past participle of collaborare to labor together, from Latin com- + laborare to labor
Date: 1871
1 : to work jointly with others or together especially in an intellectual endeavor
2 : to cooperate with or willingly assist an enemy of one's country and especially an occupying force
3 : to cooperate with an agency or instrumentality with which one is not immediately connected
- col·lab·o·ra·tion /-"la-b&-'rA-sh&n/ noun
- col·lab·o·ra·tive /-'la-b&-"rA-tiv, -b(&-)r&-/ adjective or noun
- col·lab·o·ra·tive·ly /-lE/ adverb
- col·lab·o·ra·tor /-'la-b&-"rA-t&r/ noun
First thing I would do is clean house in the executive branch…change the faces and kill the revolving door policy as well as cut all funding to the military industrial complex and confiscate all their works for a new generation of intelligence
I would immediately stop the militarization of space and proceed to make this a world policy as well as our own countries policy
Stop all nuclear testing and actually do the arms reduction that we keep promising to do but never do as promised…I mean lets face it…if we launch the missiles it is over that much sooner for all of us
I would pull out of the middle east as well as all the other countries and stop all the geo-political greed and maneuvering over oil because fossil fuels are an old story anyway and have been for about 50 years
I would clean house in the patent office and actually start handing out patents to people regardless of whether or not the new ideas influence the current paradigm of the current economical cartel
I would de-centralize banking and put the power of money back into the hands of the people instead of the rich, then I would demand back all the interest that has been paid to the federal reserve over the last 150 years and use it to pay off the national debt and turn us around from a user nation with the excess to a self sustaining nation
I would start using cold fusion, electrogravatics, electromagnetic, and zero-point energy systems that have been sitting on the shelves collecting dust for the last 25 years because those who have really been pulling the strings in the corporate/economic cartel will finally lose their grip on the world’s throat. Then maybe we might actually start healing the planet instead of fucking it all up.
I would disband all the intelligence administrations and then make one oversight intelligence agency that would have branches working under it for all the different needs that we have or may in the future arise yet have it run by the three branches instead of having no oversight at all
I would kill all shadow operations that have been getting funding through the budget or through drugs, arms and the various other ways they make their cash who have been acting outside of the law and the constitution
I would actually order all those paid who are now suing the GOV for being sprayed by agent orange or what ever they were exposed to in Desert Storm and then make legislation that any acts that occur in any similar fashion by the US GOV to be deemed as a crime against humanity and punishable by international law
I would cut funding for half the bullshit we fund and only start it back up again once a oversight committee can watchdog this process and during this time while we wait…how about feeding the hungry and putting the homeless on a rehabilitation program that get them back into society or get them the fuck out…if they WANT to be homeless then let them be countryless too
I would legalize marijuana, keep alcohol legal, and stop taxing the shit out of tobacco because fucking your body up is your god given right. BUT no cars, boats, ships, planes, or any craft whatsoever would operate for any person who would risk the lives of others by driving any of these while under the influence of any of these substances (and others of course pain meds yadda yadda)
I would create a lawsuit oversight organization so people cant sue other people for stupid shit anymore unless it is on the TV courts (do you think you would sue McDonalds for spilling coffee on yourself when the whole world is watching?)
Sorry I got carried away….anyways this is a start to what I would do
Government is not inherrently evil. People are. Which is exactly why we need government. We need rules. It's called civilization.
Now while it's true that human evil carries over into politics, it's a necessary evil. Government doesn't kill people. People kill people.
Without government there is not organizaion. Ever heard the phrase "Divide and conquer"? If we divide ourselves, we've done half the work for our enemies.
And let's not fool ourselves that the boogeyman is in charge. The Grand Order of the Stonecutters get together in their top secret meetings and decide to keep the metric system down, who will win grammys this year, and no electric cars for anyone.
Get real.
Cheers you fricken schizophrenic!
Although I may be a dupe, you'll never get me to readily admit to being crazy.
you just keep that one to yourself, eric. your secret's safe with us.
Dupe:
Pronunciation dup
Definition 1. a gullible person; one who can be readily misled or fooled.
Synonyms gull , gudgeon (2) , pigeon (3) , greenhorn (2) , sucker (2)
Crossref. Syn. fool
Similar Words patsy , boob , fool , sap , chump
Definition 2. someone who is tricked or manipulated into serving the interests of another person, group, or cause.
Example a dupe of the capitalists.
Crossref. Syn. tool , pawn , fool
Similar Words lackey , puppet , pawn , creature , tool , stooge
Related Words butt , mark , target , imbecile , instrument , prey
ps. what intelligence agency eschewing counter-intelligence did u say you worked for again?
However, you readily admit to being psychotic (of or relating to psychosis). The only hope you have is in a few prescription meds and years of therapy.
Main Entry: psy·cho·sis
Pronunciation: sI-'kO-s&s
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural psy·cho·ses /-"sEz/
Etymology: New Latin
Date: 1847
: fundamental mental derangement (as schizophrenia) characterized by defective or lost contact with reality
"Our government may suck, but it is the best government out there. " I say, that sucks! Lets make it better , lets get rid of the unjust in our justice system. Lets not let people forget of our own flaws. Who trained the terrorists? who had concentration camps? who is allowed to lie in court and get away with it? who is allowed to lobby? Who is allowed to take drug money? What country do all other countries follow? But who really cares when we all work at dell, and go to starbucks? And what can I do, I am just a dumb dislexic, who consiquently cant spell (but there are power in numbers). Government reformation cannot take place during war-time, it just does not work. By the way, you see a war on terrorism, and is see world war three. But what do I know, I m different, there must be something wrong with me.
"Our government may suck, but it is the best government out there. " I say, that sucks! Lets make it better , lets get rid of the unjust in our justice system. Lets not let people forget of our own flaws. Who trained the terrorists? who had concentration camps? who is allowed to lie in court and get away with it? who is allowed to lobby? Who is allowed to take drug money? What country do all other countries follow? But who really cares when we all work at dell, and go to starbucks? And what can I do, I am just a dumb dislexic, who consiquently cant spell (but there are power in numbers). Government reformation cannot take place during war-time, it just does not work. By the way, you see a war on terrorism, and is see world war three. But what do I know, I m different, there must be something wrong with me.
Chomsky Compendium Interview From Greek, Spanish and French Press
Could you imagine how the situation would be if the terrorist's attack in the USA had happened during the night, when very few people would be in the WTC? In other words, if there were very few victims, would the American government react in the same way? Up to what point is it influenced by the symbolism of this disaster, the fact that the Pentagon and the Twin Towers were hit?
I doubt that it would have made any difference. It would have been a terrible crime even if the toll had been much smaller. The Pentagon is more than a "symbol," for reasons that need no comment. As for the World Trade Center, we scarcely know what the terrorists had in mind when they bombed it in 1993 and destroyed it last week, but we can be quite confident that it had little to do with such matters as "globalization," or "economic imperialism," or "cultural values," matters that are utterly unfamiliar to bin Laden and his associates and of no concern to them, just as they are, evidently, not concerned by the fact that their atrocities over the years have caused great harm to poor and oppressed people in the Muslim world and elsewhere, again on September 11. Among the immediate victims are Palestinians under military occupation, as they surely must have known. Their concerns are different, and bin Laden, at least, has been eloquent enough in expressing them in many interviews: to overthrow the corrupt and repressive regimes of the Arab world and replace them with properly "Islamic" regimes, to support Muslims in their struggles against "infidels" in Saudi Arabia (which he regards as under US occupation), Chechnya, Bosnia, western China, North Africa, and Southeast Asia; maybe elsewhere.
It is convenient for Western intellectuals to speak of "deeper causes" such as hatred of Western values and progress. That is a useful way to avoid questions about the origin of the bin Laden network itself, and about the practices that lead to anger, fear and desperation throughout the region, and provide a reservoir from which radical Islamicist terrorist cells can sometimes draw. Since the answers to these questions are rather clear, and are inconsistent with preferred doctrine, it is better to dismiss the questions as "superficial" and "insignificant," and to turn to "deeper causes" that are in fact more superficial even insofar as they are relevant.
What do you think the terrorists tried to do or say with the attacks?
I presume no one knows the answer better than the CIA, who helped establish and train the terrorist networks, and has been well acquainted with them since the first time that they turned against their creators, in 1981, when they assassinated President Sadat of Egypt. Or two years later, when one suicide bomber, perhaps with links to the same networks, drove the US military out of Lebanon. And on many occasions since. They have also been quite clear in articulating their goals, particularly bin Laden himself, in many interviews over the past 10 years: to overthrow the corrupt and repressive regimes of the Arab world and replace them with properly "Islamic" regimes, to support Muslims in their struggles against "infidels" in Saudi Arabia (which he regards as under US occupation), Chechnya, Bosnia, western China, North Africa, and Southeast Asia; maybe elsewhere. Their terrorist activities have been very harmful to the poor and oppressed majority, but that is not their concern, and they know that they can draw from the reservoir of desperation, fear, and anger that in significant measure results from US policies, as people of the region, including the most pro-American of them, are well aware.
What did you think of these terrorist attacks? Where they predictible?
The attacks were an atrocious crime against humanity. No one seriously doubts that. That something of this scale and sophistication could take place, no one could have predicted. That includes the world's intelligence agencies, which monitor very closely the activities of the terrorist networks that are presumably responsible. Bear in mind as well that the leading intelligence agencies know a great deal about the terror networks, if only because they helped establish them and observed their criminal activities closely while continuing to provide them with massive aid and training . But although an assault of this nature was surely not anticipated, that some kind of terrorist attack might take place is a surprise to no one who has been paying attention to US policies in the Middle East region.
Did the US «ask for» these attacks? Are they a consequences of American politics?
The attacks are not "consequences" of US policies in any direct sense. But indirectly, of course they are consequences; that is not even controversial. There seems little doubt that the perpetrators come from the terrorist network that has its roots in the mercenary armies that were organized, trained, and armed by the CIA, Pakistani intelligence, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and others (with initiatives from French intelligence too) in order to fight a Holy War against the Russian invaders in Afghanistan. The backgrounds of all of this remain somewhat murky. President Carter's National Security Adviser, Zbigniew Brzezinski, has boasted that he was responsible for drawing the Russians into an "Afghan trap" (his words) by initiating support for Mujahideen fighting the government in mid-1979, six months before the Russian invasion. China and Iran were also apparently active in 1978-79 in similar activities, joining later with the US-centered operation. It is possible that Brzezinski is simply bragging about his brilliance in helping unleash the monster that has been causing havoc around much of the world since, but there may be something to his story. There is no doubt that these operations were underway at an enormous scale from early 1980. And it is not surprising that the CIA and its associates preferred the most extreme radical elements that they could round up from North Africa, Saudi Arabia, and elsewhere, to form the core of their "Afghanis," who were forged into a mercenary army of hundreds of thousands, armed with advanced weapons. These radical Islamists (called "fundamentalists," in much Western commentary) were the most fanatic and dedicated killers. And the "blowback," to borrow the CIA's term, began at once. In 1981, radical Islamists with "Afghani" roots assassinated President Sadat of Egypt, one of the most enthusiastic creators of the "Afghanis". In 1983, a single suicide bomber, possibly with indirect links to the same growing networks, effectively drove the US military out of Lebanon. Since then, particularly in the 1990s, they have spread terror around much of the world. Their great triumph was driving the Russians out of Afghanistan, at enormous cost. The end result was to "destroy a moderate regime and create a fanatical one, from groups recklessly financed by the Americans" (_London Times_ correspondent Simon Jenkins, a specialist on the region; most of the funding was apparently Saudi). "Afghanis" then joined Muslim forces fighting in Chechnya, Bosnia, Kashmir, Western China (themselves veterans of the Chinese-inspired campaigns), the Philippines, and elsewhere. They have carried out murderous terror attacks in the countries where the regimes are their main enemies, Saudi Arabia and Egypt. And in the 1990s, against the United States, which, according to bin Laden and his associates, have been occupying Saudi Arabia much as the Russians occupied Afghanistan, since the US established permanent military bases there. And the US of course is the prime backer of the corrupt and brutal Saudi regime, and others like it in the region -- none of them "Islamist" by the standards of the terrorist monster that was created by the West for its own purposes.
Furthermore, as is common knowledge among anyone who pays attention to the region, the terrorists draw from a reservoir of desperation, anger, and frustration that extends from rich to poor, from secular to radical Islamist. That it is rooted in no small measure in US policies is evident, and constantly articulated to those willing to listen.
As for Mr.Lizard King, how could anybody take a view seriously from a guy how did more drugs to kill a horse and died like Elvis in the bathtub? Are you taking bong hits writing this stuff?
in Washington, D.C., was to cause trouble. Put 50,000
fundamentalist Muslims, angry Arab-Americans, '60s-liberal leftovers and
tie-dyed, 20-something neo-hippies in the same place, and the comedy
potential is too great to pass up.
So on Saturday morning, I parked my car a safe distance away and strolled
toward the Washington Monument. The first thing I noticed was that I had
been the victim of false advertising. This was not a "pro-Palestine"
rally. It was a "Down with Israel and George Bush" rally.
While the throng was thick with banners, very few of them mentioned the
Palestine Authority and none - not one that I saw - mentioned the
Palestinian leader, Yasser Arafat. Instead, most of the messages were
condemnations of Israel and Ariel Sharon. One popular motif was mixing the
Swastika and the Star of David, a gruesome image for anyone but the most
ardent Holocaust denier. And just to make sure the point wasn't missed,
the crowd repeatedly chanted, "Sharon and Hitler are the same, the only
difference is their name."
There was no doubt as to what the crowd was against: the "racist" nation
of Israel and the evil government of America and its terrorist leader,
George W. Bush. But what were these people for? Did they really support
the creation of a new Arab Muslim nation led by Arafat?
To find out, I waded into the crowd with my minidisk recorder and started
asking questions.
To Amanda from Atlanta in the "Free Speech, Free Media" T-shirt, I posed
the question: "Which nongovernment-controlled Arab newspaper is your
favorite?" When she couldn't answer, I pointed out that there aren't any
nongovernment-controlled newspapers in the Arab Muslim world.
"Are you comfortable supporting the cause of a group of people who don't
believe in either free speech or a free press?"
"I, uh, really, uh, that's a good question," was the best she could do.
Then I asked the gay-rights advocate with the "From Stonewall To
Palestine: People Fight Back" sign: "Doesn't it bother you that
virtually all Arab Muslim governments outlaw homosexuality? That most of
the people in this crowd think you should be stoned to death?"
"I hadn't really thought about it," he replied.
And of every woman I met protesting on behalf of a new, Arafat-led nation,
I asked: "Do you really want to see yet another Arab Muslim nation where
women have few if any political rights (Kuwait), are lashed for committing
adultery (United Arab Emirates) or are the victims of female genital
mutilation (Saudi Arabia)?"
Vanessa, a liberal feminist from Michigan, answered this way: "That's
their thing, and I disbelieve [sic] in that, but it's not just there.
Women everywhere are captized [sic]." She went on to tell me that all
Americans are "captized" too, but she wasn't exactly sure by whom.
When I asked Amina and Amira, two female Arab students from George
Washington University, they had a novel response: They refused to
acknowledge that any Arab Muslim nations restrict women's rights. I
pointed out the obvious case of Saudi Arabia - where women cannot leave
their homes without permission and can be beaten for showing too much skin
in public. They all but laughed at me: "Saudi Arabia does not have a
Muslim government," Amira told me.
So the Saudis are, what - Lutherans?
As I worked the crowd, I was tailed by a group of Arab gentlemen who
listened in on several conversations before finally confronting me: "Why
are you asking these questions?"
I told them I wanted to know if the people waving their "free speech/free
press/free love/free Mumia" signs understood that they
were at a rally supporting yet another oppressive, theocratic, dictatorial
regime.
"That's none of our business," said Khalid, a Moroccan living in
Massachusetts. "All I want is for the Palestinians to be free. This
is all about freedom." Before I could crack, "Then they should move to
Israel, the only place in the Mideast where Palestinians can
vote," he interrupted again.
"You know what, America's government isn't the best government in the
world. Do you like everything your government does?"
"Of course I don't always like my government," I told him. "But unlike
Arafat, when I say so, my American government doesn't throw me in jail or
kill me. And my government-approved Imam doesn't write editorials for
government-run newspapers urging Muslims to kill Jews."
"That's not killing Jewish people," Khalid said. "It's liberating
Palestinians."
"So, that's what you call it!" I replied.
The conversation was over. I moved on to another strategy. I put down my
recorder and picked up a large, hand-made sign. It read: "HEROES FOR
PEACE: Gandhi, MLK, Arafat."
It was, I thought, the perfect sign. It was parodying the Palestinian
position, but without the obviousness of, say, "Suicide Bombers for
Peace," a sign that might have earned me a bloody nose.
I took my insult to Dr. King and the nonviolence movement, and I marched
into the heart of the crowd. I waved it, I shook it, I
covered the rally from front to back. I pointed it at black ministers in
the crowd and watched them read it. I stood next to "Down with
Israel" signs and held it high. And I waited.
When would someone challenge this obnoxious argument? After half an hour,
someone finally spoke up. A plump, middle-aged liberal with her "Visualize
World Peace" button read my sign, then looked up at me and smiled. "God
bless you," she said.
No, I thought as I walked dejectedly back to my car, God help us.
We're gonna need it.
I do believe that September 11 was set up by the government, but I also know why they did it. Everyone should do a little research on the subject. Maybe you may find some excellent reading out there and get a little education. It may change the world.
Now tell me If you found the world's FINAL & LARGEST energy resource and knew it could sustain the world's population longer than the dying oil supply we have now. And you didn't want a dictatorship getting their hands on it. And you knew that the timing of acquiring this oil would save millions of lives. And getting this hydrocarbon resource meant saving billions of poeple on the planet, yes, billions.
Would you:
Not saying I don't admire your voices, I'm usually with you, but your way wrong buddy, you need to do more research, and then have a moment to think it through.
Billions of people could die without the stable energy flow that the earth has been providing them, billions.
If they came straight out and told the american public what you just said, if that's true (sic), then they would cry for alternative energy resources. The means are out there, and it's no justification for starting wars that would probably screw the world even more, and cause more violent backlash.
Just a quick word while I'm at work...
we have burned over 70% of the world's fossil fuels - thus the struggle and wars over those that remain
20% of the worlds population has been responsible for the burning of that previously mentioned 70% of the world's fossil fuels
abother 40% of the worlds population is projected to start begining to burn the last of the 30% of the world's fossil fuels
that is 60% of the worlds population burning the last 30% of the world's fossil fuels (for you idiots out there) by the year 2010
research all you want...just dont forget to do the math
let me reach a point here for a moment and try to explain WHY this is happening
MONEY
oil costs money and the law of supply and demand dictates that the less oil there is the more it will cost, put that in the equation and with who controls the oil and you will see the same faces that have been there since the 40s (the same families anyways) along with a payoff to those that helped them aquire that claim in the geo-political arena (the Bush family?)
now there have been many "free energy" devices created in the last 50 years that could have ended this cricic well before it began including cold fusion which was substantiated at MIT before it was covered up and erased from existence in the public eye. There have been free energy devices that have even recently been allowed patends (which is now buried in lawsuites for the next 10 years...i mean hey it is free energy and could save the world but fuck it if we cant do it without being suspicious of breaking the law God forbid, which of course never happened this is just another way of removing it from the public eye, but my point is those parties who would be interested you would think, would not be the ones who are supressing it right?) which is almost astonishing since the patend office is about as corrupt as the anything else which revolves around money (not in just this county but all countries)
I wont even get into the Zero Point Energy because half of you flag waving retards cant even get past the fact that your own government would screw you over something as simple as money...much less all the other things that have been hidden from you in the name of national security
bottom line...we will squeeze the last bit of oil out of this planet making the rich far more richer to the last drop then they will swoop in and save the world with thier stolen technology that has been surpressed for the last 50 years and proclaim themselves your savior
and you will no doubt believe them
because God Dammit you a fucking patriot and you have serverd your country...and your country serves you and well hell...thats just the way it is supposed to work
as for me...who am I when I say I am beign victimized by a facist government
I am a communist, or a gook, or a jap...oh thats right...the PC term is Terrorist now isnt it?
fuck em all...this is all a onging joke
I am not laughing because it is funny...only because it is working...you bunch of retards
It seems you have a bad case of "conspiracitis". Go sell your half-baked science to some other crowd that hasn't received a fundamental scientific education from Standford, Berkeley, or another highly regarded institution.
you laugh? ha ha ha, it's real funny to you, isn't it? you aren't on the side of THE LORD? hmmm ... we will see just who is laughing, come JUDGEMENT DAY.
I'm not sure what you are suggesting. The "cold fusion" reasearch was done at Stanford, yet most physicists who have looked at the data (including other researchers from Stanford), and others who have repeated the experiments doubt that cold fusion is the process at work.
So are you conteneding that Stanford the being bribed to support or denounce cold fusion?
http://www.buzzflash.com/?
http://www.fromthewilderness.com/
http://globalresearch.ca/
http://www.consortiumnews.com/?
http://www.cursor.org/?
http://www.bushoccupation.com/
http://ens-news.com/
http://www.mediawhoresonline.com/
http://www.motherjones.com/?
http://www.onlinejournal.com/?
http://www.robotwisdom.com/
http://www.tenc.net/
http://www.narconews.com/
http://www.truthout.com/?
http://www.unansweredquestions.org/
but I know that some of those institutions and their science departments are sponsored by petrol companies, and research which is against their best interests is usually suppressed or misinformed.
Just a thought... feel free to tear my assumptions apart, I'd like to hear people's thoughts on this. I got the info from NO LOGO by Naomi Klein, book about globalisation and corporate misbehaviours. Oil companies go hand in hand with politics...
An Open Letter to the Signatories of a Statement in Favor of American Aggression
By Mahmood Delkhasteh and Simone Wright
When sixty American intellectuals signed their names to a letter entitled 'what we are fighting for,' published by the Institute for American Values, some readers hoped to hear a voice of reason, some alternative to the American government's newest foreign policies following Bush's invention of an 'axis of evil' in his union address. Instead they found that these intellectuals not only neglected to formulate alternatives to these aggressive strategies, but in fact gave the US administration their total support for the 'war against terrorism.' Many of the academics who signed this letter -Huntington, Fukuyama, Etzioni, Skocpol - are considered 'public intellectuals' in the United States, and are held in high regard as examples of how prominent individuals can combine intellectual and political activity. All of them, have, however, at the very least utterly failed to fulfill this important responsibility by signing this letter. For what is an intellectual if not someone who produces real alternatives to the current state of affairs and to official policies which have created the disastrous status quo at first place?
The signatories of this letter have not only failed to fulfill their social responsibilities in this regard. Despite their many references to human rights, they have also exposed their fundamental lack of faith in the universality of human rights by refusing to condemn the violation of human rights of those who must suffer in what they call a 'just war.' This basic hypocrisy raises doubts about whether these academics should be seen as intellectuals after all. Jean Paul Sartre once wrote that the world, seen from the perspective of the western ruling class, is divided into half a billion citizens and one and half billion indigenous people. The explanation of 'why we are fighting' unfortunately demonstrates that this world view is still very much alive and kicking; the only difference being that though the number of citizens, or those with the power to interpret the world, has remained constant while the number of indigenous has quadrupled. This letter fails to address the grievances of people exhausted by oppression; it fails to argue, propose and advocate the adoption of socio-economical and political policies which aim at tackling the causes of terrorism by reducing the ever-increasing level of world poverty. In fails to challenge discriminatory political and social policies in concrete terms.
The most striking disappointment of the letter is the signatories' total failure contextualize the heinous terrorist acts of September 11th within the realities of America's discriminatorily foreign policy in the Middle East. They have instead actively followed the dominant discourse of the government and media, which deliberately isolates the two issues.
The most shocking oversight of this letter is that its signatories fail to question the sincerity of the American government's mission to 'fight terrorism,' even though it is obvious that the goals and means of this so-called war on terrorism are completely incompatible. This is naive, at best. One does not need to be an expert in politics, terrorism, or revolution (as many of the people are) to realize that the war against terrorism does not require a a staggering annual budget of $380 billion, or to know that spending $10 billion to inseminate lies into the media is not aimed at fighting terrorism, but at manipulating public opinion into supporting the idea. It does not take an expert analyst to realize that the US government, devoid of real solutions to the chronic and worsening socio-economical problems of American society, has used the war to legitimize and detract attention away from itself. It has every interest in continuing to do so. No wonder there is so little public debate that addresses the actual context and causes of terrorism within and against the US today.
We cannot defend freedoms by suppressing them, nor can we defend human rights by violating them. The American government has aggressively violated many rights of many humans in its war against terrorism. This is most clearly illustrated by its treatment of its prisoners of war in Guantanamo Bay. Despite a public outcry against their brutal treatment and arguments by scores of international human rights organizations and the International Red Cross that these detainees are prisoners of war, the American government has stubbornly defined them as criminals. Even if, for the sake of argument, we assume that these prisoners are criminals, according to the American legal maxim of 'innocent until proven guilty,' they are innocent and should receive treatment in accordance with their human dignity. Shackling them, shaving their beards and keeping them in open cages is in total violation of their human and legal rights. The American legal code is based on a belief that no human being should ever be treated in such an inhumane manner, no matter what the crime is. But perhaps this code is meant only for Americans? If so, then we should not talk about civilizing codes of behaviour. Europe knows this, and has declared its condemnation of the inhumane treatment of prisoners at the Cuba camp. The signatories of this letter claim to believe in the universality of human rights. Why should we not wonder about the sincerity of their claims?
Perhaps their belief is based on the traditional American ideology of human rights, which is in essence a discriminatory understanding of both human and right because it holds double standards for Americans and 'others.' The signatories of this letter claim that to become American is easy; that 'people from everywhere in the world come to our country with what a statue in New York's harbor calls a yearning to breathe free, and soon enough, they are Americans...'. True, if we define the act of becoming American solely by receiving a work permit and an American passport. There is, however, another side of the coin which the signatories have failed to point out: it is also easy to become non-American and to be stripped off of the rights which American citizens are allegedly entitled to. Within hours after the terrorist attacks on September 11, almost the entire Moslem population of America became suspect. Within days, hundreds of Moslems were illegally arrested, thousands were attacked and millions began to live with fear in the land of freedom. Overt discrimination against anyone with a Moslem name or even a Middle Eastern look became justifiable. This rampant discrimination has also infected academic institutions across America, and it is hard to imagine how the signatories of this letter can fail to see that American citizens of Middle Eastern descent - and those who advocate for their rights - are facing widespread injustices regarding scholarships, loan, and intellectual freedom.
Perhaps the most disturbing aspect of this letter is that its signatories consciously legitimize the murder of innocents, so long as it is accompanied by the murder of combatants. They argue that 'within strict limits, it can be morally justifiable to undertake military actions that may result in the unintended but foreseeable death or injury of some non-combatants.' In practice, this translates into a green light for the murder of innocent people. Here again we observe that despite their claim to struggle for justice, the signatories do not believe in the universality of human rights. Such a statement indicates that they are far more faithful to the principle that the "goal justifies the means". This principle, however, is in total violation of the spirit and principle of the sanctity of human life. It also reveals that power, and not freedom, form the core of their guiding principles. We must ask, in light of Satre's argument about the world of 'men' [sic] and 'others,' whether any of the signatories would support the bombing and killing of American citizens (inside or outside of America) if a few suspected terrorists hiding among them could also being killed? Would they call the massacre of Americans as justifiable 'collateral damage'?
When these signatories give their total support to government in its war against terrorism, they also support new draconian legislation that emerged in the wake of 11 September to provide the government with legal means to fight terrorism, such as the 'Patriot Act' and a slew of other ad hoc rulings. It is well known that these laws were ratified in order to increase security at the price of liming citizens' freedoms. The articles of universal human rights, however, were written to be in harmony with one another. There is no zero-sum relation between them, and the extension of one right does not contradict the others. In other words, we should be able to see all human rights within any single right, as they are intertwined expressions of the total right of the total human. To prioritize one right over another, or invoke it at the expense of others, is nothing but sophistry - the very same sophistry which authoritarian and totalitarian states have always used in order to legitimize the oppression.
The language of this letter is eclectic and ambiguous. Criticisms of American foreign policy or negative aspects of the American way of life are clouded in ambiguous and non-committal terms. This not only allows for multiple interpretations; furthermore, it does not define who is responsible for carrying out this commitment, or what resources they can draw on to do so. There is only the pledge of sixty 'intellectuals.' However, when it comes to supporting the government in its war against terrorism, the writing becomes vivid, clear and uncompromising. Most importantly, it names a specific guarantor for carrying out these policies: the American state, a state that boasts of the strongest military and economical might in the world.
If the signatories of this proposition really want to propose effective ways to combat terrorism, they must not support the American government's line on terrorism. They, as intellectuals, could focus on analyzing the causes of terrorism today. They could try to communicate this with the American people. They could explain the context in which terrorism emerges and spreads: the consequences of domination and exploitation; the fact that small islands of affluence are surrounded by vast seas of poverty; the endless perpetuation of discrimination and despotism. They could argue that the dictatorship of capital in the form of multi-nationals and the failure of western democracies to control the incursion of these institutions into less powerful nations has meant that the common people of these countries have effectively lost control over their natural and human resources. In another word, they could argue that terrorism is a blind and hateful reaction to a type of relation, dominant in our world today, which produces great inequalities between people, which divides the world into dominator and dominated, and which leaves the latter with, as Fanon argues, nothing more than their rage.
It is misleading for these intellectuals to explain the contemporary anger among non- western people against the American government by resorting to theories such as the 'clash of civilizations.' Civilizations do not clash but interact, exchanging knowledge and information. It is only the uncivilized elements of civilizations that clash with each other. Neither does it make sense to attribute this anger to the envy of the poor because, if the information about the terrorists is correct, they were all from well-off families. Both explanations discredited, what is left? Only to make suggestions for how America could move out of its hegemonic position and make a real attempt to remove world poverty and set an example for the democratization of the world. It would, of course, be difficult to make such a proposal. It is much easier to support sending planes and to massacre innocent people in the Islamic world, praising those within it who also support this, and condemning as terrorist-lovers those who do not.
At the moment it is easy to win popular support for this populist position since most Americans, deprived of hearing the truth about their country's foreign policy, support such actions. Sooner or later, though, the war will be over, and the people will know that they have been betrayed not only by their government, media and institutions, but by the very intellectuals whose legitimacy was based on the values of freedom. Because more than any other time in America's history, the main casualty of this war against terrorism has been the very freedom which the government is waging a war to defend. Someday, when the hysteria has died down, the signatories of this letter will be called on to answer for and justify their position, both to themselves and to the general public, when it emerges that they have dismantled all the institutions which were designed to defend and extend human freedom - most importantly, the institution of the critical American intellectual. They would be wise now to reconsider what it is they are really fighting for, and what, in the end, is worth it.
Mahmood Delkhasteh and Simone Wright are working on their doctorates in sociology at the London School of Economics. They can be reached at: M.Delkhasteh [at] lse.ac.uk
Former Senior CIA Officer:
Why the "War on Terror" Won't Work
By Bill Christison
Bill Christison joined the CIA in 1950, and served on the analysis side of the Agency for 28 years. From the early 1970s he served as National Intelligence Officer (principal adviser to the Director of Central Intelligence on certain areas) for, at various times, Southeast Asia, South Asia and Africa. Before he retired in 1979 he was Director of the CIA's Office of Regional and Political Analysis, a 250-person unit.. These remarks, which he has made available to CounterPunch, have been recently delivered to various peace groups in New Mexico. His wife Kathy also worked in the CIA, retiring in 1979.Since then she has been mainly preoccupied by the issue of Palestine.
On January 15 the Attorney General of the United States, John Ashcroft, held a press conference in order to describe the initial criminal charges that the government would make against John Walker, the 20-year-old American citizen who had joined the Taliban military forces. In his talk, Ashcroft said this, and I quote: "The United States does not casually or capriciously charge one of its own citizens with providing support to terrorists. We are impelled to do so today by the inescapable fact of September the 11th, a day that reminded us in no uncertain terms that we have enemies in the world and that these enemies seek to destroy us. We learned on September 11 that our way of life is not immune from attack, and even from destruction."
The guts of what Ashcroft said is and I quote again "We have enemies in the world and these enemies seek to destroy us." Unquote. I submit to you that this is simply not a true statement. The evidence I've seen shows that the real objective of the Muslim extremists led by Osama bin Laden was to rid the Muslim world itself of American domination and influence. They wanted NOT to destroy the United States; rather they wanted the U.S. out of their own land. Bin Laden and his supporters also wanted, and those yet alive still want, to unite Muslim nations behind an extreme version of Islam, believing that the Islamic world can thereby better control its own future. I think they realize full well there is no possibility they can "destroy " the United States, and their objective, while still pretty grandiose, is considerably more limited. Their aim, according to one recent analysis that appeared in the New York Review of Books and I quote again "is to create one Islamic world. .This is a call to purify the Islamic world of the idolatrous West, exemplified by America. The aim is to strike at American heathen shrines, and show, in the most spectacular fashion, that the U.S. is vulnerable, a paper tiger" Unquote.
These Islamic extremists are not nice people. Those still alive, and other future adherents to their cause, will continue to try to kill innocent people in the U.S. and elsewhere. But what the extremists see themselves as trying to do is to stop the United States from continuing its drive for global hegemony, including hegemony over the Islamic world. I think it's important to understand this, because if people in the United States believe that some enemy is trying to "destroy" the U.S. and actually has some possibility of doing so then waging an all-out war against that enemy can be more easily justified. But what if the U.S. is not trying to prevent its own destruction, but instead is trying to preserve and extend its global hegemony? In that case, I think we should all step back and start demanding of our government a serious public debate over future U.S. foreign policies. We should be strenuously debating the degree to which the people in this country, given all of our own domestic problems, want the U.S. government to continue foreign policies intended to strengthen U.S. hegemony over and domination of the rest of the world in the political, economic, and militarily areas.
In short, Ashcroft's claim that enemies are seeking to destroy the United States makes it easier for the U.S. government to avoid any limits that might otherwise be imposed on its "war against terrorism" by an informed public opinion. President George W. Bush's references in his own speeches to America's enemies as "the evil ones" tend in the same direction. Although acts of terrorism which I'm defining here as killings of, or other violence against, innocent noncombatants are always inexcusable, simply labeling perpetrators as "the evil ones" makes it easier for the U.S. government to avoid any inconvenient discussion of ways in which the U.S. might modify its foreign policies to reduce the likelihood of future terrorist acts. But are all Afghans "evil ones?" Or all members of the Taliban? Or did only a few Taliban leaders know about the planned terrorist attacks before September 11? In any case, is it clear that all Taliban members were accomplices of Al Qaeda and Osama bin Laden? And if they were accomplices, is it not true that the better legal systems of the world do not punish accomplices to a crime as severely as the criminals themselves? Is it right that in this war the U.S. is punishing the accomplices just as much the criminals themselves? It seems to me that the use of the term "evil ones" is intended to avoid discussion of a lot of nuances.
My own view is that the United States is now, almost five months after September 11, heading into an extraordinarily difficult time, when substantial changes in our foreign policies will be required. Yet all the polls seem to show that up to 90 percent of the people in this country still don't even want to listen to anyone who proposes alternatives to our present foreign policies. So I guess that shows that only ten percent of Americans care much about our policies toward the rest of the world. But I'll bet that in this room right now, a much higher proportion of you do care about the rest of the world and do want to see changes in our foreign policies
The first and most basic belief I have about the current situation is that military action will never be effective in solving the problem of terrorism against the United States. At best it will only prevent terrorism temporarily. As I've already mentioned, there's little doubt that the U.S. will somehow kill or capture or otherwise neutralize Osama bin Laden and most of his lieutenants. The U.S. has already pretty much pulverized Afghanistan by bombing, and has incidentally killed an unknown number of innocent noncombatants in the process. The U.S. government, by the way, seems uninterested in even estimating how many innocent noncombatants have in fact been killed, but it is possible that the number is as large as or larger than the 3,000 killed in the U.S. on September 11. Whatever the military success of the U.S., however, a couple of years hence new extremists just as clever as bin Laden, and hating the U.S. even more, will almost certainly arise somewhere else in the world. That's why we need to understand the root causes behind the terrorism. If I am right that military action will not prevent future terrorism, but only delay it, we should start working on these root causes right away. We should not wait until the military actions are finished before looking at root causes, as some people would urge us to do.
So let's go. I'm going to list six major root causes of the terrorism that I think are important. Either Kathy of I will make some comments on each one and then propose how we should change our foreign policy on each. The critical thing you should keep in mind on all of these six issues is that there is a great deal of disagreement in Washington and elsewhere over the relative importance of one compared to another. With that caveat, here are the six root causes of terrorism against the U.S. that we've chosen to talk about. I've arranged them in a rough order that starts with those I think are most difficult to deal with, but the order does not necessarily reflect their relative importance. My personal feeling is that all six are of equal importance.
ONE: My number one root cause is the support by the U.S. over recent years for the policies of Israel with respect to the Palestinians, and the belief among Arabs and Muslims that the United States is as much to blame as Israel itself for the continuing, almost 35-year-long Israeli occupation of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.
My first comment on this issue is that it is a more controversial root cause than any of the others on our list. The government of Israel, and many supporters of Israel in the United States, really did not want to talk about any root causes immediately after September 11. Top leaders in the United States, most of whom strongly support Israel, preferred to talk only in general terms about how the terrorists were mad and irrational, and how they had attacked "freedom itself," out of mindless hatred. More recently, when pressured to talk about root causes at all, the Israelis and their supporters have gone to great lengths to reject arguments that Israel's behavior toward the Palestinians, or U.S. support for Israel, are in any way even a partial cause of the terrorism. When forced to say something positive about root causes, they tend to allege a broader Islamic religious hatred of the West and its modern technology than I think exists. They also emphasize the internal tensions within the Arab world, the lack of democracy and the dictatorial rulers of Arab nations, who are depicted as trying to distract their people from their own internal grievances by whipping up hatred of Israel.
I need to digress for a moment. In a situation where there are clearly multiple root causes of terrorism, it's in the interest of any person or nation that might be blamed for one of the root causes to emphasize instead the other root causes. In the last couple of months, a sizable propaganda campaign has been launched suggesting that Saudi Arabia is the most important root cause of the September 11 terrorism. I certainly agree that the dictatorial and decrepit Saudi government and its support throughout the Muslim world for a harsh and immoderate version of Islam can be seen as one but only one of the root causes behind the recent terrorism. I'll have more to say about this later. What I want to point out here is that I suspect supporters of Israel are aggressively pressing this campaign against Saudi Arabia, in the hope of persuading other world leaders that the issue of Palestine is NOT a significant root cause. The New York Times columnist Thomas Friedman is a leading practitioner of this pro-Israel campaign. Both Kathy and I believe, however, that the United States' strong support for Israel and for its occupation and colonization of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip is indeed is a major root cause of the terrorism against the U.S.
After I go through the rest of the root causes, Kathy is going to talk in much more detail about the Israel-Palestine issue and its tragic consequences. Kathy will also give you her thoughts on changes in U.S. foreign policy that might be necessary if the U.S. does in fact desire a peaceful resolution of this issue a resolution that would also help to reduce the likelihood of future terrorism against the U.S.
TWO: My number two root cause is the present drive of the United States to spread its hegemony and its version of big-corporation, free enterprise globalization around the world. At the same time, the massive poverty of average people, not only in Arab and Muslim nations but also in the whole third world, has become more important as a global political issue. The gap between rich and poor nations, and rich and poor people within most of the nations, has grown wider during the last 20 years of globalization or, more precisely, the U.S. version of globalization. Animosities against the United States have grown among the poor of the world, who have watched as the U.S. has expanded both its hegemony and a type of globalization based on its own economic system, while they themselves have seen no or very little benefit from these changes.
This problem of poverty around the world is so immense that it's almost impossible to grasp. Global statistics are far from perfect, buy they show that the world's population hit 6 billion last year. 2.8 billion people, almost half of the world's total, have incomes of less than two dollars a day. Here's another statistic: the richest one percent of the world's people receive as much income as the poorest 57 percent. And here's a final statistic: The richest 25 million people in the United States receive more income than the 2 billion poorest people of the world one third of the world's total population. Can we here, sitting in this room, even comprehend the magnitude of the injustice that these figures represent? And have no doubt we in the United States are, rightly or wrongly, blamed for these figures.
The catalog of reasons for animosity toward the U.S. throughout the world includes a number of things in addition to our overbearing assertion of both economic and political hegemony: our arrogance in insisting that whatever we say goes, our penchant for abrogating or ignoring international treaties that we don't happen to like, as well as the influence of U.S. corporations that exploit cheap labor in third world countries to make consumer goods for Americans, Take all these things together and you have a wide sense among the poor people of the world of being oppressed by the United States. This in turn made it possible for Osama bin Laden and the fundamentalists around him to instill and spread intense hatred of us, just as a sense of being oppressed by the Allies after World War I made it possible for Hitler to arouse the kind of fear and hatred among Germans that led both to the slaughter of Jews and to World War II.
The pressures arising from the complex and related problems of U.S. hegemony, globalization and the immense gap in wealth will grow steadily more explosive. My proposal is that the U.S. should immediately develop and implement, with active participation of the U.N. and the European Union (E.U.), a new, very large, and long-term "Marshall Plan" type of aid program for all of the poor nations of the world. This plan should specifically be aimed at reducing the size of the income gap between the poorest and richest nations, and at reducing the income gap between the rich and poor within nations. This type of plan could contribute significantly to reducing the likelihood of future terrorism against the United States. It would also show a far more generous side of the United States to people who at present see only a U.S. version of globalization that seems to them highly selfish and beneficial largely to big corporations and the rich of the world.
I've been talking about a massive aid program for the world's poor since last October, when I spoke to a number of peace groups in Santa Fe. More recently, the British Chancellor of the Exchequer, Gordon Brown, has proposed a similar plan, in the amount of $100 billion for each of the next four years. My own suggestion as to the amount is $350 billion spread over three years. $350 billion is, after all, just about what the U.S. military budget will probably amount to in the next ONE fiscal year. One would think that we could find an equal amount to spend over a three-year period for what I would regard as a better purpose.
About now some of you are probably thinking, how unrealistic can this guy get! He of all people meaning me should be aware of how corrupt the governments of most third-world nations are, and you can just see all this money simply going down the drain. My answer is that solving the problem of massive income inequalities around the world is absolutely critical to the future stability of the world, and so far the U.S. version of globalization has not improved the situation at all. I think there are enough intelligent people in the U.N., U.S., Europe, and the underdeveloped countries themselves that we could set up a planning and monitoring group to oversee the wise use of such large funds and to hold the level of corruption to a minimum. The United States should not run such a program unilaterally, and the institutions set up to manage it should not be used to perpetuate and strengthen U.S. global hegemony, as the case now with the International Monetary Fund and the World Bank. When you hear charges of unrealism before some new program is even in the detailed planning stages, I think you're entitled to ask if those making the charges aren't really opposing the new program for some other reason. My own feeling is that the world is in such a mess, and the inequality problem is so severe, that maybe we should worry less about alleged "unrealism" and more about getting on with the business of planning, followed by real action, to do something about the problem.
THREE: The number three root cause I want to discuss is the continuing sanctions and lack of food and medicines for the people of Iraq, deaths of Iraqi children, and the almost daily bombing of Iraq by the U.S. and Great Britain. Right or wrong, the Arab and Muslim "street" blames this on the U.S., not on Saddam Hussein.
I don't have much to comment about on this one. The sanctions and the bombings have been in effect for ten years, and have neither brought about the ouster of Saddam Hussein nor significantly weakened him. And they have caused the deaths of children variously estimated at up to or over a million. The U.S. government's position is that Saddam himself is to blame for the troubles of the Iraqi people, but the fact remains that after all these years, the Iraqi people are the ones hurt by U.S. actions, not Saddam.
My view is that simple justice argues for an end to both the sanctions and the bombings. My proposal is that we do precisely that.
FOUR: My number four root cause is the continued presence of U.S. troops in Saudi Arabia.
Ten years ago this was the principal cause of Osama bin Laden's hostility toward the United States. (His hostility on account of U.S. actions against Iraq and then the massive U.S. support for Israel came later and in both cases may be tactical an effort to broaden his own popularity in the Arab world.) Today the thousands of U.S. military personnel in Saudi Arabia are a constant irritant in Saudi-U.S. relations. The Saudi people clearly do not want them there. Unless we plan to invade Iraq again, I doubt there is any longer a vital reason to keep men and U.S. ground-based military facilities there.
My proposal? The obvious one that we remove the troops. I understand, of course you'd have to be blind and deaf not to know this that some people at high levels in the U.S. government do want to invade Iraq again. All I can say is, I hope such people do not carry the day. I can't think of a thing that would do more to broaden this "war on terrorism" into a Judeo-Christian war against Islam despite any U.S. governmental protestations to the contrary.
FIVE: The fifth root cause on my list is the dissatisfaction and anger of many average and even elite Arabs and Muslims over their own authoritarian, undemocratic, and often corrupt governments, which are supported by the United States.
My first comment here is that Osama bin Laden is a good example of this particular root cause. His extremist wrath was directed as much against the Saudi government, for example, as it was against the United States. His opposition to what used to be his own government was probably the main reason why he had the support of a majority of the young men under 25 in Saudi Arabia. He received similar support from many young men in other Arab and Muslim states as well. Right now these groups of angry young men obviously no longer have a viable leader in Osama bin Laden, but other extremist leaders are almost sure to arise. In addition, the next generation of leaders in at least some of these states may well emerge from among these young men. If any of them do come into power, their future governments will likely be more anti-American than the present governments, which Washington likes to call "moderate," but which are really nothing of the sort. If we have not reduced our energy dependence on oil in the meantime, we may face serious trouble.
In my view, this IS a truly difficult problem. My proposal is that we should adopt draconian measures immediately to reduce our overall energy usage, including but not limited to cutting our dependence on Mideast oil. We should, for example, change our tax structure to make energy as expensive to consumers in the United States as it is in Europe and Japan. This will require significant life-style changes in the U.S. I think we kid ourselves if we believe that we can solve any coming energy crunch by expanding alternative power sources or by increasing "clean coal" usage, nuclear power usage, and Alaskan oil usage. The shortages will be too great; so will the long-term environmental costs; and so will the political costs in our relationships with other nations that have already accepted higher energy prices for consumers as a necessary burden of 21st Century life.
We also should not count on new oil supplies from Central Asia allowing us to forget about the need for conservation and to stop being concerned about the stability of Saudi Arabia or other areas of the Middle East. Even assuming that massive supplies of oil from Central Asia become available quickly, all we'll be doing is transferring our support from the dictatorships of Saudi Arabia and the Gulf States to the dictatorships of Central Asia. That is not a prospect that we should blithely accept. In my view, conservation is the route we must follow.
I think we should, at the same time, gradually reduce the closeness of our ties with the present authoritarian governments in Arab and Muslim states, and try to develop a better understanding of and improved relations with groups in these states that oppose their own present governments. We should seek out groups that appear to be democratically inclined and "moderate" in the true meaning of the word. Difficult? Of course it will be. But it is the best shot we've got, in my opinion, to have a decent relationship with many Muslim states in the future. It's also the best shot we've got if we wish to diminish, over time, the support for future Osama bin Ladens that arises from the anger of Arabs and Muslims with their own governments.
SIX. The sixth and last root cause on my list arises directly from the U.S. "war on terrorism." It has to do with the kind of war the U.S. is now able to fight. On three recent occasions the Gulf War of 1990-1991, the Kosovo war of 1999 against Yugoslavia, and the current war against Afghanistan the United States has easily achieved victories by relying almost exclusively on air power, on missiles launched from a great distance, and now even on drone aircraft with no humans on board. The U.S. has won these wars with practically no casualties among its own forces. But while few Americans get killed, sizable numbers of other nationalities do.
Most people in the United States are proud both of these victories and of the low U.S. casualties in these three wars. From the viewpoint of anyone who supports the wars, this prowess of U.S. armed forces deserves to be honored. But elsewhere in much of the world, especially the underdeveloped world, this overwhelming invincibility of the U.S. military intensifies the frustrations about and hatred of the United States. This in turn makes future terrorist acts against the U.S. or what is now called by U.S. strategic thinkers asymmetrical warfare even more likely. Those in underdeveloped lands who oppose the U.S. drive for worldwide hegemony are increasingly coming to see no means other than terrorism as an effective method of opposing the United States.
This is an issue that demands a lot more discussion than it's been getting, and it goes to the heart of our future foreign policies. For the immediate future, perhaps the next five or ten years, it's going to be tempting for any government of the United States to implement and enforce whatever foreign policies it chooses by going to war, because it will be confident - even overconfident - that it won't lose a military confrontation and won't suffer many casualties. The U.S. government in fact has already started moving in this direction, by threatening to launch preemptive wars against nations that are trying to develop nuclear weapons or other weapons of mass destruction. Another thing the U.S. is already doing is to militarize the United States to an unprecedented, and wholly unnecessary, degree in comparison with other nations. An editorial in the March 3 New York Times puts it bluntly. "If Congress cranks up the Pentagon's budget as much as President Bush would like, the United States will soon be spending more on defense than all the other countries of the world combined." To me, this is absurd - but there you are. These military expenditures will clearly lead to cuts in spending on domestic U.S. problems such as poverty and healthcare, and make it harder to do anything about solving the problems of global poverty and income inequality that I've already discussed. In this same five to ten year period, the readily available military option will also encourage the U.S. to avoid facing up to the hard decisions necessary for a peaceful resolution of our more intractable foreign policy problems.
This leads me to a very important conclusion. Since the greater willingness to initiate and fight wars intensifies hatred of the U.S., it is in the U.S. interest to show restraint and voluntarily stop employing warfare based on bombing in order to combat future acts of terrorism. The fact that U.S. bombs and missiles have already killed innocent civilians is tragic and puts us on a par with the extremists who committed the September 11 acts. The U.S. should stop, right now, all further military action that risks killing more civilians.
At the same time, I want to emphasize that I am quite sure there is enough evidence of Osama bin Laden's complicity in the September 11 terrorist actions to arrest and indict him. Assuming he is still alive, I would therefore support covert or Green-Beret-type operations to capture, but not assassinate, him. Maximum precautions should be taken, however, to prevent such operations from killing or injuring any more innocent civilians. Once captured, bin Laden should be prosecuted and tried in an international court.
I fully understand that compared to most views you hear concerning the U.S. "war on terrorism," my views are RADICAL. But I believe that unless the U.S. moves in the directions I've been suggesting throughout this talk, in five or ten years the terrorism against the United States will become so intense that our global relationships with other nations will be in shambles. On the other hand, if the U.S. government voluntarily moves toward the kind of foreign policy changes I've been talking about, I think that its actions might start a trend toward a considerably more peaceful, and stable, 21st Century than now seems likely.
In fact that’s the core of what religion really is. Mans answer to questions who’s answers are beyond his reach. In essence religion gives comfort to those who seek immortality or who are afraid of death or nonexisitence. The main focus on most of the worlds religions are on these two subjects…escaping death and or the promises of immortality or eternity or what ever you would like to call it. This does not mean I find no value in religion nor am I an atheist. Yet I do believe we have it all wrong and the truth behind what happens after death and or how the whole “spirituality” process works is very much beyond our present comprehension, I believe it is much bigger then we think, and a hell of a lot more interesting. This doesn’t mean we should stop trying though. I am one of those people who think that our technological knowledge which has advanced so rapidly in the last 100 years, has caused an unbalance in perspective to our spiritual awareness. I think that had we progressed equally technologically as well as spiritually that we would not be in this mess that we find ourselves in as a species at all. Yet here we are approaching our own extinction and some of us are blind to it, while the others are aware and uncaring. Unfortunately it is those that are of the uncaring type that tend to rise to any state of power in our society because of the Darwinian nature of our world society. Only those who are willing to lie, cheat, and steal really have a chance at making a difference on such a level that can inspire change for the better. Catch 22.
My point is that this search for answers to the fears that have haunted mankind has been used as a tool in the past for control and for justification to do terrible things by these people. The inquisition, crusades, and the holocaust are just examples of the most recent tragedies executed in the name of religion. All were political tools used against an enemy who’s demise was needed for certain political gains as well as a means for political and religious control or simply the removal of a threat as in the case of the many inquisitions. As far as the Pledge of allegiance, if memory serves wasn’t that phrase (under God) put in the pledge in 1954? Will it’s extraction truly be a nail that will crucify religion once and for all ending it’s availability to a public that will continue to search for it? I think not. Or is all this religion talk about the pleadge just another drop in the bucket of many other controversial decisions that have come out of the same court over and over in the past years. Decisions that will no doubt be reversed just as has the other 80 some odd percent of the other decisions that have come out of the same court room. To be honest I don’t know…nor do I care, if in fact God is all powerful he will make himself known despite the pledge of allegiance. The impact of it is a fire cracker going off amidst all the land mines and other bombs that are going off currently in the world arena. An arena in which religion is present and even prevalent, yet again used as a tool for control and the justification for atrocities that is once again marring mankind’s history once again. Yet is religion a focus. I think not as it would be too dangerous to make it a focus because religion promotes peace not war.
As far as my statements on free energy. Well of course there is no free energy. I am not uneducated in Newtonian thinking. Yet had you done any reading or even looked up the term “free energy” on the net before you spouted off a deluge of debunking rhetoric, you would have found that the term “free energy” does not mean something from nothing. Free energy is energy that is free of pollutants which has a near infinite source, yet it also must produce more energy then that which goes into it to create the process of conversion you uneducated fool. Windmills and even Water Turbines are considered free energy and have been for over a hundred years.
Someone pointed out the Meg and this was one of the energy systems I was referring to. It is a working system and passes all the tests and has received a patent an amazing feat all on it’s own) yet is being suppressed through litigation. Cant have that getting out there in a oil run world, it might upset the status quo. I find it humorous that we are more concerned as a people with the letter of the law then that object in which all the talk is about. Here we have something that could change the world for the better and all we can do is argue over bullshit topics concerning its origin or who’s name should go where. This is just as stupid as trying to convince people that there is no free energy in response to all I said in my post. Was it that which inspired your spew of rubbish while you ignored the points I made in my post about free energy and the implications on why we aren’t using it yet when it has been around for so long. Or was that response just a display of mental masturbation for an audience to appreciate your mental prowess “works for me”. I cannot help but to laugh at your response.
Yet I will rebuttal your opinion that I have not “researched” my claims that cold fusion is a reality. Yet for some reason I believe it will be wasted air on you as I believe you would not think it a reality yourself until the story hits CNN to spoon feed you your right to know what the reality is you little lost sheep.
The cold fusion (literally the joining of two heavy hydrogen nuclei to form helium four – releasing energy that can be used to turn a turbine in the form of heat without high energy release comparable to nuclear fallout or excessive radiation release) story broke out of Utah on March 23rd 1989. Dr. Pons and Fleischmann made their announcement at the University of Utah that they had created a source of energy that had more energy coming out of it than in, from a vessel of heavy water. The heat that was coming out of it was so intense that it had to be a nuclear source yet they didn’t have proof of it other then the magnitude of excess heat and some preliminary indications of nuclear products. This is how it began and by the way this was also 12 hours before the Exxon Valdez ran aground in Point Williams Sound in Alaska.
The conspiracy theorists will note that this was a major threat because we had a discovery that was a major threat to the scientific establishment that was very real. These physicists had, at their beck and call, many other programs that they could divert monies from to expand this research even if further funding were denied governmentally, and already the scientific world was in the spotlight from it.
The founders had their name on it and the information was released as to how the cold fusion process worked and soon kilometric repeats of the Pons-Fleischmann experiment began. My mention of MIT in my post above is significant because the partnership that the Department of Energy had at the time with MIT and also because the source of this information comes from Dr. Eugene Mallove. This guys has two degrees from MIT and one from Harvard and was at the time all of this was going on he was also the Chief Science Writer at MIT. Basically all this shit hit his desk and he had first hand experience with it all so don’t start telling me HE needs to do his research PAL.
Within weeks of the cold fusion announcement, the hot fusion people were working behind closed doors to disprove Pons and Fleischmann. These experiments had to be documented and these very documents had to hit the desk of the Chief Scientific Writer. Mallove notes that the first hint of (what was it you called it? Conspiracy?) fraud was two testings done. One on July 10th 1989 and the other on July 13th 1989. The difference between the two were dramatic as the amount of excess heat that was graphed on both experiments using heavy water were different because the july 13th experiment data had been altered way beyond standard averaging which is appropriate only in certain time blocks. Yet here the signal that was graphed had been utterly changed, clearly altered fraudulently. He found out it was a lower echelon person in the plasma fusion center at MIT that had done it. One of the 16 authors of the scientific paper done at the department of energy contract had altered the data. It was represented as a negative result when it was positive. If you wonder where this is going, well the powers that be chose the July 13th 1989 data to substantiate that the cold fusion dream is not a reality, that it has been tested and that is has come up with a negative result via the most esteemed scientists in the world at MIT R&D.
Despite the Chief Scientific Writers request for a review as well as the repeated success of later cold fusion experiments by Dr. Les Case (an MIT graduate). This is the process that has been repeated at SRI International. But to no avail. The government not only has used the fraudulent data done at MIT on July 13th 1989 but it has used this data to marginalize the efforts of anyone trying to attain a patent on anything resembling cold fusion. Terminology is being used as a weapon in this area and cold fusion is now being called pathological science when in reality it has already been proven to work. Only to be ignored.
Now you may try and say that they were unaware of the source of the power but that isn’t true, it was studied extensively and there were quite a few things that were happening in the Pons Fleischmann experiment, and one of them was cold fusion. There is no doubt about this. It has been documented. It has been suppressed and the public was told lies about it. Why?
Why indeed well lets think about it. What this means is that in one cubic kilometer of ocean, if you fuse all the heavy hydrogen, which is just one sixty-five hundredth of that cubic kilometer of ocean, then that would equal the oil energy from combusting all the known reserves on earth. This is the oil you are putting in your car at one to two dollars per gallon as well as all the other millions and millions of other Americans do at least weekly. This oil is the backbone income of some of the richest men in the world. Some of these men (if not all) represent special interest with HUGE amounts of money to be used to persuade government officials to perpetuate the oil dependency in all the nations of the common wealth. DUH
But hey…there is no conspiracy here. There is no such thing as cold fusion. The government says so, and so does “works for me”
Next thing you will be telling me is that there is no war in the middle east, those rockets you see flying around there is just swamp gas, or mass hallucination because hey…our government would lie to us.
It wasn’t our government that classified all research into Electro-gravatic devices such as the research done by Dr. Townsen Brown in 1952. Hell that was something that could have benefited the world, they would take that from us would they?
But your right…I haven’t done my research. That must be the problem. I am suffering delusions. Hell pal, that shit is obsolete. Free point energy is harnessing the energy fluctuations that occur on a quantum level in a vacuum, any vacuum that makes nuclear energy release seem small in comparison, and with no fallout particles.
Let me give you some advice “works for me” before you are about to spew more putrid bullshit about what you know that others don’t. Put your head back up your ass to prevent it so we don’t have to read it here. And please, do some research pal. Conspiracy is as real as your ignorance. It is tangible and it stinks.
I was merely trying to draw a parallel between the activities that have occurred in the past and tried to apply them to try and predict what they will do in the future. I wasn’t trying to convince you or anyone else that the basis of my parallel was in question. But since you brought it up…and challenged me on it…there is your rebuttal.
As for what my view on all the bullshit that is happening? Its all a game, it has relevance to you because it is your relatives that die and your friends that suffer. If you think that those in power…true power…give a flying fuck about your little lives then you are up for a big awakening because you are just a SSN to them and a tiny amount of money every year when they rape you for the taxes you have to pay.
Beyond that you are a voice. A voice that is occupied quiet by football and the coliseum events that they use to keep your mind elsewhere. A voice kept informed by the media machine that they own and not just influence but have a direct control over what you know and feel. A voice that is shaped and molded from birth to be docile and to always turn the other cheek when they slap the shit out of you. A sheep. Slave. Powerless, believing the illusions of safety they feed you.
Safety is kind of funny isn’t it. When I was a kid and I was told to lock the doors of my house and car I asked why. My mother told me it was to keep people from stealing the car or from breaking into the house. Now being a kid, I have thrown rocks and broken a lot of windows in old run down houses for fun. I have also accidentally broken the car window by tossing around a baseball. The lock on a door be it car or a house is a farce. An illusion of security when anyone who can lift a small little stone can get past that locked door or house because we have windows. Safety and security is a lie. The only thing that can bring about true safety and security is mass cooperation in a crime free society. It will never happen. We are too spiritually immature.
We as a people have allowed a power to exist that has made a nuclear warhead. So many of them that if they were all to be used then every living thing on this planet, including the surface of the planet itself and its ability to bring forth life as we know it, could be utterly destroyed more then 7 times over. For all we know…there is a finger poised over the big red launch button right now, paranoia wrestling with the moral responsibility to the continuing existence of man on this planet. What ever happens, good or bad, we fully deserve the consequences. We as a species are at the end of a rope, we can either fall to our death or ascend up to rational thought. The war on terrorism…small beans in my book. Not that I don’t feel for those involved, it is a tragedy, but small when faced with the state of affairs that they represent.
Jim
Galileo
You know him for inventing the telescope. He is revered today. He also devised and constructed a geometrical and military compass, and wrote a handbook which describes how to use this instrument. In 1594 he obtained the patent for a machine to raise water levels. He invented the microscope, and built a telescope with which he made celestial observations, the most spectacular of which was his discovery of the satellites of Jupiter. In 1610 he was nominated the foremost Mathematician of the University of Pisa and given the title of mathematician to the Grand Duke of Tuscany. He studied Saturn and observed the phases of Venus. In 1611 he went to Rome. He became a member of the Accademia dei Lincei and observed the sunspots. In 1612 he began to encounter serious opposition to his theory of the motion of the earth that he taught after Copernicus. In 1614, Father Tommaso Caccini denounced the opinions of Galileo on the motion of the Earth from the pulpit of Santa Maria Novella, judging them to be erroneous. Galileo therefore went to Rome, where he defended himself against charges that had been made against him but, in 1616, he was admonished by Cardinal Bellarmino and told that he could not defend Copernican astronomy because it went against the doctrine of the Church.
This is the sanitized version of history that you are taught in school. What was the reality of his life when he challenged mankind with the proof that the sun does not revolve around the earth, that the earth is NOT the center of the universe. He was a hunted man at times and may have even had assassination attempts made on his life for disturbing the status quo..(I am reminded of Tesla here)
When I hear your arguments or statement that such and such doesn’t exist or it is all wrong...I have to laugh because you remind me so much of those Church officials of the middle ages who would "make judgments" based on nothing but the militarily defended authority to do so. This is happening still today because this is how many decisions of the welfare of our lives and what is and is not a reality today in the USA is done. You may role your eyes but history doesn’t lie and I am sure that the majority of the people who lived as serfs, slaves, or servants to the aristocracy of the time were kept in the dark of such “evil” revelations as to who we are and what our place in the universe is. Just as we all are kept unaware today when at all possible.
Does the parallel I draw seem so far fetched to you? Could it be that some things which have been discovered that may threaten the status quo of the governing state, get suppressed, hidden away, even aggressively shut down and secreted away to some unreachable fortress for the sake of national security? DUH…it is called conspiracy.
There is also little taught about what happened to the Wright brothers after they had successfully flown a heavier than air flyer.
Although the Wrights initially received wide acclaim for their invention of the airplane, the aviation community was quickly overcome by jealousy and greed: airplane developers did not want to pay the modest license fee the Wright brothers asked when others employed their method of lateral control in heavier-than-air flight. To escape this fee, the aviation industry engaged in a prolonged smear campaign against the Wright brothers, minimizing their contributions in the invention of the airplane.
France and Germany simply refused to issue the Wrights patents for controlling the lateral motion of airplanes by ailerons or wing-warping. Europeans were free to copy the Wrights ideas without restrictions, or the embarrassing admission that the Wrights had done something the Europeans had not.
In America, an ugly patent fight erupted. The Wrights brought suit against Glenn Curtiss, who was selling airplanes with aileron control without paying royalties to the Wrights. To fight the suit, Curtiss enlisted Albert Zahm, then on the staff at the Smithsonian. Zahm, with his public forum through his position at the Smithsonian and later at the Library of Congress, was especially effective in trivializing the Wright's contributions.
Even the Smithsonian got into the fight, for selfish reasons. Samuel Pierpont Langley, one-time director of the Institution, had spent a fortune of the Institution's money to develop heavier-than-air craft. His craft, launched from a houseboat, could not take the strains imposed by the catapult, and broke during the launching, causing a great deal of humiliation to both Langley and the Smithsonian. Curtiss and Zahm offered to prove that Langley's airplane was effective, restoring the reputation of the Smithsonian in the process. They re-built the crashed airplane, making a number of modifications to the craft needed to make it airworthy. It was then flown in a straight line, with no method of lateral control, as a way of showing the Wrights did not really invent the airplane. In all the publicity that followed the event, the Smithsonian, Curtiss, and Zahm neglected to mention the many modifications made to the plane, claiming they had reconstructed the plane to Langley's original design. The Smithsonian recanted this claim only after many years and considerable damage to the Wright's reputation.
What reward did society bestow upon the Wrights for all their pains, their creativity, and their generosity? Wilbur, worn out and exhausted from a prolonged legal fight in the patent battle against a set of well-financed, viscous, and self-serving collection of airplane developers, succumbed to a mild case of food poisoning. In a small measure of victory, the courts sided with the Wrights. From this outcome, Orville was able to obtain a tidy sum of money, although the sum was in no way commensurate with the importance of the Wright's contribution or the patent the brothers received for their method of lateral control. Of course, no money at all came from European countries, which simply stole the Wright ideas without compensation.
The smear campaign against the Wrights must be counted as one of the most effective in history.
And of course what was the first mass production applications of Airplanes used for?
War
That’s the short of it…people will deny the reality of something to the end as will the world governments until one of two things happens. There will have to be a way to make more money off of it then the current system. The current system will have to have suffered a major operational failure…such as the worldwide depletion of fossil fuels.
*steps off the soap box*
Jim
Diis aliter visum
Jim
Why is it so hard to believe there is not a conspiracy?
Does anyone find it odd that you trust this "underground" website, just because it defies your government...maybe they're both lying...maybe only one is....the truth is we don't know...so don't get too passionate about your ideas, you need to keep an open mind, that even if the goverment is lying, its not the whole government...and even if the government isn't lying, there are still corrupt politicians... Nothing is for certain....keep your eyes open
(. . . )
The over-riding question: If we are at war, who is the enemy?
The group determined that the enemy is within the gates, that he has infiltrated into the highest policy-making positions at the Federal level, and has absolute control, not only of the purse strings, but of the troop build-up and deployment of our military forces, including active, reserve and National Guard units.
(. . . )
This writer has been a general aviation pilot since 1946. 1 have flown a variety of single engine prop aircraft since, and installed an FAA-approved airstrip here on my farm in 1980.
(. . . )
"Even if I had a gun at my head, I'd never fly a plane into a building. I'd try to put it in anywhere -- a field or a river --and I'd be scaring the hell out of them (the hijackers) by flying upside down first," Hill said.
In fact, the pilot has the best weapon in his hand when threatened with imminent death by a hijacker, namely, the airplane.
Another airline pilot stated. "On hearing a major scuffle in the cabin, the pilot should have inverted the aircraft and the hijackers end up with broken necks."
That none of the four pilots executed such a maneuver points toward the fact that none of them had control of their aircraft, but had been overridden by an outside force, which was flying them by remote control.
As an old and not so bold pilot, I became more convinced that the four commercial jets were choreographed by a "conductor" from a central source, namely an airborne warning and control system (AWACS). They have the electronic capability to engage several aircraft simultaneously, knock out their on-board flight controls by EMP (electro-magnetic pulsing) and assume command and remote control of these targeted aircraft.
(. . . )
Osama is the modern equivalent of Orwell's "Emmanual Goldstien", the boogie man on whom the government blames everything. Even though careful observers have long known the United States economy was poised for a major decline, the media is spinning the current economic woes as a direct result of the attacks on the World Trade Towers, in the hopes that the general public will be stupid enough to believe it.
If Orwell is not to your taste, then let's try L. Frank Baum and the "Wizard Of Oz", who used a paper mache' mask to scare Dorothy Gale into doing war with the Wicked Witch of the West, something farm girls would not normally be wise to do. After all, witches have air superiority!
( . . .)
Indeed it isn't Osama who terrorizes Americans, it is the American media, waving fear all over the place. Yes, Anthrax is nasty, but would a real anthrax attack harm so few people? More people have been gunned down in Washington DC in the last 6 weeks than have died by anthrax. More people are sick with Dengue fever on Maui than are sick with Anthrax. Yet Anthrax, and the fear it is designed to cause, get the headlines, to keep the public scared, so scared that they cannot think.
Because once the people stop being terrorized by the media and start to think, they'll realize that it makes no more moral sense to bomb the Afghani people over what crimes Osama has done than it makes to bomb people of Chicago over the crimes the mafia does.
(. . . )
And that is when the American people will realize that, once again, they are being lied to to swindle them out of their support for a war, a war not fought for moral principle but for profit, profit from oil paid for in the blood of our children.
Jim
Jim
Look. There are no nations. All of this flag waving is conspiracy. Take the subject of the first sentence of the constitution, "We the people of the United States of America" and then look at how many signed that paper. The first sentence is a lie! Those who profess patriotism or nationalism for these conspiracies are simply duped by the noise of the massive propaganda that started from day one and lasts throughout primary, secondary and college level so-called education. We are one family. We are all in this together. Find enemies amongst other human beings and you give our real enemies, misunderstanding, loss of liberty, promulgation of deep set sociopathos, entropy, strength and freedom to wreck this fragile and small world. Yeah, four little turds in a row. Easy for one person to defecate here thusly. Pathetic state of being trying to uphold human dignity, liberty and security in the face of those without a clue.
http://www.bushwatch.net/english.htm
What I find really disturbing is that all the debunkers claim that in no other country in the world could anyone express such views. For a wake up call to these people they should go visit the Guardian (British paper) or Pravda (Russian paper) which they will find to contain one hell of alot more dissent than any major American publication in existance. I could list dozens more, too. Freedom of expression has been exported to most of the developed world, perhaps it is time to import some of it back.
"Government is not reason, it is not eloquence, it is force; like fire, a troublesome servant and a fearful master. Never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action."
-George Washington
Chris Farley wheres my coke?Damn ah done snorted to much ah.....Whahoooo!!!!!!Damn give my daughter a strap on dildo to analize me!!!!........Owwww!
Tryin' to shoot his dust on the sun
Captain Carmakize that dead on the run
Oh words of love
Do they ever touch Dolly Brown?
Better get some highway and clear out of town''
Snitch culture, tell a friend.
The irony is that you might think that Ann Coulter is sexy and smart but she's actually anorexic and demented.
I don't want to take it all away from you. I want to give it all back. I want you to be happy. I want to smoke. You want to drive an SUV. We're both killing people. I want to end the war on some drugs you want to invest in Paxil or Xanax. This is where we might differ. See you'll profit from the investment in paxil if pot isn't there to do the trick. Why not invest in Marijuana? It'll get some of those burger king workers back out of prison. Slave labor will be ready for an all new pyramid building.
ooops. it's all that lsd i took it makes me paranoid.
so, why are you so paranoid?
On the subject of the much quoted "19 hijackers" alone I have many questions, below are just a few of them, they're simple, can anyone answer them?
If not, we really need to think about why that is.
I want to know who the hijackers were and where they came from.
I also want to know how the FBI managed, within 48 hours of the attacks, to get details and some rather nice photos of 19 men - the "hijackers."
The list produced by the FBI can be seen here, there's a link for each flight, showing names and photos etc:
http://www.fbi.gov/pressrel/penttbom/penttbomb.htm
Does anyone have an updated list? Is there one?
If there is I've yet to find it.
I ask because:
Saeed Alghamdi, Mohand Alshehri, Abdul aziz Alomari, Salem Alhazmi
"It was proved that five of the names included in the FBI list had nothing to do with what happened." - Saudi Arabia's Foreign Minister Prince Saud Al-Faisal told the Arabic Press after meeting with President George W. Bush on Sept. 20th
Saudi officials at the embassy were unable to verify the whereabouts of the fifth accused hijacker, Khalid Al-Mihdhar. However, Arab newspapers say Al-Mihdhar is still alive. Saeed Alghamdi, Mohand Alshehri, Abdul aziz Alomari and Salem Alhazmi "are not dead and had nothing to do with the heinous terror attacks in New York and Washington." The Saudi Arabian embassy told The Orlando Sentinel.
Khalid Al-Mihdhar (Flight 77)
Saudi officials at the the Saudi embassy were unable to verify the whereabouts of Khalid Al-Mihdhar. However, Arab newspapers say Al-Mihdhar is still alive. "..there are suggestions that another suspect, Khalid Al Midhar, may also be alive. "
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1559000/1559151.stm
Waleed Alshehri (Flight 11, trained Pilot)
Saudi national Waleed Alshehri, is living in Casablanca, according to an official with the Royal Air Moroc, the Moroccan commercial airline. According to the unnamed official, Alshehri lived in Dayton Beach, Fla., where he took flight training at Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University. Now he works for a Moroccan airline.
On Sept. 22, Associated Press reported that Alshehri had spoken to the U.S. embassy in Morocco. "His photograph was released by the FBI, and has been shown in newspapers and on television around the world. That same Mr Al-Shehri has turned up in Morocco, proving clearly that he was not a member of the suicide attack. " - Daily Trust 24th September 2001
"He was reported to have been in Hollywood, Florida, for a month earlier this year but his father, Ahmed, said that Waleed was alive and well and living in Morocco." - Telegraph
"Another of the men named by the FBI as a hijacker in the suicide attacks on Washington and New York has turned up alive and well." - BBC 23rd September 2001
http://allafrica.com/stories/200109240325.html
http://news.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/09/20/wterr120.xml
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1559000/1559151.stm
Abdul aziz Alomari (Flight 11, trained Pilot)
2 men with same name joined together it seems - into a hijacking terrorist.
Mr Omari Number 1
Mr. Al-Omari, a pilot with Saudi Airlines, walked into the US embassy in Jeddah to demand why he was being reported as a dead hijacker in the American media."a pilot with Saudi Airlines, was astonished to find himself accused of hijacking as well as being dead and has visited the US consulate in Jeddah to demand an explanation." - Independent 17th September 2001
Mr Omari Number 2
"a Saudi man has reported to authorities that he is the real Abdulaziz Alomari, and claims his passport was stolen in 1995 while he studied electrical engineering at the University of Denver. Alomari says he informed police of the theft." - ABCNews
"I couldn't believe it when the FBI put me on their list. They gave my name and my date of birth, but I am not a suicide bomber. I am here. I am alive. I have no idea how to fly a plane. I had nothing to do with this." - Telegraph 23rd September 2001
"The name [listed by the FBI] is my name and the birth date is the same as mine, but I am not the one who bombed the World Trade Center in New York," Abdulaziz Alomari told the London-based Asharq Al-Awsat newspaper.
"Alomari has since been found in Saudi Arabia and is apparently cleared in the case" - New York Times
"Saudi Embassy officials in Washington have challenged his identity. They say a Saudi electrical engineer named Abdulaziz Alomari had his passport and other papers stolen in 1996 in Denver when he was a student and reported the theft to police there at the time. " - BBC
"The second Abdulaziz Al Omari is a pilot for Saudi Arabian Airlines" - BBC 23rd September 2001
"Abdel Aziz Al-Omari and Saïd Hussein Gharamallah Al-Ghamdi, are well in life, the first in Saudi Arabia and the second in Tunisia for nine months." - Wal Fadjri 21st September 2001
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=94438
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/WTC_suspects.html
http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/09/23/widen23.xml
http://www.asharqalawsat.com/
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/americas/newsid_1567000/1567815.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1559000/1559151.stm
http://allafrica.com/stories/200109210084.html
Translation of the above:
http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fallafrica.com%2Fstories%2F200109210084.html&langpair=fr%7Cen&hl=en
Saeed Alghamdi (Flight 93, trained Pilot)
"Saeed Alghamdi is one of three hijackers that US officials have said are linked to Osama bin Laden's al-Qaida network. "- BBC
But, Mr. Al-Ghamdi is still alive and well and at his job for Tunis Air
"I was completely shocked. For the past 10 months I have been based in Tunis with 22 other pilots learning to fly an Airbus 320. The FBI provided no evidence of my presumed involvement in the attacks." - Telegraph 23rd September 2001
"Asharq Al Awsat newspaper, a London-based Arabic daily, says it has interviewed Saeed Alghamdi." - BBC 23rd September 2001
"Abdel Aziz Al-Omari and Saïd Hussein Gharamallah Al-Ghamdi, are well in life, the first in Saudi Arabia and the second in Tunisia for nine months." - Wal Fadjri 21st September 2001
"..not dead and had nothing to do with the heinous terror attacks in New York and Washington." - Saudi embassy
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/americas/newsid_1567000/1567815.stm
http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/09/23/widen23.xml
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1559000/1559151.stm
http://allafrica.com/stories/200109210084.html
Translation of the above:
http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fallafrica.com%2Fstories%2F200109210084.html&langpair=fr%7Cen&hl=en
Salem Alhazmi (Flight 77)
"Mr Al-Hamzi is 26 and had just returned to work at a petrochemical complex in the industrial eastern city of Yanbou after a holiday in Saudi Arabia when the hijackers struck. He was accused of hijacking the American Airlines Flight 77 that hit the Pentagon." - Telegraph 23rd September 2001
http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/09/23/widen23.xml
Ahmed Alnami (Flight 93)
"I'm still alive, as you can see. I was shocked to see my name mentioned by the American Justice Department. I had never even heard of Pennsylvania where the plane I was supposed to have hijacked." He had never lost his passport and found it "very worrying" that his identity appeared to have been "stolen" and published by the FBI without any checks. The FBI had said his "possible residence" was Delray Beach in Florida. " - Telegraph 23rd September 2001
http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/09/23/widen23.xml
Others accused of being involed in the hijackings:
Ameer Bukhari
"Ameer Bukhari died in a small plane crash last year. " - CNN Correction
http://www.cnn.com/virtual/editions/europe/2000/roof/change.pop/frameset.exclude.html
Adnan Bukhari
"Adnan Bukhari is still in Florida" - CNN Correction
http://www.cnn.com/virtual/editions/europe/2000/roof/change.pop/frameset.exclude.html
Amer Kamfar
"..that a suspect sought by the FBI, Amer Kamfar, was in fact an alive pilot in Arabia. " - Wal Fadjri 21st September 2001
allafrica.com/stories/200109210084.html
Translated vertion of the above:
http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A//allafrica.com/stories/200109210084.html&langpair=fr%7Cen&hl=en
Anyone have any ideas?
Rather odd isn't it?
Shouldn't we be questioning it?
Shouldn't our media?
Compared the above to the FBI's list, why are they still there?
Expert: Hijackers likely skilled with fake IDs
September 21, 2001 Posted: 8:55 PM EDT (0055 GMT)
By Daniel Sieberg
CNN
FBI Director Robert Mueller has acknowledged that some of those behind last week's terror attacks may have stolen the identification of other people, and, according to at least one security expert, it may have been "relatively easy" based on their level of sophistication....
http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/09/21/inv.id.theft/
Anyone else think that solve a crime one has to work out the "how" and the "who"?
Well, they tried apparently, but they, the hijackers, "left no paper trial". The "FBI director stated flatly":
http://www.americanfreepress.net/051302/FBI_Admits__No_Evidence_/fbi_admits__no_evidence_.html
That means no evidence linking the named to the hijackings does it not?
But how can that be?
Why don't any of the hijackers named by the FBI appear on the lists of passengers?
http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/trade.center/victims/AA11.victims.html
Interesting thing to note is that the names given for those onboard do not add up to the total stated. Flight 11 for example, it is stated that there were 92 people inboard, see the link above.
But, count the names, there are 87, including the crew, all the lists are the same, some missing more, more than the "19 hijackers". Count them for yourself, why is that so?
Why has the evidence provided by Flight Attendant Ms Madeline Amy Sweeney of Flight 11 been ignored by the FBI?
Why were the seat numbers of the hijackers that she gave ignored?
Why are they different to the FBI's?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/americas/newsid_1556000/1556096.stm
What on earth are we to make of this?
Only CIA knew hijackers were here
By Joyce Howard Price
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
June 3, 2002
The CIA was tracking two of the September 11 hijackers for nearly two years and knew they had entered the United States, but didn't inform the FBI, the Immigration and Naturalization Service or the State Department, key federal officials say....
http://www.washtimes.com/national/20020603-68231361.htm
And this?
CIA tracked two Sept. 11 hijackers and let them escape
06/03/2002
Agencies
The CIA tracked two suspected terrorists to a Qaeda summit in Malaysia in January 2000, then looked on as they re-entered America and began preparations for September 11. Inside what may be the worst intelligence failure of all...
http://www.chinadaily.net/news/2002-06-03/72183.html
And what about this?
September 11 hijacker questioned in January 2001
Sources: CIA was interested in his travels in Afghanistan
August 1, 2002 Posted: 8:24 PM EDT (0024 GMT)
By Sheila MacVicar and Caroline Faraj
CNN
(CNN) -- One of the September 11 hijackers was stopped and questioned in the United Arab Emirates in January 2001 at the request of the CIA, nearly nine months before the attacks, sources in the government of the UAE, and other Middle Eastern and European sources told CNN...
http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/08/01/cia.hijacker/index.html
What did you CIA know?
What are we to make of this?
This is a recording from National Public Radio, live on the morning of 9/11, the "Morning Edition" show, hosted by Bob Edwards. Listen as the story develops, then listen carefully 1 hour 5 mins and 40 secs in (or fast forward to that point) when Bob Edwards is talking to David Welna, the Congressional correspondent for National Public Radio.
You will hear David Welna say:
"I spoke with Congressman Ike Skelton - a Democrat from Missouri and a member of the Armed Services Committee - who said that just recently the Director of the CIA (Tenant) warned that there could be an attack - an imminent attack - on the United States of this nature. So this is not entirely unexpected."
The "this" being the attacks, of course.
You can listen here:
http://www.npr.org/ramfiles/me/20010911.me.18.ram
Can be found here:
http://search.npr.org/cf/cmn/cmnpd01fm.cfm?PrgDate=9/11/2001&PrgID=3
What are we to make of that? It's not only the "imminent attack" part, but considering what had happen the "of this nature."
What did/does Tenant know that he's not telling the like of you and I? Why on earth aren't our 'distinguished' journalists asking the right questions of the right people in the right way?
Are they indeed asking and receiving only silence as a response? Or are they scared to even approach the subject? One year on...
http://nyc.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=29926&group=webcast
It's like the whole fucking American populace has ADD. Anything past a couple weeks and they forget.
(Watergate. Did you know for instance that Donald Rumsfeld, your oh-so-pretentious Defense Secretary was also the Defense Secretary under Nixon and ever Rebuplican since?)
It amzes me that foreigners know more about your 'great' country than you patriots. Wait, how many states are there again? Wait, better ask a Mexican.
Iraqi scientist says materials for nuclear bombs in hand
Paul Martin
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
Published 9/16/2002
LONDON — Iraq is already using copies of pirated German equipment to process nuclear material for an atomic weapons program, according to a former Iraqi nuclear scientist who testified before the U.S. Senate this summer.
Khidir Hamza, who led a section of the Iraqi nuclear bomb program before his defection in 1994, said the devices may not be discovered even if U.N. inspectors are allowed to return to Iraq.
"The beauty of the present system is that the units are each very small, and in the four years since the inspectors left, they will have been concealed underground or in basements or buildings that outwardly seem normal," he said.
Mr. Hamza was one of the first witnesses at Senate hearings on Iraq in July. But in a series of interviews over the past several weeks, he painted a much more alarming picture than was laid out before the Senate or in a widely discussed report released last week by the London-based International Institute for Strategic Studies.
That study concluded that Iraqi President Saddam Hussein's regime could make an atomic bomb within months if it succeeded in acquiring the necessary nuclear fuel from an outside source.
But Mr. Hamza said Iraq already has, and is processing some 1.3 tons of low-enriched material bought many years ago from Brazil.
He maintained that Iraq has also been processing many tons of its own yellow-cake uranium, which has been extracted from large supplies of phosphates in the north.
U.N. inspectors were shown 162 tons of the material before their expulsion in 1998, but Mr. Hamza said there are several other sites that can be used.
"The amount of uranium it already has — conservatively estimated in a German intelligence report at 10 tons of natural uranium and 1.3 tons of low-enriched uranium — is enough for three nuclear weapons," Mr. Hamza said.
Before their expulsion, the inspectors dismantled an illegally imported German centrifuge that had been used in a program that progressively refines natural or low-enriched uranium until it becomes suitable for weapons.
But Mr. Hamza, who was the science adviser to the Atomic Energy Establishment and later helped start and direct Iraq's nuclear weapons program, said by then the "cat was out the bag."
He said he suspects the Iraqis have taken advantage of the four years since the inspectors' expulsion to make numerous copies of the original smuggled centrifuge and are busily refining uranium into the necessary material for nuclear bombs.
"It's a relatively simple process once you have the plans and some experience operating one or two centrifuges," he said.
The key was provided, he said, when German Karl Schaab showed the Iraqis how to build and operate a centrifuge in 1989, and later helped them build a second.
"Our engineers videoed as it was put up, so they could build identical ones. Then he also provided 130 classified documents and charts detailing every aspect of the construction.
"When the inspectors took away the original centrifuge, we already had the know-how. I believe there are probably hundreds of copies today," said Mr. Hamza, who now lives in the United States.
"They are easy to hide — undetectable from satellites if built within or under other buildings."
The problem for Iraq, he says, is simply to keep reprocessing the material so that after each run it gets more and more enriched, until it reaches the 90 percent level needed to make a nuclear weapon.
The process can be completed more quickly if one begins with low-enriched uranium — which is at 3 percent to 4 percent — rather than only natural uranium, which is at about 0.7 percent.
A really efficient weapons program requires thousands of such centrifuges, as each has a very small output of enriched uranium, Mr. Hamzi said.
Further evidence that such a program is in place came this month when the United States announced the interception of a shipment to Iraq of highly refined aluminum tubes suitable for making centrifuges.
"The whole centrifuge method of getting to a bomb is much easier for Iraq than, for example, it was for Pakistan, which took 17 years in going the same route," Mr. Hamza said. "They had to get it in bits and pieces, whereas we got a whole centrifuge and all the plans."
Experts suggest the method being used by Iraq can take from four to seven years, depending on the number of centrifuges. Mr. Hamza said Iraq would have begun work in earnest as the inspectors left in 1998.
"This means, unless he's stopped soon, Saddam will have set up a whole nuclear bomb industry, not just have made a couple of bombs," he said.
Iraq has repeatedly denied having such a program.
"It's not that Iraq has no material," said Foreign Minister Naji Sabri in a televised interview last week. "From the beginning of 1991 the government had a decision to leave the weapons-of-mass-destruction club. So we presented all we had to UNSCOM [the U.N. weapons inspectors]. There is nothing."
Mr. Hamza, who was working on Saddam's weapons program when Israeli jets bombed the French-supplied 40-megawatt Osirak research reactor in 1981, confirmed long-held suspicions that the facility was to have been used to develop nuclear weapons material.
Scientists had planned not to divert the existing French-supplied highly enriched nuclear fuel — enough for one bomb — but rather blanket the reactor with natural or depleted uranium, which would produce plutonium. That would have made it possible to continue producing, eventually allowing repeated bomb production.
"From the moment Osirak was hit we knew we had to try another method to get the bomb, and the centrifuge approach is the easiest to conceal," Mr. Hamza said.
Copyright © 2002 News World Communications, Inc. All rights reserved.
Hey everyone, go to the chat. 100% TROLL-FREE! The little snotty brats are phraid to go in.
But there is hope open your conciousness to relise that which you are "son of man and fully enlightened ". Pass through duality.
However, in the supposed land of the free, it is quite frightening to see that many of the dissenting views are met with "If you don't like the country, then get the hell out of it." Isn't part of American patriotism standing up for what you feel is important and morally just? I have a hard time believing that a nation can be free if you just ask people to leave if you don't like their opinion.
Speaking as an outsider, I can say that CNN is the Pravda of the new millenium. There is as much news shaping going on today at CNN as there was during the height of the USSR's propaganda machine.
To the guy who doesn't care as long as he gets to keep his 4 bedroom house etc., let me request that you go watch the Matrix again on your home theatre system. It's about being lulled to sleep just enough to keep you from asking too many questions, but keeping you awake enough to show up for your 9 to 5 shift five days a week.
Good thoughts. Only problem is that once they land in the new country they will find all the resources stolen by the parasittical superpower , American garrisons and an undemocratic puppet regime that takes orders from USA.
The only debate about who the terrorists of the world really are is going on inside your country.
Everyone else knows that AMERICA is the rogue terrorist state! And all its apathetic citizens are only aiding its cause!
With all due respect sir, your respect for human life is appauling and I hope you suffer a long, gruesome and painful death caused by something that you are innocent of.
I'm glad I'm not you as spending eternity in hell something that I don't not find attractive, unlike you.
if that is the case (and it seems to be), then who is winning the war on terrorism?
Seems to me that the Terrorists are not only winning, but have already won the war.
Some will be killed. Others will kill.
Inevitably only 2 destinations exist ...... Heaven ( Jannah) and Hell ( Jahannam ). Each and everyone has a choice and may you folks all be successfull in your choice of destination. Goodluck! ..... My apoligies for spelling errors.
When you wish to speak with a Greek it is best to talk Greek. Terrorists understand terror. They do not speak "love" or "compassion"....They do not intellectualize or analyze.. they respect and respond to terror.
Those who fail to appreciate history are doomed to repeat it..... Several decades ago we had some Barbary pirates that took some American's hostage and were rewarded with an "immediate" invasion by U.S. Marines.... the Barbary Coast has NEVER threatened us again.
A few years back we had hostages taken in Iran. We waltz around intellectualizing and negotiating and Iran gave up the hostages when it was ready. They are still an open wound and they have no repect for us even today.
Years later several hostages were taken in the middle east...held for YEARS....during this same period of time the Russians had one.....one....hostage taken and he was released in less than 30 days....No Russian diplomat was ever taken hostage again. WHY?.... because they took the terrorist brother hostage and started mailing back fingers....Terrorist understand terror....they respect the Russians.....they do not respect us.
The reason the terrorist felt free to attack the World Trade Center and the Pentagon is directly because of people like you who avoid making the hard choices....seek the easy peaceful humane way out. You are more responsible for 9/11 that that poor smuck who was asleep at the switch and did not send fighters to attack the highjacked airliners. So if you are fixing blame...give yourself a handfull. While you're at it save some for the next tragedy because your foot dragging and myopic approach is encouraging the next terrorist attack also.
We may not be kindred souls but at least there is a chance for intelligent dialog.
War is defined in the dictionary ... "contest or force between two nations or states"....to contend, strive violently; to fight"
When our brothers and sisters are being killed....it is "war".... whether it is declared or not....it is still "war"
Moore has an agenda. He ties Bush and Bin Laden together because they have a common economic venture.
I was in the same room with Jesse Jackson but that does not make me black or even a liberal.
While I might not agree with EVERYTHING you say or every way you say it, I think you possess a rationality that is innately missing in some and blatantly disregarded by others.
I revel in the beauty of the fight for reason and logic you maintain on this site.
I came here to do research and will walk away with a smile knowing that there is at least one ProAmerican who possesses intelligence who will help wage the war against idiocy.
I echo your "catch a plane" imperatives:
My history prof. always used to tell us that the most beneficial change we can make, as Americans, is to vote with our feet. i.e., take a hike--all the way accross our borders if you don't like what America is. You'll do America a lot of good if you do.
Also, I'm no super-wit, nor do I display any political prowess, but in my foreign travels I have encountered more people who want to be Americans than I have encountered Americans who want to renounce their citizenship. It screams something to me.
Keep Informed, Valid Logic Alive! Aristotle would be proud.
Arguing documented facts - like U.S. government admissions of their heinous behaviour e.g. track 2 in Chile to assassinate democratically elected leaders - is wasted on Eric - he just likes people to talk to him, about him whatever - usually attributed to lack of love, regard and attention by parents.
Eric, see a counsellor - fact based debate forums are not the place to display your scars.
Arguing documented facts - like U.S. government admissions of their heinous behaviour e.g. track 2 in Chile to assassinate democratically elected leaders - is wasted on Eric - he just likes people to talk to him, about him whatever - usually attributed to lack of love, regard and attention by parents.
Eric, see a counsellor - fact based debate forums are not the place to display your scars.
Iraq does attack its own people - so does the U.S. - civil rights, Vietnam protests, Rodney King, untold slaughter of millions of native americans, and the latest admission by the Pentagon that I only just heard about today - poison spraying of Canadians in Winnipeg in 1954 admitted by the PENTAGON personally at press conference May14th, 1997.
There are not any Iraqi breakings of International Law that are not mirrored by identical U.S. perpetrated or funded atrocities - how many dictators can a country support and how many democracies can it prevent. Anti U.S. feeling is justified on the basis of their foreign policy - they do not support democracy in other countries. Saddam is a good example of the nature of their usual type of foreign ally.
History tells us that invasions are about control of populations and resources - just because it's now 50 years later doesn't mean we are 50 years more civilised. It has been and always will be about control of resources.
Sentient beings with only the merest passsing aquaintance of historical fact know this. Don't waste any time arguing U.S. good - Iraq bad, or even vice versa. This, as always, is the back and forth of evil vs evil. The only action we can take is not to participate and persuade others to stay out of it.
I'm certainly not thinking about returning to the States in the near future.
It is obvious to any American that has travelled and other nations in this world. That US society has been dumbed down dramaticaly when it comes to world views and communities outside the US. US travellers will know that America and Americans are well respected and certainly seen as friends to many nations. However your government is one of the most ppowerfull and wants to stay that way. At any cost. The rest of the world does not want to be told how it is by "The Thick Hick"
LOOK at you WILL see that not only the US but many other countries suffer from incompetent liars in government.
The actions that the US government takes over the next year will come crashing back on their people for the next 30years. Fortunetly you have not experienced the terror that many people have to endure daily. Much of it caused by policies or weapon sales from Western nations. I hope they never do either. But sadly i fear you will.
Many of these nations have suffered from tyrany for years. But its only the ones with obvious advantages that seem to get saved by our righteous world leaders.
Be aware of the warm hand and brown finger. Many of you have received some large doses it would appear.
"Government is not reason, it is not eloquence --it is force! Like fire it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master; never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action."
"Differences in political opinion are as unavoidable as, to a certain point, they may perhaps be necessary."
"Anything will give up its secrets if you love it enough. Not only have I found that when I talk to the little flower or to the little peanut they will give up their secrets, but I have found that when I silently commune with people they give up their secrets also - if you love them enough."
--George Washington (1732-99), 1st US President, Federalist, General
So I give the preverbiable finger to all those who think GWBush is an intellectual.
Altho I didn't vote for bubba , I actually felt sorry for the so-and-so ! being slammed on monica...!
but once I seen the light...o'boy !...hmmmm....try
http://www.whatreallyhappened.comRANCHO/CRASH/BROWN/brown/.html
enjoy !
Of course. That is the point of dissent. To make sure that America stays American. The government has been engaged in some very un-American acts for better than one hundred years against foreigners and law-abiding citizens. Before every major war in the last century the government has passed an act that outlaws dissent. During these times, innocent people have been arrested, beaten, imprisoned and in a few cases killed just for exercising their First Amendment rights.
In other countries freedoms are different and very often in fewer numbers than here, but that doesn't mean that our freedoms can't be threatened or reduced.
I am thankful that I was born here, I love my country. I love blue jeans, rock and roll, barbeques and the Contitution. I don't love what our current government is doing to our Constitution. The First Amendment was written for the specific purpose of making sure that people could speak out when things went wrong. Well, now is the time when things are going wrong here with our government & with our people. It is not unpatriotic to identify a problem and look for its solution any more than it is paranoid to see a doctor when you have been puking your guts up for months. IT IS UNPATRIOTIC TO WALLOW IN DECEPTION AND IGNORANCE AND THEN GO FLY A FLAG. The government lies to us. Everybody knows that. Sometimes it is genuinely for our own protection, but sometimes it is for the exact opposite reason. To believe that all our officials are benevolent and want what's best for us is naive and irresponsible.
And in stating that , I will add that Some conspiracies are partial truths.SOME ARE DOWN RIGHT FACTUAL....BUT the common man will never know, because if he did .....AN INTEL OFFICER knows that if he ever slips up or lets out truths of goings on procedures inside of the company or any intellegence agency he could be tried for treason or worse he could have an accident.Usually,The Intel. Officer that speaks out publicly will not be touched because it will make the company and other agencies look bad or..expose us.Intellegence is good for the U.S.A but it is also good for other nations as well...WHY??? IF THERE WEREN'T ANY US INTELLEGENCE OFFICERS WOULDN'T HAVE A JOB OR FEEL IMPORTANT.AND THE PRESIDENT WOULDN'T HAVE TOO MUCH GOING ON EITHER.
ALL THIS IS JUST A GAME...SO LIVE WITH IT....YOU INTEL OFFICERS KNEW IT WHEN YOU STARTED..some good people got lost and hurt when they played the game but don't we all.The majority of us got started in the intel.business for the glamour of it and for the perks.The first time the company calls your name to let you know you've been accepted and where you'll be assigned is a big rush of excitement.
We now have to eat and reep what we sowed.Yes there are many skeletons in our governments closet ,and there will always be.
cheers
Mr Eric Joseph
TYPE: GENERAL YEVGENI PRIMAKOV IN THE SEARCH BOX OF A COMPUTER AND DIG THE TRUTH.
The answers are found in the struggle between Moses and Pharow. The Chosen People had to return to God; our nation must do the same. Reverse the disasterous 1963 edicts that removed teaching God's laws of truth, love and justice in our schools. It can be seen in action by attempts to remove His name from the pledge of allegiance and the Ten Commandments from from schools.
SMILE, AND GET ON OUR KNEES; WE ARE
A- MERRY-CANS! This our Valley Forge again!
"Joe Spenner !"
I served i the military as well and saw treachery at the highest levels. Why are you protecting a government that uses you as a lab rat. In case you have forgotten - Anthrax. Read the papers you signed to get into the military. You will notice an interesting fact - Consent for participation in FDA testing. Why would a freedom loving country experiment on you without your consent. Does Gulf War Syndrome ring a bell!
Freedom is being gutted daily by fear. That is exactly what led idiots on capital hill to even consider the Homeland SecurityBill, which allows the gov to so whatever it wishes to American citizens. You can choose to be blind to that if you want but it is a sad reality. I was once like you. Thought I was serving my country. Instead I was poisoned with experimental drugs and vaccines that are the cause for my cancer. Do some research before getting upset about this issue. You'll be amazed at what you find.
MrEric Joseph