Anti-Zionism Rally in Oakland a Success!

Not surprisingly not one reporter from corporate media showed up even though they got calls and press releases! Certainly corporate media doesn't want Americans to know the truth, and that is obvious. At least someone from the Jewish Bulletin was interested! Hope they aren't working with the Mossad!

Rabbi Weiss, an Ultra Orthodox Jew with the group Neturei Karta, wanted to come to speak at the rally, and actually almost did. He is completely anti-Zionism and Zionist Israel, and thinks Israel should be dismantled and a true secular democracy with equal rights for all including all the Palestinians should be put in place. We are planning a rally with in March at which he will be a speaker. We will keep you all posted. More info about his organization can be found at http://www.netureikarta.org. He believes that Zionism will ultimately completely fail, as it is immoral. His website gets tons of supportive e-mails from around the world. His group has attended many pro-Palestinian rallies, and also some of his group have gone so far as to burn the Israeli flag at demonstrations to show his sincerity at condemning racist Zionism.

The Zionists are beside themselves with anger that there could possibly be Jews, especially religious Jews, opposed to the Zionist Idolatry. Even when Zionists have all the money, all the arms, all the media, all the power, they STILL cannot stand that there are those of us who are loyal to our religion and reject Zionist heresy. G-d bless Rabbi Weiss. Also, please feel free to check these important websites:

http://www.netureikarta.org
http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com
http://www.jewsnotzionists.org
http://www.netureikartauk.org

The Zionists are beside themselves with anger that there could possibly be Jews, especially religious Jews, opposed to the Zionist Idolatry. Even when Zionists have all the money, all the arms, all the media, all the power, they STILL cannot stand that there are those of us who are loyal to our religion and reject Zionist heresy. G-d bless Rabbi Weiss. Also, please feel free to check these important websites:

http://www.netureikarta.org
http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com
http://www.jewsnotzionists.org
http://www.netureikartauk.org

I am not sure if my posting got through. I got some kind of error message.

"Dave" says Zionists control "money" and "the media" - he must have read it in his favorite book "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion" - pick it up at your favorite leftist bookshop.

In case anybody has any illusions in Barbara Lee and her postion on Israel:

In February of 2001, she introduced a resolution in the House congratulating mass murderer Ariel Sharon for his election as Prime Minister of Israel. The resolution saluted Israel as the only democracy in the region and called on the Palestinians to end their campaign of violence.

To my knowledge, she has never retracted this position.

Just one more liberal Democrat!

Pathetic, isn't it, about Barbara Lee's statement on Sharon.... Sigh... we have so much work ahead of us!
Apologists say she doesn't want to get voted out of office like McKinney. But then again, if she can't stand up for what's right on the Palestine issue, then what good is she? Not much.

How can Israel be labelled as a democracy when they deny arabs positions in parliament, they jail their own teenagers to refuse service in the military, and anyone who stands up to IDF aggression is shot, beaten, arrested, or killed.

http://www.islam-online.net/english/news/2003-01/15/article06.shtml

The war crimes get bolder and bolder, as they see that no one is rushing to the Palestinian people's aid. No one can.

/////////////////
Gush Shalom
/////////////////////////
Press release Jan. 16, 2003

= == = == = == = == = == =
Yoni Ben Artzi sent to prison for the seventh (7th) time,
bringing his total to 196 days; others following closely.
Gush Shalom: the army's hardening position shows that the
present wave of conscript refusal starts to pose a problem for
those who want to perpetuate the occupation.
= == = == = == = == = == =

Army imprisons for 7th time CO Ben Artzi (Netanyahu's nephew)

This morning, CO Yoni Ben Artzi entered the military prison for
the seventh consecutive time for a term of 35-days. Ben-Artzi's
renewed imprisonment was the culmination of more than a week
of what seemed a hestitation and equivocation on the army's part.
This time, he and other CO's were not immediately imprisoned
upon the end of their previous terms - but were invited to speak
with numerous officers and officials. Various possibilities, such as
a psychiatric discharge from the army, had been held out to them
- only to be withdrawn again. Mention was made of a high-level
miltary commission to be appointed of which apparently nothing
came.
At the end of his new prison term Yoni Ben Artzi (who happens
to be the nephew of Foreign Minister Binyamin Netanyahu) will
have spent 196 days in jail with no end in sight - for him or for Uri
Ya'akobi, Dror Beumel and an increasing number of Israeli
youths who refuse service in the Israeli army and are one by one
passing the 90 day mark, which was until recently the maximum.
Of the growing number of draft resisters part objects to military
service in general, others oppose to being part of an army of
occupation.

So, Ben Artzi was once again faced with the choice: "Enlist or go
to prison!". With a difference, however - Col. Deborah Chassid,
who had previously sentenced the CO's, this time told Ben Artzi
she was washing her hands of him and his friends and passing
the matter off to her superiors. (This may not be unconnected with
the thousands of protest letters and faxes which poured into her
office from all over the world in the past month).

In the end, Ben Artzi was sentenced by General Gil Regev in
person - member of the General Staff in charge of manpower, just
one rank below the top of the pyramid. Ben Artzi had told the
general (as he reported a few minutes later, just before his mobile
phone was taken away): "Unless you find a way through your own
bureaucratic procedures and release me from the army, you will
have to see me here again and again - for there is no way I am
going to enlist". Ben Artzi also reminded General Regev that he
had been recognized as a Prisoner of Conscience by Amnesty
International. He remarked that if it is possible for thousands of
ultra-Orthodox to be granted an exemption from military service, it
is not more than fair aalso to exempt the Conscientious
Objectors. (Many of the religious are not at all opposed to
violence or occupation - on the contrary.)
The general had only one answer: "You have appealed to the
Consicence Committee and it rejected your offer." (The
committee rejects virtually everybody regardless of his
arguments.)

Gush Shalom: the army leadership's hardening position proves
that the refuser movement among conscripts starts to pose a
serious problem. The present government policy of more and
more oppression, and ongoing occupation is dependent upon a
reliable army with obedient soldiers. But among today's eighteen
year olds there is an unprecedented wave of protesters. These
young people deserve all the support they can get.

I find it hilarious that all of them mention Martin luther king, and even use one of his famous quotes. Of course, I wonder why they dont mention this one:

"I know racism, and I know that Zionism is not racism" - Martin Luther King

95% of Anti-Zionists are Anti-Semites.

Someone posted a story about his support of zionism as being fake.

It is a fake, and even if someone dug up something pro-Zionist MLK may have possibly said, it was no doubt said right after the Zionists gave him a huge contribution. Trust me on that. There is NO WAY MLK would support apartheid Israel, which indeed it is. Even an Israeli Refusenik soldier states that Israel "is a racist, anti-democratic apartheid regime". See the clip of him at http://www.divest-from-israel-campaign.org Also, for more info on life in Palestine, you can get films from http://www.arabfilm.com

More info on the "Origin of the Palestine-Israel Conflict' by Jews for Justice in the Middle East at http://www.cactus48.com.

Martin Luther King called for this "Now is the time to make justice a reality for all of God's children" and guess what? That includes Palestinians!!!!

And the proof of this is?

And the proof of this is?

The sad truth is that Israel has become the modern day Nazi state. I'm proud to see Americans standing up for what is right, despite the unfair and undeserved accusations of anti-Semitism. Anti-Zionism IS NOT Anti-Semitism.

There is absolutely no truth to your assertion. The real truth is that 100% of Zionists are racists.

And the proof of this is?

Right Wing Nazis: single out Jews for hatred and vitriol, demonize Jews, exaggerate Jewish faults, impute crimes of certain Jews to all Jews, concoct Jewish conspiracies to explain whats wrong with society, blame Jews for corrupting the world, claim the influence of the Jewish media is why more people don't agree with them.

Left Wing Nazis: single out the Jewish State for hatred and vitriol, demonize the Jewish State, exaggerate the Jewish State's faults, impute crimes of certain Israelis to all Israelis, concoct Zionist conspiracies to explain whats wrong with society, blame the Jewish State for corrupting the world, claim the influence of the Zionist media is why more people don't agree with them.

Death to all Nazis - left and right.

It is important that Ariel Sharon is defeated, and that the Labor Party wins the most seats. Who can help? What is needed? Time is SHORT! Are there people who can send money to Labor? I was aghast to read the recent UPI story by Richard Sale UPI Intelligence Correspondent on 1/ 15/2003. "Israel to Kill in US, Allied Nations." Targeted Killings, lots of confirmation. I am appalled that Israel wants all of US foreign aid, when we shine on Africa and Latin America. Here's Barbra Streisand's address: Barbra Streisand c/o Martin Erlichman Associates, Inc. 5670 Willshire Blvd. LA CA 90036 Fax # 310-395-9676. Go for it.

And the proof of this is?

"It is important that Ariel Sharon is defeated, and that the Labor Party wins the most seats. Who can help?" - only one man can help and his name is Yassir Arafat. If the attacks stop, the Israeli voters will be comfortable with a leader who proposes withdrawl and negotiation. Otherwise, more Sharon and more suffering.

Richard, are you the same Richard that today posted to NYC indy, and attributed an Anti-Semetic hate crime in NYC to Moslems, even though the perpetrators of the crime have not been caught? Talk about racism!

You ranted and profaned the Almight with the following trash:
>>Those who seek solace in the Western way of life in the name of integration should fear disgrace at the hands of the West and their stooges in the Islamic world in this life, and the punishment of Allah (swt) in the hereafter. We ask you not to deviate from the path of the Haq even a hairbreadth until you see the Victory of Allah (swt) and the glory and power of Islam and the Muslims, or you meet Allah (swt) while He (swt) is pleased with you. <<

Bring it on...Your Allah has no power over me... or anybody else it seems...or he would not have let Islam degrade itself into such a sorry state. Islam once stood proud, at the forefront of science and discovery ...but once a society relinquishes it's power to a theocratic government, it quickly finds itself bogged down by the priests/clerics that cannot accept any ideas that may challenge their interpretation of holy scripture...

In 10 years , the West will have perfected the hydrogen fuel cell and we will be able to cut the middle east out of our energy futures....Too bad that the oil rich countries of that region haven't used their wealth to develop thier country's industries. Hard times are around the corner for any nation that has all of its eggs in the petroleum basket..

But, I'm sure that the clerics wil blame the Great Satans of the West for their miserable situation....."They are not buying our oil and that is an attack on Allah...they must pay for this insult !!

In case you missed it...

Report From Oakland Rally
by Che • Wednesday January 15, 2003 at 06:59 PM


Report from rally at Rep. Lee's offices

The Rally / Teach-In against U.S. Aid to Israel was a great success. Over 1000 people marched in front of the offices of Rep. Barbara Lee demanding that Israel's request for an additional $12 billion dollar in aid be rejected. A number of our contingents met with Rep. Lee's staff in her offices and presented out petition. It will be interesting to see how this is reported in the media. A reporter from the Los Angeles Times was present and interview many of the marchers! Great work everyone!!!

Wonderful March
by Cathy • Wednesday January 15, 2003 at 08:56 PM

It was wonderful! I thought there might be almost 2000 people there. Cars honked their horns in approval and people on the street thanked us for our work - I think we are really starting to have an impact!

peace
by peace • Thursday January 16, 2003 at 12:49 AM

Are you kidding? Were we at the same "rally?" Try 10, 50 at your absolute tippity top. The Israel supporters outnumbered you the whole time. This is why whatever propaganda and paraphenalia you put out can not and should not be believed. You can't even be honest about the size of your own rally. Truth heals. Tolerance not hate.Peace!

"2000 people"
by just wondering • Thursday January 16, 2003 at 07:56 AM



Where's a picture? You did take pictures, didn't you?


Got Em
by Chris • Thursday January 16, 2003 at 08:43 AM

I took tons of photos - I'll try to have them posted later today. My guess is better than 1500 people were there!!!

No, it wasn't a huge turnout, but we felt very good about how it went! And we've only just begun...

The tide is turning and the truth is out!!!!

Down with Zionism! Down with all racism!!!!!

Hey, thanks Zionists, for the counter-rally--- added a little drama to the scene! Poor passersby, were kind of afraid to literally "get in the middle" but at least maybe they'll starting THINKING. We certainly had alot of literature that got handed out.

I don't know how to post photos of the rally so we won't likely be posting any but please note, all the Zionists stood in one tight clump and we the anti-Zionists were spread out handing out literature, while some stayed close in to hear the speakers. We were looking for maximum impact, and no big need to speak to the choir. Our sound system made sure that everyone within a block heard the speeches, even the Zionists. Some stayed on the sidewalk to make a show for the people in cars, some went into the mall area, some lined the walkway of the Fed building and some listened to the speeches close in. Funny how it parallels: how Zionists herd together in their own little exclusive group shouting out lies and pro-Palestinians of all creeds and races spread out and tell the truth.

When us Zionists hold a rally, we are addressed by fawning Congressmen, Governors and prominent government officials. When you leftist-nazi animals rally you hear the bleatings of "Ute Walker, Paul Larudee . . . and a "Philipino college student"". No elected officials, no one with any influence, except maybe in the "Philipino" student organization at shithole community college. Another $14 billion for our Israeli brothers signed sealed and delivered. When the palestinkians see the IDF's newest attack helicopters coming, they'll shit their keffayas!!!!Brahahahahaahahaha!!!!!!!

F.Y.I. We were "herded" into a tight group by the police, it was not by choice. Had we been able to, I'm sure some may have even "spread out." When I wanted to stay in the middle I was asked to "choose a side." I support Israel and I'm Jewish. And you're human. Why must you verbalize hate and viscious attacks by trying to demonize- us and them. Those zionists. Dirty? Do you think we are not all feeling humans? We are Jews in America. That is going on in Israel by Israelis and Palestinians. What is going on here?

By the way "Zionists" and Jews(Is that what you mean?) are from every color of the Rainbow. The ingathering of the exiles has reached every continent and race, From Arab to European to Africa and yes to America. Many of us have relatives in Israel, who are directly impacted every day by suicide bombings and attacks, just like we and you have friends who are Palestinian and are affected. You are "all creeds and races." Where is your Tolerance? While I hate your message I am going to love you, because that is the message of Martin Luther King Jr., and non-violence, and Love. Peace

--"Many of us have relatives in Israel, who are directly impacted every day by suicide bombings and attacks"

Suicide bombings don't happen every day as this guy suggests but once a blue moon. Usually there is a "relative period of calm" (according to the media) lasting typically 4 to 6 weeks in which around 70-80 Palestinians are killed but no Israelis. Then when Palestinians do finally retaliate, it is breaking news on our television screens making it look as though it is a daily occurrence and that Palestinians committed a heinous crime without any provocation whatsoever -- just out of the blue because of their "anti-Semitism."

On the other hand, Palestinian women and children are routinely shot in the head by Israeli soldiers on Palestinian soil almost every single day.

So in the above Zionists piece, you have two lies/inaccuracies in one sentence. First, Israelis are not attacked daily. Second, Palestinians are attacked daily by Israelis.

Also, he went on and on again about some supposed "hate" while the post before his was by a fellow Zionist who was spewing real hate towards Palestinians.

You are the liar and the US media is biased against Israel. Israel suffers dozens of attacks on a daily basis. The vast majority of these attacks on Israelis go unreported in the US media. Most successful interdictions of suicide bombers go unreported. Most shootings, rocket launches and attempted infiltrations go unreported. Read http://www.jpost.com if you want the truth about the attacks the US media doesn't tell you about. Read http://www.honestreporting.com and http://www.camera.org to learn more about media bias.

--"The vast majority of these attacks on Israelis go unreported in the US media."

Don't make me laugh. Whenever there is an attack on Israelis (which is very rarely), it is breaking news. Palestinian children being shot in the forehead daily by Israelis doesn't even get a mention.

“Once in a blue moon” now, because Israel is actively pursuing them every day. They stop many more than happen, Thank God. Think back, march,02. A seder. Thirty people were killed observing a religious ritual, celebrating going from Bondage to Freedom. That's what MLK Jr. was talkin' about.
Peace in the Holy Land.
I was in Israel at a Seder at that time. Attacks of one type or another were definitely happening every day.

Now most attacks probably aren’t “martyr” bombings, but they’re “martyr” killings, where the perpetrator expects death. Including children, who may be drugged, but are definitely inculcated with the same hate that you are posting here. Lets stop hate, right here, in this exchange. And in my previous post I didn’t say I support attacks on women and children, or men for that matter.

It hasn’t been 4-6 weeks without an attack since the start of the 2nd intefada. Again, not necessarily
”suicide bomber,” but missiles from Gaza, a shooting, infiltrations and killings of families. Intentionally. Deliberate. Cold Killers.

By the way often a post refers to something earlier than the one immediately previous.
I see and hear the breaking news about Palestinians every day, as you do, I’m assuming, in fact multiple times a day, on KPFA, along with this site. Where else? It’s true you could get your rhetoric just as easily from an ultra- right wing group. Television screens- I believe I have seen Palestinians on T.V. before. I didn’t deny Palestinians are “affected,” or attacked. Many have been killed by other Palestinians because they were accused of working with Israel.

Look -many Palestinians don’t support violence in Israel, just like many Israelis don’t want violence in the West Bank and Gaza. I’m gonna’ guess if you get your news only from those places one might develop a skewed picture of the situation, as they actually have not covered, or even mentioned the most recent attacks in Israel. Could this be because the perpetrators and organizers of the attack targeted working class immigrants. For the third time. How does this fit into your fairy tail of social justice as practiced by Palestinians?

--"It hasn’t been 4-6 weeks without an attack since the start of the 2nd intefada. Again, not necessarily
'suicide bomber,' but missiles from Gaza, a shooting, infiltrations and killings of families. Intentionally. Deliberate. Cold Killers."

It almost always is around that much time between attacks. And not just suicide bombings but everything else you mention. In addition, Israelis aren't just "accidentally" shooting Palestinian children in the forehead. It is Intentional. Deliberate. Cold Blooded.

The latest "period of relative quiet" as the media likes to call it was between Nov. 21, 2001 up until last week. In that time, no Israelis were killed but around 50 Palestinians were killed.

--"The Israeli army has stepped up military operations in the West Bank and Gaza in the past six weeks, killing around 50 Palestinians and carrying out a relentless wave of house demolitions, incursions and arrests."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2629745.stm

Before that there was another "period of relative calm." And before that another one, etc, ad nauseum.

If you'd like to see pictures of Palestinians DELIBERATELY Killed in Cold Blood, I'll post them for you. If you want to see other dates of "relative calm," I can locate those for you as well.

--"..the same hate that you are posting here. Lets stop hate, right here, in this exchange.."

Again with the accusations of "hate." Where is this supposed "hate" you are accusing me of?

Those who support openly racist ethnic cleansing are the real haters -- not those who oppose it.

--"..the same hate that you are posting here. Lets stop hate, right here, in this exchange.."

zionists always ask to stop the ``hate`` when they Cannot win the ARGUMENT.

Exactly right. Everytime the Zionists can't win an arguement, they try to turn the tables and say stop the hate! They are so ludicrous! They don't seem to get that ETHNIC CLEANSING AND PERSECUTION CAN NEVER BE JUSTIFIED NO MATTER WHO IS DOING IT TO WHOM! That means, dear mentally-challenged Zionists, that it's NOT OK to continue the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian people (who are not the "right" religion) from their ancestral homeland to make way for a Jewish supremacist state! END OF STORY! It will never work! You must have JUSTICE to have PEACE. If you want peace, there must be JUSTICE and equal rights for all including the right to return of all the Palestinian refugees who must have their right to return to their ancestral homeland as according to UN Resolutions, International Law and world opinion. GET OVER the idea of Zionism already!
It's self-destructing as Nazism and it's leader Hitler did! The world is closing in on RACISM and injustice and persecution and that is exactly what Israel is all about now--- on a collision course with destruction. Better to TRANSFORM into a true democracy with equal rights for all and abandon the ethnic cleansing campaign and all religious and racial persecution of the Palestinians. NOW!!!!!! As Martin Luther King said "NOW is the time to make justice a reality for ALL of God's Children". What is there to hate about that???????????

So you think it's funny that that Zionists get "fawning politicians" to speak at your rallies! First of all, no one spoke at your counter rally on Wednesday. Second of all, when you do get speakers, it's because those "fawning politicians" are all bought off by rich Zionist Jews- duh! So obvious! With AIPAC directing all the Jewish PACs about which candidates to support with their $$$$$. And then we can't forget the Zionist-controlled media that crucify any politician who speaks up for the Palestinians. But this is beginning to wear thin. Americans are waking up to the threat of racist Zionism which has our current foreign policies dept. in its clutches. We the people intend to rid our government of all racists, including Zionists. We must do this by working for campaign reform (must have publicly funded campaigns http://www.fairelections.us and no contributions from special interest groups like Zionists), don't vote for any Jewish politicians, unless it is completely certain they are anti-Zionism, pressure all politicians every day about stopping all aid to apartheid Israel. Boycott Israel! http://www.boycottisraeligoods.org and http://www.divest-from-israel-campaign.org. E-mail Dubya every day to tell him no more aid to apartheid israel at president [at] whitehouse.gov and call the congresspeople every day at 1-800-839-5276 and tell them the same thing. We the people will win this war on racism!

Ahem!! You petitioned Barbara Lee, the laughing stock of Congress who represents constitutients who are the laughing stock of the nation, regarding taking up the Palestinian cause. Geez, if a dead end road doesn't go far enough out into the middle of nowhere for you, you grab the picks and shovels and forge onward into oblivion. At least you're entertaining.

To know if Palestinian sources are telling the truth just look at this report:

April 11, 2002

Eyewitness reports state that the IDF is now in the process of demolishing every home and structure in the Jenin refugee camp...Also the IDF has been seen removing the bodies of the dead and burying in MASS graves...They are doing this BEFORE they allow the Journalists and Media into the area...The IDF is currently in total control of the refugee camp...The refugee camp is NO LONGER VISIBLE from the dust and smoke caused by the mass destruction of every single structure in the Camp...Again the facts are:

There has been a MASSACRE of an untold number of inhabitants of the Jenin refugee camp...
The IDF is currently burying the dead in MASS GRAVES to cover their atrocities and War Crimes...
The IDF is NOW demolishing EVERY SINGLE structure in the camp...
The Jenin Refugee Camp, 1 kilometer by 1 kilometer in size, home to 15,000 people Is now being ERASED OFF THE FACE OF THE EARTH...
Hundreds of men have been arrested and taken away...
Sharon and his band of criminals MUST NOT get away with these horrible crimes...
WE OWE IT TO THE MEMORY of the brave people of this small camp to make sure that SHARON and his cronies stand trial in the HAGUE...

This is the reality of the Israeli operations. They are now "burying" the evidence in mass graves...Please forward and circulate...

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Anyone that visited Jenin since then know that what was demolished is just a small area and that all residents (excpet for 52 - most of them Islamic Jihad worriers) have been acounted for.

Well, what can we do to improve reporting from that part of the world ?

But not all Jews are Zionists. http://www.netureikarta.org for details.

Therefore all the Zionists at the rally were white Jews. NOT very diverse or rainbowic.
Sure Israel allows people from all around the world to become citizens of Israel AS LONG AS THEY ARE JEWISH. How discriminatory can you get??

Even inside Israel, where 92% of the land is officially designated for JEWS ONLY, the Eastern European Zionist Jews have much more status and run the show compared to the Sephardic Jews who are mostly Arab Jews.

And "secular" in Israel just means "godless" and "atheist", yet one can be Jewish and an atheist at the same time. This is where Zionists like to confuse people with regards to Judaism. To some Jews, Judaism is really just the tribe of Jews, the exclusive clique, and they don't believe in God. They refer to themselves as "secular". So that way they can try to claim that Israel is a secular state yet it is still a Jewish supremacist state!

Here in America, we have a secular government but that simply means that religion (and by the way, Zionism is connected to Judaism since all Zionists are Jews so it is a pseudo-religion) and state government are officially separated. And people can choose to believe in God or not and be whatever religion they choose but it's not supposed to affect governmental policies. However, Zionism, a pseudo-religious racist ideology, is running amok in our US foreign policy! Zionism out of US politics! Zionism out of US foreign policy!!!!!!

>And the proof of this is?

Zionism is a racist ideology.

But not all Jews are Zionists. http://www.netureikarta.org for details.

Therefore all the Zionists at the rally were white Jews. NOT very diverse or rainbowic.
Sure Israel allows people from all around the world to become citizens of Israel AS LONG AS THEY ARE JEWISH. How discriminatory can you get??

Even inside Israel, where 92% of the land is officially designated for JEWS ONLY, the Eastern European Zionist Jews have much more status and run the show compared to the Sephardic Jews who are mostly Arab Jews.

And "secular" in Israel just means "godless" and "atheist", yet one can be Jewish and an atheist at the same time. This is where Zionists like to confuse people with regards to Judaism. To some Jews, Judaism is really just the tribe of Jews, the exclusive clique, and they don't believe in God. They refer to themselves as "secular". So that way they can try to claim that Israel is a secular state yet it is still a Jewish supremacist state!

Here in America, we have a secular government but that simply means that religion (and by the way, Zionism is connected to Judaism since all Zionists are Jews so it is a pseudo-religion) and state government are officially separated. And people can choose to believe in God or not and be whatever religion they choose but it's not supposed to affect governmental policies. However, Zionism, a pseudo-religious racist ideology, is running amok in our US foreign policy! Zionism out of US politics! Zionism out of US foreign policy!!!!!!

>And the proof of this is?

Zionism is a racist ideology.

>And the proof of this is?

Zionism is a racist ideology.

And the proof of this is?

But not all Jews are Zionists. http://www.netureikarta.org for details.

Therefore all the Zionists at the rally were white Jews. NOT very diverse or rainbowic.
Sure Israel allows people from all around the world to become citizens of Israel AS LONG AS THEY ARE JEWISH. How discriminatory can you get??

Even inside Israel, where 92% of the land is officially designated for JEWS ONLY, the Eastern European Zionist Jews have much more status and run the show compared to the Sephardic Jews who are mostly Arab Jews.

And "secular" in Israel just means "godless" and "atheist", yet one can be Jewish and an atheist at the same time. This is where Zionists like to confuse people with regards to Judaism. To some Jews, Judaism is really just the tribe of Jews, the exclusive clique, and they don't believe in God. They refer to themselves as "secular". So that way they can try to claim that Israel is a secular state yet it is still a Jewish supremacist state!

Here in America, we have a secular government but that simply means that religion (and by the way, Zionism is connected to Judaism since all Zionists are Jews so it is a pseudo-religion) and state government are officially separated. And people can choose to believe in God or not and be whatever religion they choose but it's not supposed to affect governmental policies. However, Zionism, a pseudo-religious racist ideology, is running amok in our US foreign policy! Zionism out of US politics! Zionism out of US foreign policy!!!!!!

Greece

International Religious Freedom Report 2002
Released by the Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor

The Constitution establishes the Eastern Orthodox Church of Christ (Greek Orthodoxy) as the "prevailing" religion, but also provides for the right of all citizens to practice the religion of their choice; however, while the Government generally respects this right, non-Orthodox groups sometimes face administrative obstacles or encounter legal restrictions on religious practice.

The generally amicable relationship among religions in society contributed to religious freedom. Nonorthodox citizens have complained of being treated with suspicion or told that they were not truly Greek when they revealed their religious affiliation.

Status of Religious Freedom

Legal/Policy Framework

The Constitution establishes the Eastern Orthodox Church of Christ (Greek Orthodoxy) as the prevailing religion, but also provides for the right of all citizens to practice the religion of their choice; however, while the Government generally respects this right, non-Orthodox groups sometimes face administrative obstacles or encounter legal restrictions on religious practice. The Constitution prohibits proselytizing and stipulates that no rite of worship may disturb public order or offend moral principles. The Orthodox Church exercises significant political and economic influence. The Government, under the direction of the Ministry of Education and Religion, provides some financial support by, for example, paying for the salaries and religious training of clergy, and financing the maintenance of Orthodox Church buildings.

Restrictions on Religious Freedom

In 2000 the Ministry of Education and Religious Affairs rejected the application of the Scientologists for recognition and a house of prayer permit on the grounds that Scientology "is not a religion." The Church of Scientology is registered as a philosophical organization because legal counsel advised that the Government would not recognize Scientology as a religion. The Scientologists appealed the ministry decision with the Council of State and the case remained pending at the end of the period covered by this report, allowing Scientologists to operate as a non-profit association.

Minority religious groups have requested that the Government abolish laws regulating house of prayer permits, which are required in order to open houses of worship. Many provisions of these laws are not applied in practice, but local police still have the authority to bring minority churches to court that operate or build places of worship without a permit. A defrocked Orthodox priest in northern Greece continued to hold religious services in Macedonian (the language of the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia) in a meeting hall, despite complaints by Orthodox clergy.

Several religious denominations reported difficulties in dealing with the authorities on a variety of administrative matters. Privileges and legal prerogatives granted to the Greek Orthodox Church are not extended routinely to other recognized religions. The non-Greek Orthodox churches must provide separate and lengthy applications to government authorities on such matters as gaining permission to move places of worship to larger facilities. In contrast Greek Orthodox officials have an institutionalized link between the church hierarchy and the Ministry of Education and Religion to handle administrative matters.

Although Jehovah's Witnesses are recognized as a "known" religion, members continued to face some harassment in the form of arbitrary identity checks, difficulties in burying their dead, and local officials' resistance to their construction of churches (which in most cases was resolved quickly and favorably).

Several religious denominations, including foreign Mormons and Jews, reported difficulty in renewing the visas of their non-European Union citizen ministers and rabbis because the Government does not have a distinct religious workers’ visa category. As part of new obligations under the Schengen Treaty and the Treaty of Amsterdam, all non-European Union citizens face a more restrictive visa and residence regime than they did in the past. By the end of the period covered by this report, no progress had been made on issuing visas for foreign clergy to perform their religious work in the country.

Non-Orthodox citizens have claimed that they face career limits within the military, police, fire-fighting forces, and the civil service because of their religions. In the military, generally only members of the Orthodox faith become officers, leading some members of other faiths to declare themselves Orthodox. Few Muslim military personnel have advanced to the rank of reserve officer, and there were reports of pressure exerted on Greek Orthodox military personnel not to marry in the religious ceremony of their non-Orthodox partner, because they may be passed over for promotion. In addition, the rigorous training requirements to advance also require a solid educational background and fluency in Greek, posing an obstacle for many Muslims.

The percentage of Muslims employed in the public sector and in state-owned industries and corporations is disproportionately lower than the percentage of Muslims in the population, which many observers claim is due to the language barrier, not to religious discrimination. In Xanthi and Komotini, while Muslims hold seats on the prefectural and town councils, there are no Muslims among regular employees of the prefecture. Muslims in Thrace claim that they are hired only for lower level, part-time work. According to the Government, lack of fluency in written and spoken Greek and the need for university degrees for high-level positions limit the number of Muslims eligible for government jobs.

The approximately 10,000 member Muslim community in Athens (composed primarily of economic migrants from Thrace, Pakistan, Iran, and Iraq) is still without its own mosque or any state-appointed cleric to officiate at various religious functions, including funerals. Members of the Muslim community often transport their deceased back to Thrace for religious burials. In 2000 the Parliament approved a bill allowing construction of the first Islamic cultural center and mosque in the Athens area; however, construction had not started by the end of the period covered by this report. Members of the Orthodox Church oppose the cultural center, claiming it may "spread the ideology of Islam and the Arab world" rather than act as a simple museum. According to official sources, a total of 287 mosques operate freely in Thrace and on the islands of Rhodes and Kos.

Abuses of Religious Freedom

Church leaders report that their permanent members (nonmissionaries) do not encounter discriminatory treatment. However, police regularly detained Mormons and members of Jehovah’s Witnesses (on average once every 2 weeks) usually after receiving complaints that the individuals were engaged in proselytizing. In most cases, these individuals were held for several hours at a police station and then released with no charges filed. Many reported that they were not allowed to call their lawyers and that they were abused verbally by police officers for their religious beliefs. There were three new charges of proselytism against Jehovah's Witnesses; however, the Public Prosecutor had not filed charges by the end of the period covered by this report. Another three cases remained pending in the courts.

The courts have convicted one of the "elected" muftis 14 times in 5 years for usurping the authority of the official mufti. Most sentences were upheld at the appeal; the elected mufti chose to pay fines rather than serve time in jail. The other "elected" mufti, who was convicted in 1991 of usurping the authority of the official mufti, appealed to the European Court of Human Rights (ECHR). In 1999 the ECHR ruled that the conviction violated his freedom of religion and self-expression, but it did not rule on the question of his legal status as mufti. In July 2001, the Greek Supreme Court ruled that the muftis are innocent because they were not practicing official mufti duties.

Section III. Societal Attitudes

Citizens tend to link religious affiliation very closely to ethnicity. Many attribute the preservation of national identity to the actions of the Greek Orthodox Church during approximately 400 years of Ottoman rule and the subsequent nation-building period. The Church exercises significant social, political, and economic influence, and it owns a considerable, although undetermined, amount of property.

Many citizens consider an ethnic Greek also an Orthodox Christian. Non-Orthodox citizens have complained of being treated with suspicion or told that they were not truly Greek when they revealed their religious affiliation.

Members of minority faiths have reported incidents of societal discrimination, such as local bishops warning parishioners not to visit clergy or members of minority faiths and neighbors, and requesting that the police arrest missionaries for proselytizing. However, with the exception of the Muslim minority of Thrace, most members of minority faiths consider themselves satisfactorily integrated into society. Organized official interaction between religious communities is infrequent.

Some non-Orthodox religious communities believe that they have been unable to communicate with officials of the Orthodox Church and claim that the attitude of the Orthodox Church toward their faiths has increased social intolerance toward their religions. The Orthodox Church has issued a list of practices and religious groups, including members of Jehovah’s Witnesses, Evangelical Protestants, Scientologists, Mormons, Baha'is, and others, which it believes to be sacrilegious. Officials of the Orthodox Church have acknowledged that they refuse to enter into dialog with religious groups considered harmful to Orthodox worshipers; church leaders instruct Orthodox Greeks to shun members of these faiths.

In April 2002, vandals desecrated the Jewish Cemetery in Ioannina and the Holocaust Memorial in Thessaloniki.

Released on October 7, 2002

Is there any other kind of Zionist?

Zionists always try to change the subject when it comes to racist, anti-democratic, apartheid Israel! They will try to overlook the fact that over $6 billion of our tax $$$ go to Israel every year and now they are asking for an additional $12 billion in DC, at this very moment in time! Also our government gives $2 +billion to Egypt as hush money to keep them quiet about Israel's persecution of the Palestinian people! Our Zionist-dominated government sees fit to give Israel more $ than all of sub-Saharan Africa, Central and South America combined--- even though Israel is committing ethnic cleansing against the indigenous Palestinian people for a Jewish supremacist state--- and even though Israel is already the 16th richest country in the world!

There is absolutely no justifying our government giving any aid to apartheid Israel!

Down with Zionism here and everywhere! Down with all racism! We must not allow racist policies in our government nor for our tax dollars to support racist, apartheid countries guilty of ethnic cleansing for a ethnoc-supremacist state! And that includes Israel!

Zionists always try to change the subject when it comes to racist, anti-democratic, apartheid Israel! They will try to overlook the fact that over $6 billion of our tax $$$ go to Israel every year and now they are asking for an additional $12 billion in DC, at this very moment in time! Also our government gives $2 +billion to Egypt as hush money to keep them quiet about Israel's persecution of the Palestinian people! Our Zionist-dominated government sees fit to give Israel more $ than all of sub-Saharan Africa, Central and South America combined--- even though Israel is committing ethnic cleansing against the indigenous Palestinian people for a Jewish supremacist state--- and even though Israel is already the 16th richest country in the world!

There is absolutely no justifying our government giving any aid to apartheid Israel!

Down with Zionism here and everywhere! Down with all racism! We must not allow racist policies in our government nor for our tax dollars to support racist, apartheid countries guilty of ethnic cleansing for a ethnoc-supremacist state! And that includes Israel!

At the rally on January 15 (not the 16 as the caption wrongly says) where we protested Zionism in US politcies and want to Stop US Aid to Apartheid Israel, we did get some media coverage. Above is from the Jewish Bulletin.

Also the Hayward Daily Review printed a big photo with the caption "MIDEST ENCOUNTER": "Vince Sauve (center) waves a Palestinian flag as a group of Israelis confront him during a rally Wednesday outside Oakland's federal building to oppose the United States providing any more aid to Israel. Billions of American tax dollars already have bankrolled Israeli oppression of Palestinians, they contend."

The photo showed Vince with his back to the camera in his SUSTAIN teeshirt waving a big Palestinian flag and facing a group of shouting Jewish Americans (note how the paper called them Israelis! Then again, I guess they are Israelis too supposedly!) holding mostly Israeli flags, and one American flag along with the signs that were the same as the Israeli propaganda signs in BART.

Wendy,

You look like Hitler would be proud of you.

I am proud of me and that is all that matters. You seem to find it so hard to believe that Americans, such as myself, could really care that much about Palestinians. Americans do. Non-Zionists, that is. Get with it.

I care about Palestinians too.
I care about israelis too.
I care about all people - I wish and work for peace.

Do you think of yourself as "peace activist" - I am sure you do. So why don't you work for peace ? For bringing people together ? for calling on the terrorist to stop the mad terror that is hurting both Israelis and palestininas ?

You seem to focus on only one thing: Accusing israel of things it does not do. There is no genocide, there is no Ethnic cleansing - there is war in which civilians from both sides are the victims and this must be brought to am end.

As long as the Palestini terrorists see you as their support they continue in what they are doing. This is why Hitlre would be proud of you.

--"...there is no Ethnic cleansing..."

Really. I suppose if you are racist and consider Palestinians non-humans than that is a true statement.

Most Palestinians either support a two-state solution or a one-state solution in which they live as equal with the Israelis.

Most Israelis support kicking all the Palestinians out of the Occupied Territories and stealing that land for themselves. In fact, they are currently doing just that in a slow manner -- ethnic cleansing (aka slow genocide).

Palestinians cannot even live a normal life as the movie "Divine Intervention" so sadly shows. Two people in love, one living in Nazareth (in Israel) and the other in Ramallah have to use all sorts clandestine methods to meet because of the checkpoints. And the biggest joke is on us Americans because who have the privilege/opportunity/obligation of paying for Israel's ability to keep doing that and much worse. And that combined with our handling of Iraq has made us the object of scorn not just in the Arab world but in Europe and much of the rest of the world as well.

--"As long as the Palestini terrorists see you as their support they continue in what they are doing."

If Israelis really do want Palestinians to use non-violence, then why did they kick out Mubarak Awad who was trying to teach them Ghandian non-violence? Not only did they expel him, he was banned from ever going back to his hometown in the Occupied Territories.

Also, why do Israelis keep committing their most egregious atrocities on the eve of Palestinian unilateral ceasefires?

Israel does not want moderation on the part of Palestinians. They use horrendous provocations whenever they can to make sure Palestinians respond and then use that as an excuse for ethnic cleansing.

Even if the Palestinians were to use non-violence, the media would simply ignore the ethnic cleansing going on and Israel would keep killing them while in the media there would be talk of "a relative period of quiet" simply because Israelis aren't dying even as Palestinian children are shot in the head and abducted to be tortured by Israelis.

The only solution is for decent minded people -- meaning the Left and the Peace Movement -- to end all of Israel's aid till the laws there change and Palestinians get equal rights instead of laws which treat Palestinians as inferiors and are backed up by US made weapons given to them free of charge by us.

That's why I say "Talk to the hand!" It's like they are on another planet altogether. Thank God they are a minority! But too bad right now they seem to control so much, but not for much longer I am sure thanks to the internet and the opportunity we have to pursue campaign reform http://www.fairelections.us

And I just point Zionists in the direction of http://www.cactus48.com which of course they simply can't believe, so deep in denial are they about the ethnic cleansing that began on day ONE of Israel's immoral creation and continues up to this day, and we the people of the US are inadvertantly paying for.

Unfortunately for Zionists, ethnic cleansing is not considered kosher, shall we say, as it did back in "the old days". Than again, back in the old days, probably alot of people thought it was wrong then too, but had no way of organizing and didn't realize THE POWER OF THE PEOPLE. Now we have the internet. YAY!!! Now we have UN Resolutions and International Law that Israel will have to learn to obey the sooner the better.

idiot . . . gee John, no ethnic cleansing? What Israel didn't do? You seem to be all knowing. You know what Hitler thinks too. Interesting.

Ethnic cleansing is forcefull removal of a group from the place where the group lives. In the last 2 years have you seen any mass deportaion any truck, any convoy of Palestinian leaving palestine ?

How can you be against racism and zionism in the same time. Being aginst the right of a preticular race (the jewish people) to have a right of self detrmination is as of by it self = racism.

This poor worker walking in between the Anti-Zionists and the Zionists is just trying to get home after a hard day's work! At any rate, perhaps she got some of the literature we were handing out.
This photo appeared in the Hayward Daily Review. Note how the caption refers to the Zionists as "Israelis"! Pretty on target I guess!

Some of our group on the sidewalk. They were facing the Zionists.

Paul Larudee, a member of the International Solidarity Movement speaks out about the plans the Israeli government has to use the US (& Israel) was against Iraq as a cover to transfer the Palestinian population and / or worse.

The attendees of the Anti-Zionism Rally / Stop US Aid to Apartheid Israel Teach-in were scattered on the sidewalks all around, even across the street and in front of the speakers.

Hmmm.... an excellent article entitled "Brave Dave Takes on the Zionists" seems to be hidden or something. I wonder why? Why doesn't "one of the editors" like it? Does it make too much sense?
Zionism must be addressed honestly, and discussed honestly and challenged for what it is : RACISM!
Enquiring minds, if you want to read Dave's discussion on how Zionism must be fully addressed in the anti-war movement, do a search on "Brave Dave Takes on the Zionists" or just "Dave Kersting". I highly recommend it.

Fasinating all the posts by people named by "Anti-Zionist"
if this was truly a place where people cared about equality and justic there would be posts by "anti-zionist, anti-black nationism, anti-arab nationism, and anti islamic extreamist"
but IMC fans simply don't care about extreamism done by people whose skin color is darker than theirs.
how sad.

I find it "fascinating" how "x" reveals himself not ONLY to be a racist based on religion, but also a racist based on skin color! But then again, most of us already knew that about Zionists. After all, ALL the participants in the pro-Israel rally that countered our anti-Zionism rally were white. And just read The Lonely Planet's guide to Israel and the Palestinian Territories: they lay Israel's incredibly racist country out for all to see on pages 30 - 35. It's not a secret about Israel's racism. However, isn't it shocking when a Zionist inadvertantly reveals himself to be a total racist in every way, and then acts like there is nothing wrong with that? See how mind-boggling it is to deal with such blind hypocrisy? That's why it's next to impossible to reason with a Zionist, and it is time poorly spent. Better to talk to people who WANT to know the truth. http://www.cactus48.com

Well, I'll ask directly. What do you think you gain by posting under so many different names when it's so obvious that they're all you? Are you having an identity crisis, or are you just trying to make it look like more people agree with you than really do?

@%<

Concerned, are you? Why not get concerned about what matters?! Zionism out of US policies! Zionism out of Palestine-Israel!

That's okay, Multinym, I wasn't expecting you to do anything but evade the question. And you performed exactly as expected. We'll let the readers decide for themselves why you find yourself so unable to pick a name and stick to it.

@%<

Sure, sure. What a load of bull you spew! Go spread your Zionist propaganda somewhere else. In case you haven't noticed, most of us here are "onto" Zionist bullshit, and won't even bother debating it anymore.

Just read the info at http://www.cactus48.com in case you are at all interested in the truth. As well as http://www.netureikarta.org.

You don't need to debate it here. Just sit back and let the censors remove any opposing viewpoints as they always have.

IMC stands for freedom from dissent.

FREEDOM from Zionist lies!

That's what the Nazis said too. America was built on the principle of free speech. Even lies (like the anti-Israel posts here) are protected and should be heard.

Hahah, nessie's "enemies" are posting facts on a message board, and she wants to reject the facts that don't suit her misguided, illogical, inaccurate opinions. Boo hoo.

That is a valid point, and if that is the editors' view I can respect that. However, if that is the case, then the letter "I" should be removed from "IMC" and replaced with something else. Just in the interest of "Truth in Reporting," it should be noted that this medium is not independent, it is dependent on the views of those controlling it.

I will look for web forums hosted by organizations with different views and see if they remove articles based on their political content. I suppose I was misled in this case by the name of the organization.

he's a sheep shagging baby eater who worships the devil and pulls the wings off of kittens.

See:

http://www.indybay.org/news/2002/11/1546540_comment.php#1570562

Enough with this sh*t. Cactus48 is pure fantasy. I say, post a link to it, and be banned. It's worse than a neo-nazi site.

Quote from cactus48.com:

"As the preface to ONE NATION UNDER ISRAEL explains, lawyer and historian Andrew Hurley does much more than examine Jewish history. He explains -- at length and with "documentation," the methods by which the Jewish lobby in the United States controls "our" federal government. The carrot is money, the stick is public smearing, followed if necessary by deprivation of livelihood.

American and Israeli Jews collaborate seamlessly to bulldoze Congress and the entire executive branch into sending an uninterrupted stream of money, military hardware, and whatever else is wanted to Israel. "

Don't believe me? Check out the following -

http://www.cactus48.com/onenation.html

And y'all wonder why Jews are paranoid of the "anti-zionist" crowd......

Next they will blame the zionist for creating this site and placing links to it on SF indy. This site is pure anti-semitism, who ever keep forwarding to it does not help palestinians he/she just spread hate.

It seems like most of the posts to this site are by people who hate Palestinians. The weird part is that looking at the center column and most of the stuff created by the people who work for Indymedia, there isnt even that much about Israel anywhere on the site.

The cacatus web site is antisemitic (even though some jews took part in it) I have checked it it is full of lies. Those who want a balanced view of history can look at http://www.mideastweb.org (look for history) and on http://www.infoclick.org

cactus48.com is full of truth despite it being a jewish run website..

Anyone who thinks they can get a "complete" history from one source (regardless who it is) is only deluding themselves. History is not black and white; rather it is a collection of events and perceived views of numerous people before us. Thus, the only way to increase ones knowledge of the subject is to learn from as many people's experiences as possible.

Then again simple people like simple answers. So I really don't expect any cataus48.com supporters to read up on history for ANY other source. (might get too confusing for you simple folk out there)

For all you who put down http://www.cactus48.com, it is obviously because YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!

"cactus48.com is full of truth despite it being a jewish run website."

its amazing how some people are able to articulate their character so well and without even realizing it

This site is also run by jews - do you think it is also full of truth despite it being run by Jews ?

This site is also run by many people who are Jewish but what does that have to do with anything?

http://indymedia.org.il/imc/israel/webcast/index.php3 is mostly Jewish and Israeli and takes a strong stand on Palestine. But whatever, just as one should not expect a German to be a Nazi just because of something that happened in the country years ago, one should not expect someone who is Israeli to support Sharon.

http://indymedia.org.il/

Many of the soldiers do not want to be in control of Palestinian areas as much as the ISM protestors. The issue is not to tell the sodiers to move out - they are there for a reason. 14 out of 15 suicide bomers are captured or killed by israeli soldiers prior to being able to explode a bus or an israeli market.

See this for a good example of the cynical use the terrorists are making even in their own holi sites:

http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/02/1571692.php

So you want to end the occupation - tell the extrimist palestiniasn to stop the terror, not just 14 out of 15 that the soldiers stop but 100 out of a 100 and the soldiers will have no reason to be there.

I may not always use the same screen name, but I doubt if you do either, or many of the posters here. Furthermore, for you to think that I, multinym, am the only one who urges readers to read the info at http://www.cactus48.com or the only who is totally pro-Palestinian and for the one-state solution with equal rights for all including all the Palestinian refugees who must be allowed their right to return---- it's wishful thinking for you to think I am the only one who is posting comments in support of this. You are obviously someone who is in denial about Zionism and the truth about Israel.

By the way, have you finished reading the info at http://www.cactus48.com yet? Or can't you handle the truth?

"I may not always use the same screen name, but I doubt if you do either"

As I have said many times, I have never made a post to any IMC _ever_ that I did not sign with my very own name, Gehrig. The fact that you can't claim the same -- in fact, that you use so many different nyms that you can't keep track of them -- is one of those endearing signs of the netkook. If you have a hard time believing that, well, those with bad consciousnesses do tend to think the worst of others, don't they. It's called projection.

"Furthermore, for you to think that I, multinym, am the only one who [blah blah blah]"

And, as usual when your kookist posting practices are pointed out, you jam words into the mouths of those who expose you.

Surprise me, Multinym -- repost the post in which I claimed you were the only one who spammed your favorite multimegaspammed URLs. Repost the post in which I claimed you were the only one who supported the one-state solution. Go ahead. Do that and you'll have earned the right -- which you don't have now -- to lecture me about being in "denial."

Speaking of denial -- have you read UN resolution 1397 yet? You know, the one where UN Security Council supported the two-state solution without even a single no vote? Or will you continue to deny its existence, because it so completely contradicts your fantasies that there is broad international support for a one-state solution?

@%<

Afraid of the truth? HAHAH I am not the one who is unwilling to read dissenting views, I have visited catcus48.com (found it really funny actually) Have you visited any pro-Israeli site, don't think so, tell me who is scared.

"Including all the Palestinian refugees who must be allowed their right to return'

HAHAH, I love this, I hope you're not living in America, I am sure you are willing to leave and hand the land back to the Native Americans. Don't think so, don’t give a fuck eh? Well there is my response to the so called "Palestinian refugees".

NATIVE AMERICANS,
WHILE HAVE GOTTEN AN AWFUL DEAL ARE NOT REPEATEDLY USED BY TROOPS FOR TARGET PRACTICE.

While Native american society has been dessimated the Palestinian society is the FASTEST growing in the world. Between 1994 (oslo accord) to 2000 it has been the fastest growing ecconomy in the world (30% per year)

Over the last 10 years the population growth of Palestinians is 3.92/1000 per year. This is beyong India (1.51/1000) and Nigeria (2.52) and even Egypt (2.59)

"ARE NOT REPEATEDLY USED BY TROOPS FOR TARGET PRACTICE."

THEY ALSO VALUE LIFE AND DON"T SEND THIER CHILDREN OFF TO DIE, WHATS YOUR POINT?

"While Native american society has been dessimated the Palestinian society is the FASTEST growing in the world"

Good from them ! (thanks to EU support, to bad the Natives don't have any such friends)

Anyway what is your point? Native society can't be rebuilt (or you don't want to try) so they lose their rights to the land? Fine, but then shouldn't German refugees after world war to have the right to return also?

My point is you insist on rights for one group of people and not apply them to others. (Which for the record, is the core of racism by the way)

The point is that Palestinian were on the track for statehood and for improving their own lives. It was thanks to israeli and not thansk to the Arab countries who kept them as second/third class refugees all these years. But then the Palestinian got this idea that with terror they can get more than they can get by negotiation and that terror wave have brought destruction to the Palestinian and Israeli civilians.

So my point: I'ts the terror. Stop the terror stop supporting terror stop justifying terror and everyone's life will slowly improve. The aplestinian deserve a state of their own and they will get it. They will get excatly what they would get if they did not choose terror -maybe even without the terror israel would compromise more on security something it now learned the hard way it can not afford.

"The point is that Palestinian were on the track for statehood and for improving their own lives"

Before the Arafat/Rabin peace process (which was ended by a crazed rightwing ISRAELI fascist) there had been no movement towards statehood in years.

While there is constant demonization of the Palestinians there is little talk of Yigal Amir or the Israeli right that has at every step taken actions to prevent peace. The assasination of Rabin was far worse of an act than anything Palestinians have done before or sense yet thre was no crackdown on the Israeli right and many in Israel honor Amir...

While there is talk of extremism by Palestnians how much condemnation of settlers was there when in a time of relative peace (no suicide bombing were taking place back then) Baruch Goldstein gunned down more Palestinians than have ever died in a suicide attack since. Was there a crackdown on settlers? No, and Goldstein's grave is treated a shrine by the Israeli far right.

Muslim grave desecrated in apparent revenge for Goldstein shrine
January 3, 2000
Web posted at: 11:29 AM EST (1629 GMT) (CNN)

The Israeli army took down the shrine to mosque murderer Baruch Goldstein

JERUSALEM (AP) -- The grave of a Muslim cleric was found desecrated Monday with red paint and swastikas, an apparent act of revenge for the dismantling of a shrine to Baruch Goldstein, a Jewish settler who killed 29 Muslims worshippers.

A group calling itself "Friends of Baruch Goldstein" claimed responsibility for desecrating the grave of Izzedine al Qassam, who was killed in 1935 while fighting against British rule of Palestine, police spokeswoman Linda Menuhin said.

A shrine at Goldstein's grave in the Jewish West Bank settlement of Kiryat Arba was dismantled last week by the Israeli army. The shrine had become a magnet for Jewish extremists who called Goldstein a hero for killing 29 worshippers in a Hebron mosque in 1994 before being bludgeoned to death by the crowd.

In response to the dismantling of the shrine, Goldstein supporters threatened to deface the grave of Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin in Jerusalem. Police have posted guards at the grave of Rabin, who was assassinated in November 1995 by an ultranationalist Jew opposed to his land-for-peace deals with the Palestinians.

Qassam's grave is located in a small Muslim cemetery in the town of Nesher, near the northern Israeli port city of Haifa. The Islamic militant group Hamas has named its military wing after Qassam.

Menuhin said "Baruch Goldstein" was written on Qassam's grave, which was also defaced with swastikas. Three nearby graves were also desecrated, she said.

Nouman Barieh, a member of the Islamic Trust in Israel, said that there will be no revenge attacks against Jewish cemeteries.

"We are not interested in going down to this level," said Barieh on Israel radio.

Native Americans are not intentionally killing innocent people while yelling that America is theirs and current Americans have no right to be there.

Palestinian leadership did that to Israelis for about 30 straight years, and now while arafat pretends he doesn't want that to happen anymore, hamas and hezzbollah and other palestinian groups keep right on doing it. a hamas leader recently said that arafat hasn't helped them but hasn't told them to stop.

But for some reason, the liberals want everyone to forget how arabs tried to destroy israel and pretend it never happened, and that Arafat and Hamas and other key leaders in the Palestinian world are all nice guys who haven't done wrong stuff.

Look how America reacted after Sept 11. How do you think America would react if Native Americas declared an "Intifada" and spent day after day trying to do terrorist attacks while vowing to never stop them (like hamas is doing). Hamas is against "occupation" of Israel's very existence, not just the west bank and gaza.

Imagine if once a month some native american extremists took bombs and blew up restaurants and nightclubs in new york or chicgo or boston or anywhere.

Those are the kind of lunatics israel has to deal with.

regular palestinians who aren't lunatics are victims of what their leadership and extremist groups do, NOT of israel. Israel is responding to what they are given. Facts and history suggest this. Sorry if you don't let facts get in the way of your opinions.

OK, I don't think we are really that far apart. I agree with everything you said in your last post. I just believe that Arabs insisting on the right to return is no different then Nazi Germany's need for "Living room", as they merely a pretext for continued aggression.

I though you were using Palestine economic success as a justification for the right to return for their "refugee's". You weren't though, right?

Sorry, if I misinterpreted you, as your logic might have been flawless but your timing was definitely sub-par.

How come for the antiPalestinians posting here "extremist groups" means Palestinians. An Israeli Prime Minister was MURDERED by a Jewish extremist and Im guessing you thought that was somehow justified since Rabin must have been antiSemetic for supporting a peace process with subhumans.

Ariel Sharon says the new Israeli Government that he has been asked to form will end "Palestinian terrorism" and remove its "leader", Yasser Arafat.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2739143.stm

"How come for the antiPalestinians posting here"

I'm anti-Arafat, anti-Hamas, anti-Islamic Jihad, and anti-al-Aqsa-Martyrs-Brigade. Don't confuse that with being anti-Palestinian. I believe the Palestinians deserve a state, side by side with Israel, and they'll get it once they get serious about stopping terror attacks by Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade inside the Green Line and against civilians. Only in the peculiar rhetorical vortex of Indybay does this somehow make me "anti-Palestinian."

@%<

I notice you didnt mention the group that killed Rabin or massacred civilians in Hebron....

Thats because the people posting here are not representative of the Israeli public. Many in the Israeli public know the settlers are crazy and know Sharon is a war criminal but people are so afraid of the Palestinians that a lisght majority keep the cycle of violence going by voting for war crinimals.

Rabin was not killed by one person. There was a smear campaign against him and his death by the Israeli Right was assured. No Palestinian has killed an Israeli Prime Minister; the Israeli Right is more extreme than even Hamas. Whats scary is that the people who ran that smear campaign that lead to Rabin's death and the renewed cycle of violence are now the leaders of Israel.

"[Lea Rabin] said that her husband was so sure that his way of negotiating land for peace was the right way that he would not even look at posters and signs hung all over Israel that said Yitzhak Rabin was a traitor and a killer of Zionists.

Just two days before his murder, Lea Rabin said that her husband was asked if he believed a Jew would murder him.

"He was so innocent in really trusting that it couldn't happen to him, that it would happen that a Jew might murder him," she said. "It was a political murder and rarely has a political murder changed the course of history as this political murder has."

http://www.rice.edu/projects/reno/rn/19980625/rabin.html

more likely he didn't mention them because they're irrelevant. He was accused of being antipalestinian not antiisrael.

more likely he didn't mention them because they're irrelevant. He was accused of being antipalestinian not antiisrael.

To support Sharon is to be both antiPalestinian and antiIsraeli (he will only bring destruction on both communities)

" notice you didnt mention the group that killed Rabin or massacred civilians in Hebron...."

Neither did I mention athlete's foot fungus. Does that mean you get to insinuate that I'm pro-athlete's foot?

@%<

gehrig are you a pacifist or do you believe in self defense?

I just love to see you wrestle with your conscience. You see, it's obvious that you know in your heart, yes, you must have one, that the one-state solution with equal rights for all including all the Palestinian refugees is really the best solution. NOT the two-state solution, which I am sure, that you, with your great intelligence, know deep down inside, is truly a racist, apartheid "solution" and therefore really not a very desirable, or progressive solution at all. By the way, have you finished your assignment yet? http://www.cactus48.com, the whole thing! Start to finish!

Multinym: "You see, it's obvious that you know in your heart, yes, you must have one, that the one-state solution with equal rights for all including all the Palestinian refugees is really the best solution"

Thanks for letting me start my week with a laugh. Here's a hint: if you want work as a mind reader, you'll need a better audition that this.

The two-state solution has had broad international support since the UN partition of 1947, and -- as that UN resolution I quoted but you ignored explicitly demonstrates -- that international support has not flagged in the intervening years, having been reaffirmed less than a year ago. It has also had my support for more than twenty years, even in the Bad Old Days of the Bad Old PLO let by the unreconstructed Arafat.

Now, if the Arab nations and the Palestinian so-called leadership hadn't been so excruciatingly inept or uncaring about the plight of the Palestinian people, maybe the Palestinians wouldn't be trying for a chance at the same basic solution that was proposed more than half a century ago, and which the Arab nations torpedoed unilaterally, and which the central diplomatic history of the Israeli/Arab conflict in the last thirty years has been pretty much an Arab attempt to get back to.

And I'll be plainer than that: I have yet to see anyone I respect propose the one-state solution. Not only is it the ultimate in DOA -- as UN Resolution 1397 showed less than a year ago, not even Syria (!) voted against a two-state resolution -- but it's the manifestation of a peculiar double standard. It's three parts Pollyanna, three parts ruby slippers, three parts pixie dust, and one part belt bomb. That's why, as far as I have been able to determine, its only support is among anarchists, kooks, and the wa-a-a-a-ay far left. And neo-Nazis.

On your other point -- I've dipped into the "Origins" text at various times when it's been posted on various IMCs, and find it to be almost comically biased. In fact, that's the very piece I meant in a previous comment here:

(reposting my earlier comment) "One of the most telling comments I've seen on this board was about one of the often re-re-re-re-re-re-re-reposted URLs offering a supposedly unbiased account of the history of the Israeli/Arab conflict -- oh, sorry, in this board it's decontextualized into being only the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. Somebody said simultaneously that (a) it's really valuable but (b) the Zi-i-i-i-ionists know how to refute it. And I thought, "Wow. They honestly think that the problem with the piece is not that it's wrong, but that Zi-i-i-ionists know _how_ it's wrong. That says a lot about the difference between communication and dogma, doesn't it."

@%<

If I make you laugh, that's good. You make me laugh too. So we're even! The world certainly needs more laughter, especially now in these dark times of Alice in Wonderland, where what seems right is left and what seems left is right and "democracy" in Israel is really "racist, anti-democratic, apartheid" (quoting an Israeli Refusenik I have on tape). And so on and so forth.
Dear gehrig, your argument is simply not logical.
Don't you remember the initial injustice of when the United League of Nations (the fore-runner of the UN) which was made up only of imperialistic, rather racist European (mostly Christian, with some heavy Jewish influence) countries decided unilaterally to give away Arab land that really was not theirs to give away in the first place to Eastern European Jewish supremacist Zionists. That is: they gave away Palestine to some Jewish supremacists to create Israel, and this has resulted in ethnic cleansing from day one of the immoral creation of Israel in 1948 that is continuing to this very moment in time, and financed by US tax dollars. I'm afraid you haven't "dipped" deep enough into the "Origin of the Palestine-Israel Conflict" at http://www.cactus48.com to have grasped this initial injustice which must be addressed honestly and fairly and humanely.

As usual, unlike the mostly poor Palestinians, who are mostly Muslim and some Christian, the Zionist Jews have and always have had more money and strong connections to the powerful in America and England and in fact many Zionists now ARE the powerful in US government, so right or wrong (wrong in this case) they insure that America is skewed in the Zionists' favor: ie. support Zionist Israel right or wrong and in disproportionate amounts of US tax dollars, etc.

BUT as more Americans find out the truth about racist Israel, and the unjust persecution of the Palestinian people since day one of Israel's creation, the more Americans will protest any US money going to aid such an apartheid country.

Zionist Jews need to realize the inherent racist nature of Zionism and abandon it. They will be forced to abandon it eventually, so why not take the initiative?

Obviously, Jews on the whole are very intelligent, however, intelligence is not everything. Heart is more important. Justice is more important. Without justice, there will be no peace.

The two-state solution is regressive, and racist. The one-state solution is clearly the most humane and progressive solution. Equal rights for all, sharing the land, regardless of race, religion, ethnicity, or sex.

Zionism is just the flip side of Nazism. Another ethno-centric ideology that has no place in civilized, democratic society.

Just because right at this moment, some Zionist Jews have alot of influence, and some of them are so "liberal" as to accept the "generous" two-state solution, does not mean that this solution is the best solution, or the only solution.

Eventually, I am convinced that everyone will support the one-state solution, a truly secular, democratic country of Palestine-Israel, with completely equal rights for all, including all the Palestinian refugees.

The world will be a much better place as the result of this kind of progressive solution.

Whoo, This multiname really knows it all as well. Just listen to this: "Zionism is just the flip side of Nazism. Another ethno-centric ideology that has no place in civilized, democratic society."

For those who are tired from his refernce to the false web site I suggest a balanced web site run by both Israelis and Palestinians:

http://www.mideastweb.org

Again I've been forced by some asshole to have to point out that cactu48 is nothing more than a VERY BADLY designed clearinghouse for all things anti-semetic. It's just flat out, full of lies. What's more, it's so transparently innacurate that only someone who knowingly wanted to further the lies would suggest visiting it. Look, there are enough lies, hate, and disinformation coming form the pro-"palestinian" gutter. You don't need another shitty website.

I will never stop pointing Zionists in the direction of the most noble website http://www.cactus48.com where "Origin of the Palestine-Israel Conflict" written by the Jews for Justice in the Middle East grates on their minds like fingernails against a blackboard. Sometimes the truth hurts. But remember, the Truth will set you free.

Another good example of a bilateral site is http://www.bitterlemons.org. What makes it so interesting, I think, is that it demonstrates the range of thought within both the Palestinian society and the Zionist society; it doesn't try to say "The Palestinian thinks X, but The Zionist thinks Y," as if there were some defining dogma either side adheres to. There is no shortage of disagreement on either side. It's the kind of eye-opening dialogue that Indybay _could_ be if there weren't so many people simply trying to dress up the other side in a silly hat and throw rage at the resulting caricature.

@%<

K.I.S.S.

Sorry, you can call it dogma or what have you, and endlessly "debate" and "defend" Zionism and the 2-state solution, but just remember one thing:

The Golden Rule.

Ethnic cleansing is wrong no matter who does it to whom.

And here's another simple thing to keep in mind:
A true democracy is equal rights for all regardless of religion, race, ethnicity or sex.

"Ethnic cleansing is wrong no matter who does it to whom"

Yes, and that is why it is so infuriating that there are no protests- here, Europe, and especially in the Muslim world over the ethnic clensing of the Kurds in Iraq and Turkey. What a horrible double standard. The NYT magazine has an article about the demolishing of Kurdish villages that is currently taking place in Iraq... It is both funny and sad that this doesn't infuriate the world and all those self ritcheous activists. Are Kurds less human, less worthy than Palestinian? Why do so many "peace activists" refuse to advocate on their behalf? And by the indifference in the Muslim world one can only come to the conclusion that they think the life of one Palestinian is worth more than every Kurd on the planet. How tragic. Get out and protest that, GUPS!

In Sudan outright genocide against Africans!!

In Sudan outright genocide against Africans!!

Yes, but whose doing the cleansing? The same religious and ethnic group that is committing genocide of theKurds in Iraq. That same ethnic group that committed the massacres in Lebannon. Of course there is no angry over this because some people learn how to manipulate the world into believing that to hold them to the same standards as the rest of the world is paramount to hating them. Saudi Arabia is the king of this "if you don't happily go along with our facism which we cloak under the guise of relgion you are prejudice against all of us". It has suceeded wonderfully in silencing all their state funded injustices the world over.

doesn't mean it's OK for you to do it.

Also, stop trying to change the subject.

IF HITLER WOULD HAVE GOTTEN AWAY WITH THIS ARGUMENT WE WOULD ALL BE SPEAKING GERMAN.

DUH! Of course it's bad what's happening to the Kurds, but what Zionists like you so conveniently always seem to overlook, is that US tax payers are unwittingly paying for Israeli's ethnic cleansing and persecution of the Palestinian people BIGTIME!
And as for your other DUMB point, just as it seems that Jews get so much attention for the Holocaust that happened to them because another race group did it to them, the 20 million Chinese who got massacred by the communist Chinese never seem to get much attention. There goes another of your idiotic points!

Amen. You're right. It doesn't matter how many other atrocities occur elsewhere, or who suffered the most in history, the fact remains; the arab monsters who are being anything but "cleansed" continue to the shame of the U.S. As the country who gives THE MOST financial aid to "palestine" we need to cut all support for those monsters and make them learn that the OVERWHELMING majority of Americans are sick and tired of Islamic hatred and violence.
Demand and insist on FULL US divestiture of this palestine.
Just because there's evil elsewhwere doesn't mean we can turn our back on these subhumans.

U.S. cancels talks with senior Israeli officials on aid package
by repost Monday February 10, 2003 at 11:06 PM

I wonder if we'll see this report in our papers. I wonder if it's even true. I wonder if a covert behind-the-scenes deal took place.

Tuesday, February 11, 2003 Adar1 9, 5763 Israel Time: 03:14 (GMT+2)
Ha'aretz


By Lior Kagan, Moti Bassok and Aluf Benn, Haaretz Correpsondents
The United States requested Monday that a delegation of senior
Israeli officials cancel their trip to Washington for talks on an aid
package Israel is requesting from the U.S.

The officials, including head of the Prime Minister's Office, Dov
Weisglass and Director-General of the Finance Ministry, Ohad Marani
were to depart Tuesday night.

The trip was canceled because the Americans said that they were not
prepared at this stage to continue the discussions. No date was set
to resume talks on the aid request.

Israel has asked for $4 billion in defense aid and $8 billion in loan
guarantees over the next four years.

After several rounds of talks, estimates in Israel were that the
matter would be decided upon soon, with the U.S. responding
positively to Israel's request and most of the funds arriving by the
spring.

Before the cancelation, senior government officials in Jerusalem said
the United States administration asked to hold the meeting now, since
it wanted to submit the package to Congress for approval in the near
future.

The Israeli delegation was to show the administration the
government's economic program for the coming year and its proposals
for structural reform of the economy. According to the Israeli
sources, the loan guarantees will enable Israel to raise $32 billion
in overseas loans, which will be used for investment in
infrastructure, including roads, railroads, communications and
energy.

As with the loan guarantees that Israel received from the United
States in 1992, every dollar that Israel spends on the settlements
will be deducted from that year's guarantees. But the government
sources said these deductions will be minimal, since currently there
is nearly no government investment in the settlements. In the 1990s,
there was a great deal of investment over the Green Line, because
about one-quarter of the new immigrants who arrived during the decade
chose to settle there, according to one of the sources. "But today,
that doesn't exist," he said.


http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/261476.html

(PS I know the REAL ... wouldn't write the above post. Obviously some nutcase Zionist troll did. Ho hum.)

"Zionist troll"- label for someone who descents at IMC
"communist"- label for someone who descents in 1950's
sad how lefties can't see how corrupt they are... trying to limit free speech by this labeling is so sad yet so common among activists

(PS I know the REAL ... wouldn't write the above post. Obviously some nutcase Zionist troll did. Ho hum.)

sorry but we don't fall for your Mccarthism!!

"Zionist troll"- label for someone who descents at IMC
"communist"- label for someone who descents in 1950's
sad how lefties can't see how corrupt they are... trying to limit free speech by this labeling is so sad yet so common among activists

case in point.

That post is %100 true. Tell me whats wrong with it. WE DO financially support the palestinian monsters. Absolute fact. They are murderers. Absolute fact. What's the problem?

(PS I know the REAL ... wouldn't write the above post. Obviously some nutcase Zionist troll did. Ho hum.)

"nutcase Zionist troll did"
Yawn.
You need to think of another label... this one has worn thin.... like a child crying wolf it is the all purpose accusation used by unimaginative reactionaries whose sole purpose is to stife disent.

"Lerner's crime: he had dared to criticize ANSWER, an outfit run by members of the Workers World Party, for using antiwar demonstrations to put forward what he considers to be anti-Israel propaganda. That ANSWER objected to Lerner is not surprising. The WWPers in control of ANSWER are socialists who call for the revolutionary overthrow of capitalism, who support Slobodan Milosevic and Kim Jong Il, who oppose UN inspections in Iraq (claiming they are part of the planning for an invasion aimed at gaining control of Iraq's oil fields), and who urge smashing Zionism."

http://www.thenation.com/capitalgames/index.mhtml?bid=3&pid=385

Lerner Michael Lerner continues his racist attack after Tikkun wrote the following about our great success in pushing the war back in the historical march of January
18th, mobilizing about three quarters of a million people, :

"... the Tikkun community have put forward is that the mobilizations have
been run by a group called ANSWER, itself dominated by a communist sect group which is filled with hate toward Israel and wishes to see it dismantled. It has used
anti-war demonstrations to demean Israel and to picture the war in Iraq as a war for Israeli interests. "

If this and the attacks in the New York Times were not enough, Rabbi Lerner decided to attack the peace movement, even while the war criminal Sharon is running
the apartheid state of Israel and the Bush administration pushes for war. It is time for Tikkun to truly reflect whether it promotes values of supremacy and apartheid,
or values of universalist humanity. If you are not sure, read on... The articles speak for themselves.



> > Progressive Rabbi Banned From Speaking at Peace
> > Rally Because of His
> > Pro-Israel Stance
> >
> >
> > Rabbi Michael Lerner can not speak at the peace
> > rally in San Francisco, February 16th. That was the
> > response given when various groups proposed Rabbi
> > Lerner, thinking it logical to have him speak since
> > he is one of the most prominent peace voices in the
> > Jewish world.
> > But Rabbi Lerner was blackballed and
> > banned by A.N.S.W.E.R., one of the four organizing
> > committees for the S.F. demonstration expected to
> > attract hundreds of thousands. The reason: Lerner
> > had been critical of the way that A.N.S.W.E.R. has
> > used the anti-war demonsrtations to put forward
> > anti-Israel propaganda.
> > Lerner, editor of Tikkun magazine, is
> > himself an outspoken critic of Israeli policy. But
> > he is also a Zionist who believes in the State of
> > Israel and supported his son to serve in the Israeli
> > army in a combat union (the tzanchanim or
> > paratroopers). But Lerner and Tikkun magazine have
> > been equally critical of acts of terror by
> > Palestinians, and they have called for Palestinians
> > to follow a path of non-violence. In his 2003 book
> > Healing Israel/Palestine, Lerner calls for a
> > "progressive middle path" that is both pro-Israel
> > and pro-Palestine, and argues that the best
> > interests of each can only be achieved if the other
> > side also achieves its best interests.
> > Other coalitions supporting the rally ,
> > including the United For Peace and Justice and the
> > Not In Our Name, went along with the ban, arguing
> > that they had previously accepted as a condition for
> > participation in the demonstration the agreement
> > that if one of the groups vetoed a speaker that all
> > would have to go along. A.N.S.W.E.R. spokesperson,
> > speaking on the Brian Lehrer show of WNYC, said that
> > they would not agree to have a "pro-Israel" speaker
> > at their rally. Meanwhile, there are many in the
> > organized Jewish world who will not Lerner speak
> > because he is too critical of Israeli policy.
> > Beyt Tikkun synagogue, where Rabbi
> > Lerner serves as a rabbi in San Francisco, issued
> > the following statement: "Rabbi Lerner has urged us
> > to continue to support the demonstration for peace
> > on February 16th, and we will be there to show that
> > many Jews oppose this war. However, we do not
> > believe that had A.N.S.W.E.R. been criticized by a
> > major feminist or gay leader and then vetoed that
> > leader to speak at a demonstration that the other
> > coalition partners would go along with that. So why
> > should criticism of anti-Semitism and Israel-bashing
> > be treated differently? A.N.S.W.E.R. doesn't believe
> > that Israel has a right to exist. We are
> > enthusiastic supporters of Israel, even though
> > totally critical of its current policies. So why
> > should our voice of critique of A.N.S.W.E.R.'s
> > anti-Israel policy serve as a justification for
> > excluding our rabbi from speaking? This seems a
> > dangerous double-standard and conveys, probably
> > unintentionally, the message that somehow
> > anti-Semitism is not a significant issue for
> > anti-war protesters."
> > Rabbi Lerner said, "I'm honored that
> > some people wanted me to speak, and dismayed that
> > the specific reason I'm not allowed to speak is my
> > criticism of the anti-Israel bias of A.N.S.W.E.R.
> > But I believe that the message of peace is far more
> > pressing at the moment than the message of fighting
> > the anti-Semitism among some of the march's
> > organizers. "
> >
> >

The blackballing of the progressive Rabbi Lerner and the accusation of racism (!) leveled against him are perfect example of the progressive left at its most dogmatically self-defeating.

@%<

>"...example of the progressive left at its most dogmatically self-defeating."

"progressive left" is an oxymoron.

"dogmatically self-defeating" is an axiom.

You either are a Zionist or you are not! Rabbi Lerner, a fine man in most ways, is a Zionist. Therefore he is a racist. On top of that he has encouraged his son to be an Israeli paratrooper. That's as bad as a Palestinian father encouraging his son to be a suicide bomber.

Don't like Israel? Hate Ariel Sharon? Want to end US support for Israel? Choke on this - unless you live in Rep. Ron Paul's district, today your congressional representative either voted for or abstained on a big fat Valentine's day card to the Israeli government.

The House voted by an overwhelming 410 to 1 margin in favor of House Resolution 34, a resolution offered by Reps Henry Hyde (R-IL) Tom Lantux (D-CA), Ben Gilman (R-NY), and Eric Cantor (R-VA). The legislation congratualtes Prime Minister Ariel Sharon on his recent election and restates the United States' Commitment to a secure peave for Israel.

In his remarks on the House floot, Chairman of the International Relations Committee Henry Hyde (R-IL) stated, " the future willl surely bring many new challenges to Israel..it is critical the United States and Israel maintain an unshakable alliance to further our many mutual interests." Rauking Minority member Tom Lantos (D-CA) stated, "Mr. Arafat commands a so called "police force of over 40,000 well armed soldiers...Forty thousand well armed men on that small a territory are more than adequate to restore peace and stability." Rep. Eric Canton (R-VA) said. "I believe very strongly that the United States must maintain its commitment to Israel's security as fundamental basis of its involvment in the peace process...we need to make sure we stand with and support our Democratic ally in the region."

Please call members of the House who voted for H. Res. 34 at (202)225-3121 and thank them for their support for Israel at this critical time.

410 members voted to support of H. Res 34. Those who voted in in opposition, present or not voting are listed below:

Member of the House Who Opposed H Res 34: Ron Paul (R-TX) Member of the House who voted present on H Res 34: Nick Rahall (D-WV) 20 Members of the House did not vote on H R 34: Gary Ackerman (D-NY), Xavier Bacerra (D-CA), DAVID BONIOR (D-MI), MARY BONO (R-CA), CORRINE BROWN (D-FL), DAN BURTON (R-IN), LOIS CAPPS (D-CA), JOHN Cookney(R-LA), John Doolittle (R-CA), Chakah Fattah (D-PA), Richard Gephardt (D-MO), Rart Gordon (D-TN), Nita Lowey (D-NY), Cynthia McKinney (D-GA), George Miller (D-CA), SOlomon Ortiz (D-TX), Dana Rohrahaeher (R-CA), John Simkus (R-IL), Mark Souder (R-IN) Don Young(R-AK).

Full Resolution Text

Whereas the Government of the United States and Israel are colse allies and share a deep and reafirming friendship based on a shared commitment to democratic values;
107th Congress
1st Session
H Res 34

Congratulating the Prime Minister elect of Israel, Ariel Sharon, calling for an end to violence in the Middle East, reaffirming the friendship between the Government of the United States and Israel, and for other purposes.

In the House of Representitives
Febuary 8, 2001

Mr. Hyde (for himself, Mr. Lantos, Mr. Cantor, Mr. Gilman, and Mr. Ackerman) submitted the following resolution which was refered to the COmmittee on INternational Relations.

Resolution

Congraulating the Prime Minister elect of Israle, Ariel Sharon, calling for an end to violence in the Middle East, reaffirming the friendshi[ between Government of the United States and Israel, and for other purposes. Whereas the Governments of the United States and Israel are colse allies and share a deepa dn reafirming friendship based on a shared commitment to democratic values; Whereas since its establishment in 1948, Israel has fulfilled the dreams of its founders who envisioned a vigorous open and stable democracy; Whereas the centerpiece of Israeli democracy is its system of competitive free and open elections; Whereas on Feb 6 2001, the people of Israel elected Ariel Sharon as Prime Minister of Israel; and WHereas the election on Feb 6 2001 is the most recent example of the commitment of Israel to the democratic ideals of the freedom and pluralism ideals that Israel shares wht the United States;

Now, therefore, be it Resolved, That the House of Representitives

congratulates Ariel Sharon on his election as Prime Minister, and extends to him the best wishes of the people of the United States;

commends the people of Israel for reaffirming, through their participation in the elction on Feb 6 2001, their dedication to democractic ideals;

urges Palestinian Liberation Organization Chairman Yasser Arafat to use his influence and resources to see that violence in the Middle East is brought to an end;

calls upon the countries that neighbor Israel and upon the international community to respect the freely expressed will of the people of Israel and to be prepared to engage in constructive relations with the new Government of Israel;

reaffims the colse bonds of friendship that have bound the people of the United States and the people of Israel together through turbulent times for more than half a century; and

restates the commitment of the United States to a secure peave for Israel.

http://www.ourjerusalem.com/action/story/action20010218.htm

A jewish rabbi is banned to spea in the left rally i the US and in europe Germany and france refused to com eto the aid of Turkey - a nation of dark skin muslims in case of attack by Iraq. Small like racism to me. Both cases.

`America Loves Ariel Sharon and
unless you live in Rep. Ron Paul's district, today your congressional representative either voted for or abstained on a big fat Valentine's day card to the Israeli government`.

They feared for their livelihood for they would have been Paul well-stoned and\or Cinthia Mckineyed

The vote took place When Mckinney was still in congress and Welstone (RIP) was alive.

The antiZionists posting here are crazy people (and a small number of them) who have no bearing of the "Left" or anything else. I support a one state secular solution, I tend to side with Palestinians on most issues but I also think Tikkun does great work and is helping to expose Israel's wrongs in a larger way than the wingnuts posting here. I wouldnt be surpised is the people posting here have a goal of discrediting the Palestinians. All of the rabid antiZionists here seem to be white and Christian... and are on the religous side too making them rather atypical for radical leftists.

I wouldnt be surpised is the people posting here have a goal of discrediting the Palestinians. All of the rabid antiZionists here seem to be white and Christian...

Many Palestinians are Christians... weirdo...

Lerner is calling for people to not criticize Israel at the demos - he can't control what people will and won't protest. And ANSWER doesn't decide it either.

Personally I don't want to go to a sanitized rally that excludes criticisms of Israel.

ON THE LEFT

The Antiwar Anti-Semites
Peace protest organizers tolerate no dissent.

BY MICHAEL LERNER
Wednesday, February 12, 2003 12:01 a.m. EST

SAN FRANCISCO--Imagine my surprise when I found out that I am banned from speaking at a peace rally here this Sunday. As editor of Tikkun, the largest-circulation liberal Jewish magazine in the world, I have been an outspoken critic of the proposed war in Iraq. I have also unequivocally condemned Saddam Hussein's brutality and called for the world community to bring him to justice for crimes against humanity. But we at Tikkun do not believe that this war--in which thousands of Iraqi civilians are likely to die--will bring democracy to the Middle East. Instead, it is bound to increase the threat of terrorism to American citizens and provoke more violence. It will also fuel American fantasies of world economic and political domination.

So why was I being blackballed over the peace rally?

My sin was publicly criticizing the way that A.N.S.W.E.R., one of the four groups sponsoring the San Francisco demonstration, has used the antiwar demonstrations to put forward anti-Israel propaganda. An A.N.S.W.E.R. spokesperson, speaking on the Brian Lehrer show on WNYC, said that they didn't want a "pro-Israel" speaker at their rally.

continued at:
http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110003061

Here are some more shots of speakers at the anti-Zionism rally that took place in Oakland on Jan. 15 in front of Congresswoman Barbara Lees' office. Although she is admirable she needs to be educated about Zionism and the truth about racist, apartheid Israel which our tax dollars is propping up. Apparently when Sharon first got into office a couple years ago, she actually sent him congratulations! Horrors! How could she have? The Butcher of Beirut!! We will be meeting with representatives of her office next week to help educate her on these issues.

Back to our wonderful speakers, with their claims to fame noted:

LENNI BRENNER (top): Writer, Activist; Books include "Zionism in the Age of the Dictators", "The Iron Wall: Zionist Revisionism from Jabotinsky to Shamir"; "Jews in America Today", and "The Lesser Evil: A history of Democracy", and of course his latest "51 Documents: Zionist Collaboration with the Nazis". All available from http://www.barricadebooks.com. Here' s a great quote from "51 Documents": from Nazi Adolf Eichmann: " I often said to Jews with whom I had dealings that, had I been a Jews, I would have been a fanatical Zionist. I could not imagine being anything else. In fact, I would have been the most ardent Zionist imaginable." Just goes to show how certain minds tend to think alike. He writes that "Zionism betrayed the Jews in their hour of desparation."

STEVE ZELTSER (middle): Long-time activist on behalf of labor and against Zionism. Famously won a case against the Jewish Zionist group ADL (Anti-Defamation League) along with Jeffrey Blankfort and another bay area activist on the charges that the ADL was illegally spying on them.

DAVE KERSTING (bottom): Long-time activist on behalf of childrens' rights and against racism and Zionism; one of the few leaders in the bay area anti-war movement who dares to bring to the forefront the issue of Zionism and its role in the racist persecution of the Palestinian people.

"All of the rabid antiZionists here seem to be white and Christian... and are on the religous side too making them rather atypical for radical leftists."

That's because most of the "you aren't hating Zionists enough for me -- hate them more! hate them more!" posts here are coming from just one person, under a new name pretty much every time. And she's made clear that her Problem With The Jews is about more than just Zionism, although she insists -- natch -- "I'm not antisemitic, I'm only anti-Zionist."

And my understanding is that she's actually conservative on other issues -- she just finds a better audience for her "hate Israel! hate Israel!" posts among progressives than either the moderate left, the center, or the right. It's a disappointing paradox that some progressives, of all people, are surprisingly willing to wink away antisemitism in their ranks -- or redefine it out of existence with word games -- rather than confront it for what it is.

@%<

"Personally I don't want to go to a sanitized rally that excludes criticisms of Israel."

But apparently it's okay to go to a rally that's been sanitized of the presence of Rabbi Lerner?

@%<

I loved the pictures of the "anti-zionism" rally - four bored whites guys will their hands in their pockets. Look likes a LaRouche rally. Keep up the good work.

Sorry to burst your little bubble, AGAIN, gehrig, but there are many who are making posts very similar to mine--- nessie, ..., Joseph Anderson, bov, Justin Raimondo, just to name a few. I know you feel the need to comfort yourself thinking it's all one person, me, making anti-Zionist posts, but guess whhaat? You're wrong! (shock!)
Also, you seem to have the anal tendency and need to pidgeonhole people as right or left or conservative or liberal--- another one of your transparent need to feel in control and like you've got it all down pat--- but guess whaat? You don't! (shock!) Also, apparently it seems that you feel the need to claim that someone who is anti-Zionism must also be anti-Semitic which seems to comforts you too, as it justifies your obvious support for the blatantly racist ideology of Zionism. You just can't seem to admit to yourself that you are a racist.

.... "nessie, ..., Joseph Anderson, bov, Justin Raimondo" what ever name you use it does not worth replying - you are obvioulsy a racist and give the peace camp a bad name

I could say the same about you, coward!

"Sorry to burst your little bubble, AGAIN, gehrig"

Here's a hint: ya can't do _again_ what you haven't managed to do the first time, multinym. You have a very distinctive, shrieky style, a standard collection of rhetorical tropes you substitute for in-depth knowledge, and your own set of content tics. That gives your posts a distinctive fingerprint. Which is why your inability to pick a name and stick to it is so comical in the emperor's-new-clothes sense.

And I notice that your reading comprehension remains as bad as always. For the second time in two days I find myself correcting you over the words you have jammed into my mouth. Again, I've never said you're the only anti-Zionist poster here, only the most prolific and the least substantial.

I'd be perfectly happy to recommend a good dictionary, so that you don't make this mistake for a third time in a row.

There's a very easy way to avoid this kind of criticism in the future, by the way. Do what I do: use a single, consistent signature. It's a sign of rhetorical maturity, just as multinymness is a sign of kookery. Nessie -- as far as I know -- sticks to one handle, and Raimondo signs his stuff with his own name. They aren't playing the same juvenile name games you are.

multinym: "another one of your transparent need to feel in control and like you've got it all down pat"

Not much to say to that except maybe "Calling Dr. Freud! multinym's projecting again."

I know you'd _like_ to believe you're speaking for the masses, that they're all rallying behind you, and I know that you constantly _claim_ to be speaking for the masses, but there's this thing called reality, and it's calling you.

Here's something else you've jammed into my mouth: the belief that anyone who criticizes Israel must inherently be antisemitic. I don't believe that for a minute, athough it does seem to be a common trope for folks like you to attribute to The Mind of the Zionist.

But I _do_ know for a fact that there are antisemities who publicly try to disguise their stance as simple "anti-Zionism," and are perfectly happy to help you play "let's demonize the Zionist *wink wink*", that as long as folks like you are willing to turn a blind eye to it, the moral capital of your stance is correspondingly diminished.

Your own stance was seriously compromised, for example, when you made that comment about how "Zionist Jews think they can buy everyone out, and this is not news. It's been going on since Biblical times. "

Got that? "Since Biblical times." In other words, your problem with the Jews _predates_ Zionism, which makes it a little hard for anyone whose brains aren't made of tapioca to think that your problem with Jews is _only about_ Zionism.

The incident with the banning of Rabbi Lerner is a perfect example of a progressive misfire. That incident was no less an embarrassment to the peace movement than you are.

@%<

"The incident with the banning of Rabbi Lerner is a perfect example of a progressive misfire. That incident was no less an embarrassment to the peace movement than you are. "

That incident seems to have more to do with Lerners stance on the IAC and WWP than anything to do with Israel. The IAC would also have blocked Tod Gitlinand other antiwar figures who have denounced the organizers.

I personally think Lerner should have been allowed to speak if there are speakers, but the speakers at these things are boring enough anyway (and hard to hear in a crowd of 100,000+) that it doesnt really matter. What matters is people showing up and showing the Bay Area's opposition to the war. Its hard for groups to get along and the IAC has so far done an ok job of not pissing too many people off which is hard considering the diversity of the antiwar movement.

>Anti-Zionism Rally in Oakland a Success!

I couldn’t agree more. Right after this rally took place, Zionism vanished. How did they do it?

>Nessie -- as far as I know -- sticks to one handle

Ooops! He has several, including debate coach, history buff,…. But his writing style gives him away. Multidimentional he’s not. Demented? That a different story.

And don’t forget the need for TLW.

Michael Lerner: Should He Speak?

CounterPunch's inbox is suddenly clogged with e-traffic about Michael Lerner being banned from speaking at the San Francisco rally. We got one list of protesting signatories studded with notables and miscreants, like Eric Alterman who normally spends his time deriding the antiwar protests, just like Marc Cooper, who clearly sees a "Let Lerner Speak" campaign as a good way of smearing ANSWER and NION (Not in Our Name).

My initial reaction was to say to Jeffrey St Clair that any move to keep Lerner from pouring out his usual freshets of idiocy is sound by definition, but on mature consideration I counsel the organizers of the San Francisco rally to slot Lerner in at some point in the proceedings

I'm quite prepared to believe that Lerner, a relentless self-promoter, has managed to piss off everybody with egocentric posturing and unity-wrecking maneuvers, and maybe his plan from the start has been to engineer a situation in which he can howl that Jew-haters have laid him low. But let the guy speak anyway. Mostly people don't listen to speeches, and if you suddenly hear Lerner's voice disturbing the harmony of the great convergence, move into a drumming circle and blot the guy out.

Every now and again Lerner writes to CounterPunch asking for our support when he'd been attacked by the neocons. Tikkun has published some good stuff such as reports by Tanya Rinehart, one the best reporters and commentators in Israel. He's a flake, but on Israel, considering the mostly awful spectrum of opinion here, he's often been constructive. Look at other American-Jewish publications and you'll see what I mean. For a good exchange which excitingly revealed Lerner's distinct limitations I refer you to his debate with Salman abu-Sitta on the right of Palestinian return.

Lerner and Hillary Clinton had a thing going for a brief moment, and then she, like so many others, realized that having Lerner around the place was like having a badly trained retriever, either jumping up and licking your face or making a mess in the corner. It reminds me somehow of Norman Podhoretz back in the days of Camelot, who conceived a passion for Jackie Kennedy and came to believe that somehow, against all the odds, she secretly reciprocated his yearning. Eventually, at some cocktail party he cornered her and pressed his suit. She gazed at him as though he was a centipede on her sleeve, and said icily, "Why, Mr Podhoretz, just who do you think you are?" Not long thereafter the jilted Poddy began his long trek to the right.

I'm so flattered that you analyze my every word. It's so nice to be the center of your attention. Why, I feel positively like I am Eliza Doolittle and you are Professor Higgins in "My Fair Lady"! Such fun! It happens to be one of my favorite plays!

At any rate, really, my dear gehrig, my true friends know I'm just against Zionism, not Jews. Of course, I can't control what you think, so you will keep on thinking just what you like to think. That's obvious!

By the way, I think the flap about Rabbi Lerner was great because it brings more attention to the whole Israeli/Palestinian issue, which Zionists love to just sweep under the rug. The more open debate about it the better as far as I'm concerned!

"I'm so flattered that you analyze my every word."

Hardly. You repeat the same damn thing over and over and over and over and over so many times in so similar a manner that a goldfish could be trained to recognize it. You haven't said anything truly new since the week you arrived.

"Such fun! It happens to be one of my favorite plays!"

I always preferred "Pygmalion."

"my true friends know I'm just against Zionism, not Jews."

Funny, the Holocaust denier David Irving says the same thing.

@%<

""my true friends know I'm just against Zionism, not Jews."

Why don't you explain to us (we are your friends - aren't we) what is your final solution to the Jewish problem ?

If zionism is not the answer and you do not want to give the hebrews (The Jewish nation - not the religion) the same right every nation has - where do you want the jewish people to be ? Should they all migrate to the US ? Should they remain where they are (so called "one state final solution") while Israel is becoming one more Arab country ? How long it would take before they would be cleansed from israel like they were cleansed from every Arab country ?

Do you understand that your being anti-zionist is making you a supporter of Ethnic Cleansing ? Zionsim mean having a Jewish homeland. Anti-zionism mean removing the jews from their homeland.

The best solution (as you know, NOTHING is ever FINAL, or very rarely) is that UN peacekeeping troops would oversee the transformation of Israel to Palestine-Israel, which would be a true secular democracy with equal rights for all including all the Palestinian refugees. Apartheid ended in S. Africa and it will in Palestine-Israel.

Here in America to ensure one man/one woman = one vote, we will have only publicly funded campaigns, and it will be illegal for special interest groups such as Zionist Jews, oilmen, tobacco,etc. to contribute (bribe) our politicians.

O SOMEBODY STOP ME! I'M MAKING TOO MUCH SENSE! ;-)

While there are a few rabid jewhaters here on Insymedia, the real world is full of people who love Israel. Here is a link to a recent Congressional resolution "Commending the people of Israel for conducting free and fair elections and reaffirming the friendship between the Governments and peoples of the United States and Israel" - it passed the House by a vote of 411-2. Rather than waste your time arguing with a fascist, take a few minutes to call or write your congressperson and thank them for their support of the people of Israel.

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d108:HE00061:@@@L&summ2=m&

there is no such thing! quite clearly arabs don't want a peaceful democratic secular democracy, if they do let them form 1 with Jordan and Egypt. they have nothing in common with Israel and I see absolutely no reason why they should be forced to unite.

and you supid skinheads, if you get your wish and destroy Israel where do you think those Jews are going to go? Europe?? Iraq??? no! AMERICA OF COURSE! How will you like that! lol. how ironic that would be!

there is no such thing! quite clearly arabs don't want a peaceful democratic secular democracy, if they do let them form 1 with Jordan and Egypt. they have nothing in common with Israel and I see absolutely no reason why they should be forced to unite.

and you supid skinheads, if you get your wish and destroy Israel where do you think those Jews are going to go? Europe?? Iraq??? no! AMERICA OF COURSE! How will you like that! lol. how ironic that would be!

there is no such thing! quite clearly arabs don't want a peaceful democratic secular democracy, if they do let them form 1 with Jordan and Egypt.
they have nothing in common with Israel and I see absolutely no reason why they should be forced to unite.

and you supid skinheads, if you get your wish and destroy Israel where do you think those Jews are going to go? Europe?? Iraq???
no! AMERICA OF COURSE! How will you like that! lol. how ironic that would be!

By the way, if the Israelis who can't stand the idea of living as equals in the completely democratic, secular one-state solution including with all the Palestinian refugees want to come live as American citizens instead, that would be just fine with me! Seriously! That doesn't bother me one bit! The thing that bothers me is my tax dollars, even one cent, going to support racist, anti-democratic, apartheid Israel which is GUILTY of committing ethnic cleansing and persecution of the Palestinian people since DAY ONE of it's immoral creation by the United League of Nations, and this injustice in continuing right up to this very exact moment in time!!!

******

"Truth: Exposing Israeli Apartheid" Newly Edited Version Now Available

By Wendy Campbell

The premiere of my documentary "Truth: Exposing Israeli Apartheid" at La Pena Cultural Center in Berkeley on August 22 drew a full house. However, the main complaint was "It's too long!" I guess one hour and forty seven minutes of that heavy subject is too much for most people to bear. Many people had red eyes at the end of the show. It is brutal as is its subject matter. So I edited it down to 57 minutes, and the result is a much more impactful, digestible experience.

When I made the film, I had no formal training in film-making, so another complaint is that the sound could be better in some places and I should have used a tripod more often. So I have been taking film classes to brush up on my technique. The next film will be much better technically, I'm sure!

Despite the technical shortcomings of the documentary, many people have praised it and feel it is of great importance. Obviously the film has a message and a mission, built right into the title of it "Truth: Exposing Israeli Apartheid".

I hated to edit the film but I had to, and so I edited out all of Rabbi Michael Lerner's talk, because of his emphasis on the two-state which does not jibe with my belief that the solution of a completely democratic, secular one-state solution with the return of all the Palestinian refugees is the most humane and progressive solution of all.

I also had to edit out Jess Ghannam's talk on Palestinian Solidarity Day, because the footage was just too poorly lit.

But what remains is very powerful. Penny Rosenwasser of the Middle East Children's Alliance (http://www.mecaforpeace.org) is prominently featured with slides from her show "Face of the Occupation", a talk by an Israeli Refusenik, footage from the Gaza Strip by Donna Wallach, Adam Shapiro from International Solidarity Movement, commentary about the history of the conflict by myself, and footage from the first various pro-Palestinian rallies in the Bay Area round out the film. The documentary makes a solid case for validating the urgent need to fairly address the injustices that the Palestinians are suffering under the Israeli government with the massive financial and political aid from the United States. After viewing this documentary, there can be no doubt whatsoever that Israel is indeed a "racist, anti-democratic, apartheid regime", as stated by an Israeli Refusenik.

The tape is available for a $20 donation to Wendy Campbell, PO Box 10458, Oakland, CA 94610 and please remember to include the address you want the tape sent to. Shipping and handling included. The proceeds are going to mass distribution of Truth to film festivals, and influential people such as political leaders.

Pictured above is Jeffrey Blankfort and myself on the night of the premiere. He spoke before the screening on the topic of "Washington: Israel's Most Important Occupied Territory".
For more information, contact truthaboutisrael [at] earthlink.net

To answer your question about anti-Zionism-- does it mean I am against Jews having a homeland in Palestine-Israel? No, I am NOT against Jews having a homeland in Palestine-Israel, BUT NOT to the exclusion of the Palestinians. It is their homeland too! Get used to it! Just like Jews have a homeland here in America. America is MY homeland TOO. DUH! Can't you understand the idea of a multicultural homeland? Is that just too much for you to comprehend? To get your mind around? SHARING?

Sorry if I get a bit shrill about this but I know Jews are intelligent but Zionist Jews have this real dumb spot in their brain! Helloooo!

Bravo. Well done!

Sorry, gang (fresca, blah, and ali khan). I've heard all your Zionist arguements before, and I'm just not buying it! No more of my tax dollars or even a single cent to Israel until it's transformed into a true democracy with equal rights for all including all the Palestinian refugees. That's it!

And hey, if America is not your homeland, then, PLEASE, by all means, go to IsraHell! Be my guest! Don't expect ME to pay for it!

Bye bye now!

Because they control less than 1% of the land in the middle east. Because they refuse to be destroyed without a fight. Because they hold elections. Becuase they have judicial oversight of their government. Because they have a free press. Because they allow freedom of religion. Because they live by the rule of law. Because I need someone to hate.

Oh, my sides hurt from laughing! I loved the pictures of the fierce Zionist Nazi rally--and all the proud demonstrators that were there! (All 15 of them!)

Let me ask you a question--has there EVER been a Palestinian state? EVER? NO! The Jews have a God-given right to the 1% of the land they OWN.

If the Palis are so desperate for their own state, why don't they carve it out of Jordan, or Syria? And where are their Arab brothers in all of this? Why don't THEY give them some financial assistance? Oh wait, they do--what is it now, $25,000 to blow themselves up along with as many Jews as they can take with them?

Maybe Saddam isn't so dumb in paying for the Palistinian terrorists to blow themselves to hell--he gets rid of Jews AND Palistinians at the same time!

"I loved the pictures of the fierce Zionist Nazi rally--and all the proud demonstrators that were there! (All 15 of them!)"

Yeah, I'll bet Sharon and Netanyahu couldn't sleep when they heard about the massive Oakland rally. I'd imagine more people visit the average restroom in a McDonalds in ten minutes of a lunch hour.

See, that's the thing. I read Wendy's posts because I find them very reassuring. If _that_'s the face of anti-Zionism, then ...

But Wendy is convinced she's the wave of the future. Too bad the future has already waved bye-bye to the one-state solution she proposes, and too bad the vast majority of Americans have waved bye-bye to her demonize-Israel approach.

Both the Rabbi Lerner flap _and_, earlier, the Rainbow Grocery flap demonstrated just how little traction, outside the circles of those playing more-radical-than-thou I've-read-more-Chomsky-than-you, the idea of simply shrieking Wendy-style really has in the real world.

It's not just the one-state solution that's a non-starter; it's the attempt to wink away or even ennoble Palestinian terrorism as something that Israel has somehow deserved. That flies in the face of historical reality, and

On the other hand, sometimes her attempts at being condescending are very funny. For example, the Israeli stance is and has been from the start that Israel live side by side with a Palestinian state. That was the whole idea of the UN Partition Plan, every major peace initiative since then, Camp David, Oslo, you name it. Yet Wendy thinks the problem with Israel is that it doesn't understand "SHARING" (her caps).

@%<

You wait and see. The last laugh will be on Zionists. I have no doubt about that! I'm complimented at least that you are concerned enough about the anti-Zionism rally to keep commenting on it and to have even sent a Zionist contigency to the anti-Zionism rally! That added great drama! Thanks guys! Plus we got coverage in three newspapers that I know of -- the Jewish Bulletin, the Hayward Daily Review, and the American Free Press. Way to go! You guys helped, so thanks! Any publicity is good publicity! Keep it going!

Happy Valentine's Day! And remember to K.I.S.S. ! (you know, Keep It Simple, Stupid!)

All you need to remember is The Golden Rule (not the Gold Rules) and LOVE your neighbors, including Palestinians, as yourselves, and you'll be fine!

Wendy, just curious, do you thing that the United States would be better off without the Jews and their Zionist agenda? Come out and say it if you mean it!

I like Jewish people, but I don't like Zionist ideology. In fact, I cannot and will not tolerate Zionism in US politics and continue to work to expose Zionism as the blatant racist ideology that it is. Many Jews do not adhere to Zionist ideology and in fact even burn Israeli flags at rallies protesting the racist ideology of Zionism. Please refer to http://www.netureikarta.org.

I think American Jews have certainly contributed greatly to America in many admirable ways, yet on the other hand, the American Jews who do adhere to Zionism and its ideology of a Jewish supremacist state that treats non-Jews like 2nd or 3rd class citizens at best, are not being true to American ideals as expressed in the Constitution, the Bill of Rights and the Declaration of Independence. I think it is entirely selfish, self-serving, and anti-American for American Jews to think that any of our tax money should go to support the "racist, anti-democratic, apartheid regime"* in Israel which not only drains our country of tax dollars that could be better spent here, but also puts America in the line of fire from the inevitable blowback from financing Israel's immoral ethnic cleansing and persecution of the Palestinian people, denying them equal rights in their own homeland because they are not Jewish.

* "racist, anti-democratic, apartheid regime" is how an Israeli Refusenik soldier describes Israel and I have it on tape.

If israel really understood the concept of Land sharing they would return the seventy eight percent of land they live on and retreat to the remainder of the land..
would they not???

If you take a look at the land under the British Mandate (as ratified by the League of Nations) to be the Jewish Homeland under the Balfour Declaration, you'll see that roughly three quarters of it went to Jordan, and a good chunk of the rest is the West Bank.

The UN Partition Plan of 1947 was also based on the idea of sharing the land, as two states, between the Palestinians (although they were not yet called that) and the Israelis (although they were not yet called that).

So it's a rather selective memory that says that, although Israel is only about 20% of what the League of Nations promised, the rest all going (or going to be going) to Arab states, the problem is that Jews need to learn to share.

@%<

The fact is, from 1948 to 1967 arabs could have formed a state for the Palestinians (or Palestinians could have formed a state for themselves), but they just attacked Israel.

Then, lets review Palestinian "leadership"
1960's - Palestinian leadership declared death on israel, refused to agree to stop attacking israel, refused to even consider peace.
Naturally, Israel is not going to unoccupy land while that's going on.

1970's - Same as above. Israel can't unoccupy while palestinian leaders are still calling for israel's death.

1980's - same as above. Israel still can't unoccupy while palestinian leaders are still calling for israel's death.

1990's - part of the 1990's it was the same as above
1990's - the other part of the 1990's, after 30 years of trying to kill the jews, arafat finally realized that it wasn't working, and pretending to be a nice guy and appealing to world popular opinion seemed like the better way to go, so he finally agreed that he didn't want to kill the jews anymore (HOW NICE OF HIM!)... the problem was that while he ALLEGEDLY didn't want to anymore, his military organization, hamas, hezzbollah and other terrorist organizations continued right on that path, calling ALL of palestine/israel "occupied" and claiming they want "liberation," but their "liberation" meant killing israel off.

But sure, (SARCASM) lets blame Israel for not being nice and laying down and dying, like they've been politely asked to do!

"racist,"

this "term" or as I prefer "buzz word" can be used to describe any nation at some time.

"anti-democratic,"
And this term can not be applied to which Arab state?

Apartheid regime"
Again what rights do Arabs in Islamic countries have that their counterparts in Israel lack? I know Arab countries are not "apartheid" as they already "ethnically cleansed their Jewish populations. Since you never speak out against the "crimes" of Arab nations, would ethnic cleansing be an acceptable solution for the so called "apartheid" in Israel?

"this how an Israeli Refusenik soldier describes Israel and I have it on tape"

Well if one Israeli soldier thinks so then it must be true, right?

"lets blame Israel for not being nice and laying down and dying, like they've been politely asked to do!"

Who else are they going to blame? PA, Hamas, Hezzbollah. These groups would tell them to fuck off, right away. In order to "protest" these types of groups one would need bravely and conviction; something that is noticeably absent in today's "activist".

Some loser above (probably a pro-Israeli loser) is using my usual handle above.

Since the concept of sharing is obviously an extremely difficult one for Zionist Jews to wrap their minds around, please allow me to enlighten you.

SHARING the land of Palestine-Israel, as in the progressive and humane one-state solution, means that all Israelis and Palestinians would share the land as EQUALS, with completely equal rights for all including all the 4.5 million or so Palestinian refugees, and regardless of religion, race, ethnicity or sex.

The partition as proposed by the infamous Balfour agreement really holds no water in modern, civilized, democratic society, as it accommodates the racist ideology of Zionism (Jewish supremacism, manifested in ethnic cleansing and religious/racial discrimination). On top of that, the British and later the United League of Nations, all European countries at the time, had NO MORAL RIGHT to give away Arab land that was NOT theirs to give away in the first place to Eastern European Zionist Jews for a Jewish supremacist state, inevitably resulting in ethnic cleansing, persecution and discrimination of non-Jews.

LIVING TOGETHER as EQUALS is acceptable.

Heck, even the American people would not ever want to give away some of the United States, say for instance, New Jersey (which is about the size of Israel) to Zionist Jews, and thereby one way or another as the Israelis have done, forcing the Americans who have been living there to either a) move somewhere else losing their property, or b) endure discriminatory treatment and even persecution because they are not Jews.

Sharing America with all kinds of people including Jews is fine, but not forcibly giving up land to a exclusive Jewish supremacist group--- that will never work here or anywhere else!

What the Israelis have done to the Palestinians is a grave injustice that NO people should ever have to endure!

Apparently many people still have not read "Origin of the Palestine-Israel Conflict" written by the Jews for Justice in the Middle East at www. cactus48.com

" LIVING TOGETHER as EQUALS is acceptable. "

Then name a single Arab nation in which it is possible. There are Arab members of the Israeli Parliament. Can you point to any Arab state with a Jewish member of Parliament? Well, okay, not Parliament, since most Arab states remain dictatorships. So let's just say "in a similar position of power."

And let's not even get into the problems with women's rights, gay rights, opposition parties, and so forth, because you and I both know that your silence would be stunning.

See, Wendy, the problem is, you think you're obsessed with justice, but you're really only obsessed with Jews.

@%<

is how Zionist Jews are lying to Americans about racist, anti-democratic, apartheid Israel, to get the Americans to keep funding the ethnic cleansing and persecution of the Palestinian people, and how I am on a mission to expose the truth about racist Zionism and racist Israel to my fellow Americans so that we can avert WWIII and live in peace. Yes, I believe the Palestine-Israel conflict is the #1 threat to world peace today, and that Zionism must be outlawed as was/is Nazism, and any other racist ideology.

As someone pointed out to me tonight, American poet Emily Dickenson said something to the effect that "Tell them the truth a little at a time, otherwise the truth will temporarily blind them." as will a bright light to someone who has been in the dark for a long time. As I told him "Truth is stranger than fiction, especially when fiction is all we have been told until now."

"Yes, I believe the Palestine-Israel conflict is the #1 threat to world peace today"

Do you believe it will trigger the Battle of Armageddon, as described in the Book of Revelation?

@%<

by Stephen J. Sniegoski (*) USA

In a lengthy article in The American Conservative
criticizing the rationale for the projected U.S.
attack on Iraq, the veteran diplomatic historian Paul
W. Schroeder only noted in passing 'what is possibly
the unacknowledged real reason and motive behind the
policy - security for Israel.

' If Israel's security were the real American motive
for war, Schroeder went on: 'It would represent
something to my knowledge unique in history. It is
common for great powers to try to fight wars by proxy,
getting smaller powers to fight for their interests.
This would be the first instance I know where a great
power (in fact, a superpower) would do the fighting as
the proxy of a small client state.'1

Is there any evidence that Israel and its supporters
have managed to get the U.S. to fight for its
interests?

The 9/11 attack used

In coming up with the real motives for the projected
war on Iraq, one must ask the critical question: How
did the 9/11 terrorist attack lead to the planned war
on Iraq, for which there is no real evidence that it
was involved in the 9/11 terrorism?

It can be observed that from the time of the 9/11
attack, neoconservatives, of primarily (though not
exclusively) Jewish ethnicity and right-wing Zionist
persuasion, tried to make use of the 9/11 attack to
achieve a broad war against Islamic terrorism, which
coincided with the enemies of Israel.

The neoconservatives and Israel

Although the term neoconservative is in common
usage, a brief description of the group might be
helpful. Many of the first generation
neoconservatives were originally liberal Democrats, or
even socialists and Marxists, often Trotskyites. They
drifted to the right in the 1960s and 1970s as the
Democratic Party moved to the anti-war McGovernite
left. And concern for Israel loomed large in their
change.

As political scientist, Benjamin Ginsberg puts it:
'One major factor that drew them inexorably to the
right was their attachment to Israel and their
growing frustration during the 1960s with a Democratic
party that was becoming increasingly opposed to
American military preparedness and increasingly
enamored of Third World causes [e.g., Palestinian
rights]. In the Reaganite right's hard-line
anti-communism, commitment to American military
strength, and willingness to intervene politically and
militarily in the affairs of other nations to promote
democratic values (and American interests), neocons
found a political movement that would guarantee
Israel's security.'2

War against Iraq at Israel's behest?

Neoconservatives had for some time prior to
September 11, 2001 publicly advocated an American war
on Iraq. The 9/11 atrocities essentially provided the
pretext for carrying out such an activity. The idea
that neoconservatives are the motivating force behind
the United States movement for war has been broached
by a number of commentators. For instance, Joshua
Micah Marshall authored an article in The Washington
Monthly entitled: 'Bomb Saddam?: How the obsession of
a few neocon hawks became the central goal of U.S.
foreign policy.' And Kathleen and Bill Christison
wrote in the leftist e-journal CounterPunch: 'The
suggestion that the war with Iraq is being planned at
Israel's behest, or at the instigation of policymakers
whose main motivation is trying to create a secure
environment for Israel, is strong.

Many Israeli analysts believe this. The Israeli
commentator Akiva Eldar recently observed frankly in a
Ha'aretz column that Perle, Feith, and their fellow
strategists 'are walking a fine line between their
loyalty to American governments and Israeli
interests.'

The suggestion of dual loyalties is not a verboten
subject in the Israeli press, as it is in the United
States. Peace activist Uri Avnery, who knows Israeli
Prime Minister Sharon well, has written that Sharon
has long planned grandiose schemes for restructuring
the Middle East and that 'the winds blowing now in
Washington remind me of Sharon. I have absolutely no
proof that the Bushies got their ideas from him . But
the style is the same.' 3

In the following essay an effort has been made to
flesh out this thesis and to show the linkage between
the war position of the neoconservatives and what has
been long-time strategy of the Israeli right, if not
of the Israeli mainstream itself. Essentially, the
idea of a Middle East war had been bandied about in
Israel for many years as a means of enhancing Israeli
security, which revolves around an ultimate solution
to the Palestinian problem.

Deportation of Palestinians: 'What is inconceivable
in normal times is possible in revolutionary times'

To understand why Israeli leaders would want a
Middle East war, it is first necessary to take a brief
look at the history of Zionist movement and its
goals. Despite public rhetoric to the contrary, the
idea of expelling the indigenous Palestinian
population was an integral part of the Zionist effort
to found a Jewish national state in Palestine.

'The idea of transfer had accompanied the Zionist
movement from its very beginnings, first appearing in
Theodore Herzl historian Tom Segev observes. 'In
practice, the Zionistists began executing a
mini-transfer from the time they began purchasing the
land and evacuating the Arab tenants ...

''Disappearing'' the Arabs lay at the heart of the
Zionist dream, and was also a necessary condition of
its existence ... With few exceptions, none of the
Zionists disputed the desirability of forced transfer
- or its morality.'

However, the Zionist leaders learned not to publicly
proclaim their mass expulsion intent because 'this
would cause the Zionists to lose the world's
sympathy.'4

The key issue was to find an opportune time to
initiate the mass expulsion process that would not
incur the world's condemnation. In the late 1930s,
Ben-Gurion would write: 'What is inconceivable in
normal times is possible in revolutionary times; and
if at this time the opportunity is missed and what is
possible in such great hours is not carried out - a
whole world is lost 5

The 'revolutionary times' would come with the first
Arab-Israeli war in 1948, when the Zionists were able
to expel 750,000 Palestinians (more than 80 percent of
the indigenous population), and thus achieve an
overwhelmingly Jewish state, though the area did not
include the entirety of Palestine, or the 'Land of
Israel', which Zionist leaders thought necessary for
a viable state.

The opportunity to grab additional land took place as
a result of the 1967 war; however, the occupation of
the additional territory brought the problem of a
large Palestinian population. World opinion was now
totally opposed to forced population transfers,
equating such an activity with the unspeakable horror
of Nazism. The landmark Fourth Geneva Convention,
ratified in 1949, had 'unequivocally prohibited
deportation' of civilians under occupation.6 Since
the 1967 war, the major issue in Israeli politics has
been what to do with that territory and its
Palestinian population.

It was during the 1980s, with the coming to power of
the rightwing Likud government, that the idea of
expulsion publicly resurfaced. And this time it was
directly tied to a larger war, with destabilization of
the Middle East seen as a precondition for Palestinian
expulsion. Such a proposal, including Palestinian
population removal, was outlined in an article by Oded
Yinon, entitled 'A Strategy for Israel in the 1980s,'
which appeared in the World Zionist Organization's
periodical Kivunim in February 1982.

Oded Yinon, had been attached to the Foreign Ministry
and his article undoubtedly reflected high-level
thinking in the Israeli military and intelligence
establishment. The article called for Israel to bring
about the dissolution and fragmentation of the Arab
states into a mosaic of ethnic groupings. Thinking
along these lines, Ariel Sharon stated on March 24,
1988 that if the Palestinian uprising continued,
Israel would have to make war on its Arab neighbors.
The war, he stated, would provide 'the circumstances'
for the removal of the entire Palestinian population
from the West Bank and Gaza and even from inside
Israel proper.7

Israeli foreign policy expert Yehoshafat Harkabi
critiqued the war/expulsion scenario - 'Israeli
intentions to impose a Pax Israelica on the Middle
East, to dominate the Arab countries and treat them
harshly' - in his very significant work, Israel's
Fateful Hour, published in 1988.

Writing from a realist perspective, Harkabi believed
that Israel did not have the power to achieve this
goal, given the strength of the Arab states, the
large Palestinian population involved, and the
vehement opposition of world opinion. Harkabi hoped
that 'the failed Israeli attempt to impose a new
order in the weakest Arab state - Lebanon - will
disabuse people of similar ambitions in other
territories.'8 Left unconsidered by Harkabi was the
possibility that the United States would act as
Israel's proxy to achieve this goal.

Securing oil supply

In the 1970s and 1980s, the US Middle Eastern
policy, although sympathetic to Israel, was not
identical to that of Israel. The fundamental goal of
United States policy was to promote stable governments
in the Middle East that would allow the oil to flow to
the Western industrial nations

To allow the oil flow, it was not necessary for these
governments to befriend Israel - in fact they could
openly oppose the Jewish state. The United States
worked for peace between Israel and the Arab states
but a peace that would accommodate the demands of the
Arab nations - most crucially involving the
Palestinians.

US support for the Iraq in its war against Iran

In its policy of ensuring the security of Middle
East oil supplies, the U.S. by the mid-1980s was
heavily supporting Iraq in its war against Iran,
although for awhile the United States also had
provided some aid to Iran (the Iran-Contra scandal).

Ironically, Donald Rumsfeld served as the U.S. envoy
who paved the way for the restoration of relations
with Iraq in 1983, which had been severed in 1967. The
U.S. along with other western nations looked upon
Iraq as a bulwark against the radical Islamism of the
Ayatollah's Iran, which threatened western oil
interests.

U.S. support for Iraq included intelligence
information, military equipment, and agricultural
credits. And the U.S. deployed the largest naval
force since the Vietnam War in the Gulf, ostensibly
for the purpose of protecting oil tankers, but which
engaged in serious attacks on Iran's navy.

It should be added that it was during this period of
U.S. support that Iraq used poisonous gas against the
Iranians and the Kurds, which the U.S. government and
its media supporters now describe as so horrendous. In
fact, United States intelligence information
facilitated the Iraqi use of poison gas against the
Iranians.

In addition, the United States eased up on its own
technology export restrictions to Iraq, which allowed
the Iraqis to import supercomputers, machine tools,
poisonous chemicals, and even strains of anthrax and
bubonic plague. In short, the United States helped arm
Iraq with the very horrific weaponry that
administration officials are now trumpeting as
justification for Saddam's forcible removal from
power.9

When the Iran/Iraq war ended in 1988, the United
States continued its support for Iraq, showering it
with military hardware, advanced technology, and
agricultural credits. The United States apparently
looked to Saddam to maintain stability in the Gulf.
With Iraq's invasion of Kuwait in August 1990,
American policy would swiftly change. And
neoconservatives were hawkish in generating support
for a U.S. war against Iraq.

The Committee for Peace and Security in the Gulf,
headed by Richard Perle, was set up to promote the
war.10 And neoconservative war hawks such as Frank
Gaffney, Jr., Richard Perle, A. M. Rosenthal, William
Safire, and The Wall Street Journal held that
America's war objective should not simply be driving
Iraq out of Iran but also destroying Iraq's military
potential, especially its capacity to develop nuclear
weapons.

The Bush administration embraced this position.11 More
than this, the neoconservatives hoped that the war
would lead to the removal of Saddam Hussein and the
American occupation of Iraq. However, despite the
urging of then Defense Secretary Richard Cheney and
Undersecretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz to adopt a
military plan to invade Iraq, this was never done
because of the opposition from General Colin Powell,
chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and General
Norman Schwarzkopf, the field commander.12

Moreover, the U.S. had a UN mandate to liberate
Kuwait, not to remove Saddam. To attempt the latter
would have caused the warring coalition to fall
apart. America's coalition partners in the region,
especially Turkey and Saudi Arabia, feared that the
elimination of Saddam's government would cause Iraq to
fragment into warring ethnic and religious groups.
This could have involved a Kurdish rebellion in Iraq
that would have spread to Turkey's own restive Kurdish
population and the Iraq Shi'ites falling under the
influence of Iran that would have increased the
threat of Islamic radicalism in the region.

Not only did the Bush administration dash
neoconservative hopes by leaving Saddam in place, but
its proposed 'New World Order,' as implemented by
Secretary of State James Baker, conflicted with
neoconservative/Israeli goals, being oriented toward
placating the Arab coalition that supported the war.

This entailed an effort to curb Israeli control of its
occupied territories. The Bush administration
demanded that Israel halt constructing new settlements
in the occupied territories as a condition to receive
$10 billion in U.S. loan guarantees for the
resettlement of hundreds of thousands of immigrants
from the former Soviet Union. Although Bush would cave
in to American pro-Zionist pressure just prior to the
November 1992 election, his resistance disaffected
many neoconservatives, causing some such as William
Safire to back Bill Clinton in the election of 1992.13


During the Clinton administration neoconservatives
promoted their views from a strong interlocking
network of think tanks - such as the American
Enterpise Institute (AEI), Middle East Media Research
Institute (Memri), Hudson Institute, Washington
Institute for Near East Policy, the Middle East
Forum, Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs
(JINSA), Center for Security Policy (CSP) - which have
had great influence in the media and staff Republican
administrations.

Some of these organizations were originally set up by
mainline conservatives and taken over by
neoconservatives;14 others were established by
neoconservatives, with some of them having a direct
Israeli connection.

For example, Colonel Yigal Carmon, formerly of Israeli
military intelligence was a co-founder of the Middle
East Media Research Institute (Memri). And these
various organizations have been closely connected. For
example, the other co-founder of Memri, Meyrav
Wurmser, was a member of the Hudson Institute, while
her husband, David Wurmser, headed the Middle East
studies department of AEI. Richard Perle was both a
'resident fellow' at the American Enterprise Institute
(AEI) and a trustee of the Hudson Institute.15

The power of influential individuals

A recent article by Jason Vest in the The Nation
discusses the immense power of individuals from two
major neoconservative research organizations, the
Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs (JINSA)
and the Center for Security Policy (CSP), in the
current Bush Administration. Vest details the close
links between these organizations, right-wing
politicians, arms merchants, military men, Jewish
multi-millionaires/billionaires, and Republican
administrations.16

Regarding JINSA, Vest writes:

'Founded in 1976 by neoconservatives concerned that
the United States might not be able to provide Israel
with adequate military supplies in the event of
another Arab-Israeli war, over the past twenty-five
years JINSA has gone from a loose-knit proto-group to
a $1.4-million-a-year operation with a formidable
array of Washington power players on its rolls. Until
the beginning of the current Bush Administration,
JINSA's board of advisers included such heavy hitters
as Dick Cheney, John Bolton (now Under Secretary of
State for Arms Control) and Douglas Feith, the
third-highest-ranking executive in the Pentagon.

Both Perle and former Director of Central
Intelligence James Woolsey, two of the loudest voices
in the attack-Iraq chorus, are still on the board, as
are such Reagan-era relics as Jeane Kirkpatrick,
Eugene Rostow and [Michael] Ledeen - Oliver North's
Iran/ contra liaison with the Israelis.'17

Vest notes that 'dozens' of JINSA and CPSU 'members
have ascended to powerful government posts, where
their advocacy in support of the same agenda
continues, abetted by the out-of-government adjuncts
from which they came. Industrious and persistent,
they've managed to weave a number of issues - support
for national missile defense, opposition to arms
control treaties, championing of wasteful weapons
systems, arms aid to Turkey and American unilateralism
in general - into a hard line, with support for the
Israeli right at its core.'

And Vest continues: 'On no issue is the JINSA/CSP hard
line more evident than in its relentless campaign for
war - not just with Iraq, but 'total war,' as Michael
Ledeen, one of the most influential JINSAns in
Washington, put it last year. For this crew, 'regime
change' by any means necessary in Iraq, Iran, Syria,
Saudi Arabia and the Palestinian Authority is an
urgent imperative.'18

Support for the Israeli Right

Let's recapitulate Vest's major points. The
JINSA/CSP network has 'support for the Israeli right
at its core.' In line with the views of the Israeli
right, it has advocated a Middle Eastern war to
eliminate the enemies of Israel. And members of the
JINSA/CSP network have gained influential foreign
policy positions in Republican administrations, most
especially in the current administration of George W.
Bush.

A clear illustration of the neoconservative thinking
on war on Iraq was a 1996 paper developed Richard
Perle, Douglas Feith, David Wurmser and others
published by an Israeli think tank, the Institute for
Advanced Strategic and Political Studies, entitled 'A
clean break: a new strategy for securing the realm.'
It was intended as a political blueprint for the
incoming government of Benjamin Netanyahu.

The paper stated that Netanyahu should 'make a clean
break' with the Oslo peace process and reassert
Israel's claim to the West Bank and Gaza. It
presented a plan by which Israel would 'shape its
strategic environment', beginning with the removal of
Saddam Hussein and the installation of a Hashemite
monarchy in Baghdad, which would serve as a first step
towards eliminating the anti-Israeli governments of
Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, and Iran.19

It is to be noted that these Americans - Perle, Feith,
and Wurmser - were advising a foreign government and
that they currently are connected to the George W.
Bush administration: Perle is head of the Defense
Policy Board; Feith is Assistant Secretary of Defense
for Policy; and Wurmser is special assistant to State
Department chief arms control negotiator John Bolton.


And it is noteworthy that while in 1996 Israel was to
'shape its strategic environment' by removing its
enemies, the same individuals are now proposing that
the United States shape the Middle East environment by
removing Israel's enemies. It would seem that the
United States is to serve as Israel's proxy to advance
Israeli interests.

War on Iraq demanded already in 1998

On February 19, 1998, the neoconservative Committee
for Peace and Security in the Gulf in an 'Open Letter
to the President,' proposed 'a comprehensive
political and military strategy for bringing down
Saddam and his regime.' The letter continued: 'It will
not be easy - and the course of action we favor is
not without its problems and perils. But we believe
the vital national interests of our country require
the United States to [adopt such a strategy].'

Among the letter's signers were the following current
Bush Administration officials: Elliott Abrams
(National Security Council), Richard Armitage (State
Department), John Bolton (State Department), Doug
Feith (Defense Department), Fred Ikle (Defense Policy
Board), Zalmay Khalilzad (White House), Peter Rodman
(Defense Department), Donald Rumsfeld (Secretary of
Defense), Paul Wolfowitz (Defense Department), David
Wurmser (State Department), Dov Zakheim (Defense
Department), and Richard Perle (Defense Policy
Board).20

Note that Rumsfeld was part of the neoconservative
network and already demanding war with Iraq.21

Signers of the letter also included such pro-Zionist
and neoconservative luminaries as Robert Kagan,
William Kristol, Frank Gaffney (Director, Center for
Security Policy), Joshua Muravchik (American
Enterprise Institute), Martin Peretz (Editor-in-Chief,
The New Republic), Leon Wieseltier, (The New
Republic), former congressman Stephen Solarz.22

President Clinton would only go so far as to support
the Iraq Liberation Act, which allocated ninety-seven
million dollars for training and military equipment
for the Iraqi opposition.23

In September 2000, the neo-conservative think-tank
Project for the New American Century (PNAC)24 issued a
report, 'Rebuilding America's defenses: Strategy,
Forces and Resources for a New Century,' which
envisioned an expanded global posture for the United
States. In regard to the Middle East, the report
called for an increased American military presence in
the Gulf, whether Saddam was in power or not,
maintaining that: 'The United States has for decades
sought to play a more permanent role in Gulf regional
security. While the unresolved conflict with Iraq
provides the immediate justification, the need for a
substantial American force presence in the Gulf
transcends the issue of the regime of Saddam
Hussein.'25

The project's participants included individuals who
would play leading roles in the Bush administration:
Dick Cheney (vice- president), Donald Rumsfeld
(Secretary of Defense), Paul Wolfowitz (Deputy
Secretary of Defense), and Lewis Libby (Vice
President Cheney's chief of staff). Weekly Standard
editor William Kristol was also a co-author.

The strategists Wolfowitz and Perle

In order to directly influence White House policy,
Wolfowitz and Perle managed to obtain leading roles in
Bush foreign policy/national security advisory team
for the 2000 campaign. Headed by Soviet specialist
Condoleezza Rice, the team was referred to as 'the
Vulcans.' Having no direct experience and little
knowledge of foreign policy, as illustrated by his
gaffes - confusing Slovakia with Slovenia, referring
to Greeks as 'Grecians' and failing a pop quiz on the
names of four foreign leaders - George W. Bush would
have to rely heavily on his advisers. 'His foreign
policy team,' neoconservative Robert Kagan observed,
'will be critically important to determining what his
policies are.' And as columnist Robert Novak noted:
'Since Rice lacks a clear track record on Middle East
matters, Wolfowitz and Perle will probably weigh in
most on Middle East policy.'26

In short, Wolfowitz and Perle would provide the
know-nothing Bush with a foreign policy for the
Middle East. And certainly such right-wing Zionist
views would be reinforced by Cheney and Rumsfeld and
the multitude of other neoconservatives who would
inundate his administration.

Upon taking office, neoconservatives would fill the
key positions in the administration involving defense
and foreign policy. On Donald Rumsfeld's staff are
Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz and Under
Secretary for Policy Douglas Feith. On Cheney's staff,
the principal neoconservatives include Lewis
'Scooter' Libby, Eric Edelman, and John Hannah. And it
should be added that Cheney, with his long-time
neoconservative connections and views has played a
significant role in shaping administration foreign
policy.27

Richard Perle is often described as the most
influential foreign-policy neoconservative, their
eminence grise.28 During the 1970s, Perle gained
notice as a top aide to Senator Henry 'Scoop' Jackson
(Democrat, Washingon), who was one of the Senate's
most anti-Communist and pro-Israeli members. During
the 1980s, Perle served as deputy secretary of defense
under Reagan, where his hardline anti-Soviet
positions, especially his opposition to any form of
arms control, earned him the moniker 'Prince of
Darkness' from his enemies. His friends, however,
considered him, as one put it, 'one of the most
wonderful people in Washington.' That Perle is known
as a man of great intellect, a gracious and generous
host, a witty companion, and a loyal ally helps to
explain his prestige in neoconservative circles.29

Perle is not only an exponent of pro-Zionist views,
but has had close connections with Israel, being a
personal friend of Ariel Sharon's, a board member of
the Jerusalem Post, and an ex-employee of the Israeli
weapon manufacturer Soltam. According to author
Seymour M. Hersh, while Perle was a congressional aide
for Jackson, FBI wiretaps had picked up Perle
providing classified information from the National
Security Council to the Israeli embassy.30

Although not technically part of the Bush
administration, Perle holds the unpaid chairmanship of
the Defense Policy Board. In this position, Perle has
access to classified documents and close contacts with
the admini–stration leadership. As an article in Salon
puts it: 'Formerly an obscure civilian board designed
to provide the secretary of defense with non-binding
advice on a whole range of military issues, the
Defense Policy Board, now stacked with unabashed Iraq
hawks, has become a quasi-lobbying organization whose
primary objective appears to be waging war with
Iraq.'31

Sharon's policy of mass expulsion of Palestinians

As the Bush administration came into office in
January 2001, press reports in Israel quoted
government officials and politicians speaking openly
of mass expulsion of the Palestinians. The new Israeli
Prime Minister Ariel Sharon (elected to office in
February 2001), noted for his ruthlessness, had said
in the past that Jordan should become the Palestinian
state where Palestinians removed from Israeli
territory would be relocated.32

There was increased public concern about demographic
changes that threatened the Jewish nature of the
Israeli state. Haifa University professor Arnon Sofer
released the study, 'Demography of Eretz Israel,'
which predicted that by 2020 non-Jews would be a
majority of 58 percent in Israel and the occupied
territories.33 Moreover, it was recognized that the
overall increase in population was going beyond that
which the land, with its limited supply of water, can
maintain.34

It appeared to some that Sharon intended to achieve
expulsion through militant means. As one left-wing
analyst put it at the time: 'One big war with
transfer at its end - this is the plan of the hawks
who indeed almost reached the moment of its
implementation.'35

In summer 2001, the authoritative Jane's Information
Group reported that Israel had completed planning for
a massive and bloody invasion of the Occupied
Territories, involving 'air strikes by F-15 and F-16
fighter bombers, a heavy artillery bombardment, and
then an attack by a combined force of 30,000 men ...
tank brigades and infantry.' It would seem that such
bold strikes signified far more than simply removing
Arafat and the PLO leadership.

But the U.S. vetoed the plan and Europe made equally
plain its opposition to Sharon's plans.36 As one
close observer of the Israeli-Palestinian scene
presciently noted in August 2001, 'it is only in the
current political climate that such expulsion plans
cannot be put into operation. As hot as the political
climate is at the moment, clearly the time is not yet
ripe for drastic action. However, if the temperature
were raised even higher, actions inconceivable at
present might be possible.'37 Once again,
'revolutionary times' were necessary for Israel to
achieve its policy goals. And then came the September
11 attacks.

by Stephen J. Sniegoski (*) USA

In a lengthy article in The American Conservative
criticizing the rationale for the projected U.S.
attack on Iraq, the veteran diplomatic historian Paul
W. Schroeder only noted in passing 'what is possibly
the unacknowledged real reason and motive behind the
policy - security for Israel.

' If Israel's security were the real American motive
for war, Schroeder went on: 'It would represent
something to my knowledge unique in history. It is
common for great powers to try to fight wars by proxy,
getting smaller powers to fight for their interests.
This would be the first instance I know where a great
power (in fact, a superpower) would do the fighting as
the proxy of a small client state.'1

Is there any evidence that Israel and its supporters
have managed to get the U.S. to fight for its
interests?

The 9/11 attack used

In coming up with the real motives for the projected
war on Iraq, one must ask the critical question: How
did the 9/11 terrorist attack lead to the planned war
on Iraq, for which there is no real evidence that it
was involved in the 9/11 terrorism?

It can be observed that from the time of the 9/11
attack, neoconservatives, of primarily (though not
exclusively) Jewish ethnicity and right-wing Zionist
persuasion, tried to make use of the 9/11 attack to
achieve a broad war against Islamic terrorism, which
coincided with the enemies of Israel.

The neoconservatives and Israel

Although the term neoconservative is in common
usage, a brief description of the group might be
helpful. Many of the first generation
neoconservatives were originally liberal Democrats, or
even socialists and Marxists, often Trotskyites. They
drifted to the right in the 1960s and 1970s as the
Democratic Party moved to the anti-war McGovernite
left. And concern for Israel loomed large in their
change.

As political scientist, Benjamin Ginsberg puts it:
'One major factor that drew them inexorably to the
right was their attachment to Israel and their
growing frustration during the 1960s with a Democratic
party that was becoming increasingly opposed to
American military preparedness and increasingly
enamored of Third World causes [e.g., Palestinian
rights]. In the Reaganite right's hard-line
anti-communism, commitment to American military
strength, and willingness to intervene politically and
militarily in the affairs of other nations to promote
democratic values (and American interests), neocons
found a political movement that would guarantee
Israel's security.'2

War against Iraq at Israel's behest?

Neoconservatives had for some time prior to
September 11, 2001 publicly advocated an American war
on Iraq. The 9/11 atrocities essentially provided the
pretext for carrying out such an activity. The idea
that neoconservatives are the motivating force behind
the United States movement for war has been broached
by a number of commentators. For instance, Joshua
Micah Marshall authored an article in The Washington
Monthly entitled: 'Bomb Saddam?: How the obsession of
a few neocon hawks became the central goal of U.S.
foreign policy.' And Kathleen and Bill Christison
wrote in the leftist e-journal CounterPunch: 'The
suggestion that the war with Iraq is being planned at
Israel's behest, or at the instigation of policymakers
whose main motivation is trying to create a secure
environment for Israel, is strong.

Many Israeli analysts believe this. The Israeli
commentator Akiva Eldar recently observed frankly in a
Ha'aretz column that Perle, Feith, and their fellow
strategists 'are walking a fine line between their
loyalty to American governments and Israeli
interests.'

The suggestion of dual loyalties is not a verboten
subject in the Israeli press, as it is in the United
States. Peace activist Uri Avnery, who knows Israeli
Prime Minister Sharon well, has written that Sharon
has long planned grandiose schemes for restructuring
the Middle East and that 'the winds blowing now in
Washington remind me of Sharon. I have absolutely no
proof that the Bushies got their ideas from him . But
the style is the same.' 3

In the following essay an effort has been made to
flesh out this thesis and to show the linkage between
the war position of the neoconservatives and what has
been long-time strategy of the Israeli right, if not
of the Israeli mainstream itself. Essentially, the
idea of a Middle East war had been bandied about in
Israel for many years as a means of enhancing Israeli
security, which revolves around an ultimate solution
to the Palestinian problem.

Deportation of Palestinians: 'What is inconceivable
in normal times is possible in revolutionary times'

To understand why Israeli leaders would want a
Middle East war, it is first necessary to take a brief
look at the history of Zionist movement and its
goals. Despite public rhetoric to the contrary, the
idea of expelling the indigenous Palestinian
population was an integral part of the Zionist effort
to found a Jewish national state in Palestine.

'The idea of transfer had accompanied the Zionist
movement from its very beginnings, first appearing in
Theodore Herzl historian Tom Segev observes. 'In
practice, the Zionistists began executing a
mini-transfer from the time they began purchasing the
land and evacuating the Arab tenants ...

''Disappearing'' the Arabs lay at the heart of the
Zionist dream, and was also a necessary condition of
its existence ... With few exceptions, none of the
Zionists disputed the desirability of forced transfer
- or its morality.'

However, the Zionist leaders learned not to publicly
proclaim their mass expulsion intent because 'this
would cause the Zionists to lose the world's
sympathy.'4

The key issue was to find an opportune time to
initiate the mass expulsion process that would not
incur the world's condemnation. In the late 1930s,
Ben-Gurion would write: 'What is inconceivable in
normal times is possible in revolutionary times; and
if at this time the opportunity is missed and what is
possible in such great hours is not carried out - a
whole world is lost 5

The 'revolutionary times' would come with the first
Arab-Israeli war in 1948, when the Zionists were able
to expel 750,000 Palestinians (more than 80 percent of
the indigenous population), and thus achieve an
overwhelmingly Jewish state, though the area did not
include the entirety of Palestine, or the 'Land of
Israel', which Zionist leaders thought necessary for
a viable state.

The opportunity to grab additional land took place as
a result of the 1967 war; however, the occupation of
the additional territory brought the problem of a
large Palestinian population. World opinion was now
totally opposed to forced population transfers,
equating such an activity with the unspeakable horror
of Nazism. The landmark Fourth Geneva Convention,
ratified in 1949, had 'unequivocally prohibited
deportation' of civilians under occupation.6 Since
the 1967 war, the major issue in Israeli politics has
been what to do with that territory and its
Palestinian population.

It was during the 1980s, with the coming to power of
the rightwing Likud government, that the idea of
expulsion publicly resurfaced. And this time it was
directly tied to a larger war, with destabilization of
the Middle East seen as a precondition for Palestinian
expulsion. Such a proposal, including Palestinian
population removal, was outlined in an article by Oded
Yinon, entitled 'A Strategy for Israel in the 1980s,'
which appeared in the World Zionist Organization's
periodical Kivunim in February 1982.

Oded Yinon, had been attached to the Foreign Ministry
and his article undoubtedly reflected high-level
thinking in the Israeli military and intelligence
establishment. The article called for Israel to bring
about the dissolution and fragmentation of the Arab
states into a mosaic of ethnic groupings. Thinking
along these lines, Ariel Sharon stated on March 24,
1988 that if the Palestinian uprising continued,
Israel would have to make war on its Arab neighbors.
The war, he stated, would provide 'the circumstances'
for the removal of the entire Palestinian population
from the West Bank and Gaza and even from inside
Israel proper.7

Israeli foreign policy expert Yehoshafat Harkabi
critiqued the war/expulsion scenario - 'Israeli
intentions to impose a Pax Israelica on the Middle
East, to dominate the Arab countries and treat them
harshly' - in his very significant work, Israel's
Fateful Hour, published in 1988.

Writing from a realist perspective, Harkabi believed
that Israel did not have the power to achieve this
goal, given the strength of the Arab states, the
large Palestinian population involved, and the
vehement opposition of world opinion. Harkabi hoped
that 'the failed Israeli attempt to impose a new
order in the weakest Arab state - Lebanon - will
disabuse people of similar ambitions in other
territories.'8 Left unconsidered by Harkabi was the
possibility that the United States would act as
Israel's proxy to achieve this goal.

Securing oil supply

In the 1970s and 1980s, the US Middle Eastern
policy, although sympathetic to Israel, was not
identical to that of Israel. The fundamental goal of
United States policy was to promote stable governments
in the Middle East that would allow the oil to flow to
the Western industrial nations

To allow the oil flow, it was not necessary for these
governments to befriend Israel - in fact they could
openly oppose the Jewish state. The United States
worked for peace between Israel and the Arab states
but a peace that would accommodate the demands of the
Arab nations - most crucially involving the
Palestinians.

US support for the Iraq in its war against Iran

In its policy of ensuring the security of Middle
East oil supplies, the U.S. by the mid-1980s was
heavily supporting Iraq in its war against Iran,
although for awhile the United States also had
provided some aid to Iran (the Iran-Contra scandal).

Ironically, Donald Rumsfeld served as the U.S. envoy
who paved the way for the restoration of relations
with Iraq in 1983, which had been severed in 1967. The
U.S. along with other western nations looked upon
Iraq as a bulwark against the radical Islamism of the
Ayatollah's Iran, which threatened western oil
interests.

U.S. support for Iraq included intelligence
information, military equipment, and agricultural
credits. And the U.S. deployed the largest naval
force since the Vietnam War in the Gulf, ostensibly
for the purpose of protecting oil tankers, but which
engaged in serious attacks on Iran's navy.

It should be added that it was during this period of
U.S. support that Iraq used poisonous gas against the
Iranians and the Kurds, which the U.S. government and
its media supporters now describe as so horrendous. In
fact, United States intelligence information
facilitated the Iraqi use of poison gas against the
Iranians.

In addition, the United States eased up on its own
technology export restrictions to Iraq, which allowed
the Iraqis to import supercomputers, machine tools,
poisonous chemicals, and even strains of anthrax and
bubonic plague. In short, the United States helped arm
Iraq with the very horrific weaponry that
administration officials are now trumpeting as
justification for Saddam's forcible removal from
power.9

When the Iran/Iraq war ended in 1988, the United
States continued its support for Iraq, showering it
with military hardware, advanced technology, and
agricultural credits. The United States apparently
looked to Saddam to maintain stability in the Gulf.
With Iraq's invasion of Kuwait in August 1990,
American policy would swiftly change. And
neoconservatives were hawkish in generating support
for a U.S. war against Iraq.

The Committee for Peace and Security in the Gulf,
headed by Richard Perle, was set up to promote the
war.10 And neoconservative war hawks such as Frank
Gaffney, Jr., Richard Perle, A. M. Rosenthal, William
Safire, and The Wall Street Journal held that
America's war objective should not simply be driving
Iraq out of Iran but also destroying Iraq's military
potential, especially its capacity to develop nuclear
weapons.

The Bush administration embraced this position.11 More
than this, the neoconservatives hoped that the war
would lead to the removal of Saddam Hussein and the
American occupation of Iraq. However, despite the
urging of then Defense Secretary Richard Cheney and
Undersecretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz to adopt a
military plan to invade Iraq, this was never done
because of the opposition from General Colin Powell,
chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and General
Norman Schwarzkopf, the field commander.12

Moreover, the U.S. had a UN mandate to liberate
Kuwait, not to remove Saddam. To attempt the latter
would have caused the warring coalition to fall
apart. America's coalition partners in the region,
especially Turkey and Saudi Arabia, feared that the
elimination of Saddam's government would cause Iraq to
fragment into warring ethnic and religious groups.
This could have involved a Kurdish rebellion in Iraq
that would have spread to Turkey's own restive Kurdish
population and the Iraq Shi'ites falling under the
influence of Iran that would have increased the
threat of Islamic radicalism in the region.

Not only did the Bush administration dash
neoconservative hopes by leaving Saddam in place, but
its proposed 'New World Order,' as implemented by
Secretary of State James Baker, conflicted with
neoconservative/Israeli goals, being oriented toward
placating the Arab coalition that supported the war.

This entailed an effort to curb Israeli control of its
occupied territories. The Bush administration
demanded that Israel halt constructing new settlements
in the occupied territories as a condition to receive
$10 billion in U.S. loan guarantees for the
resettlement of hundreds of thousands of immigrants
from the former Soviet Union. Although Bush would cave
in to American pro-Zionist pressure just prior to the
November 1992 election, his resistance disaffected
many neoconservatives, causing some such as William
Safire to back Bill Clinton in the election of 1992.13


During the Clinton administration neoconservatives
promoted their views from a strong interlocking
network of think tanks - such as the American
Enterpise Institute (AEI), Middle East Media Research
Institute (Memri), Hudson Institute, Washington
Institute for Near East Policy, the Middle East
Forum, Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs
(JINSA), Center for Security Policy (CSP) - which have
had great influence in the media and staff Republican
administrations.

Some of these organizations were originally set up by
mainline conservatives and taken over by
neoconservatives;14 others were established by
neoconservatives, with some of them having a direct
Israeli connection.

For example, Colonel Yigal Carmon, formerly of Israeli
military intelligence was a co-founder of the Middle
East Media Research Institute (Memri). And these
various organizations have been closely connected. For
example, the other co-founder of Memri, Meyrav
Wurmser, was a member of the Hudson Institute, while
her husband, David Wurmser, headed the Middle East
studies department of AEI. Richard Perle was both a
'resident fellow' at the American Enterprise Institute
(AEI) and a trustee of the Hudson Institute.15

The power of influential individuals

A recent article by Jason Vest in the The Nation
discusses the immense power of individuals from two
major neoconservative research organizations, the
Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs (JINSA)
and the Center for Security Policy (CSP), in the
current Bush Administration. Vest details the close
links between these organizations, right-wing
politicians, arms merchants, military men, Jewish
multi-millionaires/billionaires, and Republican
administrations.16

Regarding JINSA, Vest writes:

'Founded in 1976 by neoconservatives concerned that
the United States might not be able to provide Israel
with adequate military supplies in the event of
another Arab-Israeli war, over the past twenty-five
years JINSA has gone from a loose-knit proto-group to
a $1.4-million-a-year operation with a formidable
array of Washington power players on its rolls. Until
the beginning of the current Bush Administration,
JINSA's board of advisers included such heavy hitters
as Dick Cheney, John Bolton (now Under Secretary of
State for Arms Control) and Douglas Feith, the
third-highest-ranking executive in the Pentagon.

Both Perle and former Director of Central
Intelligence James Woolsey, two of the loudest voices
in the attack-Iraq chorus, are still on the board, as
are such Reagan-era relics as Jeane Kirkpatrick,
Eugene Rostow and [Michael] Ledeen - Oliver North's
Iran/ contra liaison with the Israelis.'17

Vest notes that 'dozens' of JINSA and CPSU 'members
have ascended to powerful government posts, where
their advocacy in support of the same agenda
continues, abetted by the out-of-government adjuncts
from which they came. Industrious and persistent,
they've managed to weave a number of issues - support
for national missile defense, opposition to arms
control treaties, championing of wasteful weapons
systems, arms aid to Turkey and American unilateralism
in general - into a hard line, with support for the
Israeli right at its core.'

And Vest continues: 'On no issue is the JINSA/CSP hard
line more evident than in its relentless campaign for
war - not just with Iraq, but 'total war,' as Michael
Ledeen, one of the most influential JINSAns in
Washington, put it last year. For this crew, 'regime
change' by any means necessary in Iraq, Iran, Syria,
Saudi Arabia and the Palestinian Authority is an
urgent imperative.'18

Support for the Israeli Right

Let's recapitulate Vest's major points. The
JINSA/CSP network has 'support for the Israeli right
at its core.' In line with the views of the Israeli
right, it has advocated a Middle Eastern war to
eliminate the enemies of Israel. And members of the
JINSA/CSP network have gained influential foreign
policy positions in Republican administrations, most
especially in the current administration of George W.
Bush.

A clear illustration of the neoconservative thinking
on war on Iraq was a 1996 paper developed Richard
Perle, Douglas Feith, David Wurmser and others
published by an Israeli think tank, the Institute for
Advanced Strategic and Political Studies, entitled 'A
clean break: a new strategy for securing the realm.'
It was intended as a political blueprint for the
incoming government of Benjamin Netanyahu.

The paper stated that Netanyahu should 'make a clean
break' with the Oslo peace process and reassert
Israel's claim to the West Bank and Gaza. It
presented a plan by which Israel would 'shape its
strategic environment', beginning with the removal of
Saddam Hussein and the installation of a Hashemite
monarchy in Baghdad, which would serve as a first step
towards eliminating the anti-Israeli governments of
Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, and Iran.19

It is to be noted that these Americans - Perle, Feith,
and Wurmser - were advising a foreign government and
that they currently are connected to the George W.
Bush administration: Perle is head of the Defense
Policy Board; Feith is Assistant Secretary of Defense
for Policy; and Wurmser is special assistant to State
Department chief arms control negotiator John Bolton.


And it is noteworthy that while in 1996 Israel was to
'shape its strategic environment' by removing its
enemies, the same individuals are now proposing that
the United States shape the Middle East environment by
removing Israel's enemies. It would seem that the
United States is to serve as Israel's proxy to advance
Israeli interests.

War on Iraq demanded already in 1998

On February 19, 1998, the neoconservative Committee
for Peace and Security in the Gulf in an 'Open Letter
to the President,' proposed 'a comprehensive
political and military strategy for bringing down
Saddam and his regime.' The letter continued: 'It will
not be easy - and the course of action we favor is
not without its problems and perils. But we believe
the vital national interests of our country require
the United States to [adopt such a strategy].'

Among the letter's signers were the following current
Bush Administration officials: Elliott Abrams
(National Security Council), Richard Armitage (State
Department), John Bolton (State Department), Doug
Feith (Defense Department), Fred Ikle (Defense Policy
Board), Zalmay Khalilzad (White House), Peter Rodman
(Defense Department), Donald Rumsfeld (Secretary of
Defense), Paul Wolfowitz (Defense Department), David
Wurmser (State Department), Dov Zakheim (Defense
Department), and Richard Perle (Defense Policy
Board).20

Note that Rumsfeld was part of the neoconservative
network and already demanding war with Iraq.21

Signers of the letter also included such pro-Zionist
and neoconservative luminaries as Robert Kagan,
William Kristol, Frank Gaffney (Director, Center for
Security Policy), Joshua Muravchik (American
Enterprise Institute), Martin Peretz (Editor-in-Chief,
The New Republic), Leon Wieseltier, (The New
Republic), former congressman Stephen Solarz.22

President Clinton would only go so far as to support
the Iraq Liberation Act, which allocated ninety-seven
million dollars for training and military equipment
for the Iraqi opposition.23

In September 2000, the neo-conservative think-tank
Project for the New American Century (PNAC)24 issued a
report, 'Rebuilding America's defenses: Strategy,
Forces and Resources for a New Century,' which
envisioned an expanded global posture for the United
States. In regard to the Middle East, the report
called for an increased American military presence in
the Gulf, whether Saddam was in power or not,
maintaining that: 'The United States has for decades
sought to play a more permanent role in Gulf regional
security. While the unresolved conflict with Iraq
provides the immediate justification, the need for a
substantial American force presence in the Gulf
transcends the issue of the regime of Saddam
Hussein.'25

The project's participants included individuals who
would play leading roles in the Bush administration:
Dick Cheney (vice- president), Donald Rumsfeld
(Secretary of Defense), Paul Wolfowitz (Deputy
Secretary of Defense), and Lewis Libby (Vice
President Cheney's chief of staff). Weekly Standard
editor William Kristol was also a co-author.

The strategists Wolfowitz and Perle

In order to directly influence White House policy,
Wolfowitz and Perle managed to obtain leading roles in
Bush foreign policy/national security advisory team
for the 2000 campaign. Headed by Soviet specialist
Condoleezza Rice, the team was referred to as 'the
Vulcans.' Having no direct experience and little
knowledge of foreign policy, as illustrated by his
gaffes - confusing Slovakia with Slovenia, referring
to Greeks as 'Grecians' and failing a pop quiz on the
names of four foreign leaders - George W. Bush would
have to rely heavily on his advisers. 'His foreign
policy team,' neoconservative Robert Kagan observed,
'will be critically important to determining what his
policies are.' And as columnist Robert Novak noted:
'Since Rice lacks a clear track record on Middle East
matters, Wolfowitz and Perle will probably weigh in
most on Middle East policy.'26

In short, Wolfowitz and Perle would provide the
know-nothing Bush with a foreign policy for the
Middle East. And certainly such right-wing Zionist
views would be reinforced by Cheney and Rumsfeld and
the multitude of other neoconservatives who would
inundate his administration.

Upon taking office, neoconservatives would fill the
key positions in the administration involving defense
and foreign policy. On Donald Rumsfeld's staff are
Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz and Under
Secretary for Policy Douglas Feith. On Cheney's staff,
the principal neoconservatives include Lewis
'Scooter' Libby, Eric Edelman, and John Hannah. And it
should be added that Cheney, with his long-time
neoconservative connections and views has played a
significant role in shaping administration foreign
policy.27

Richard Perle is often described as the most
influential foreign-policy neoconservative, their
eminence grise.28 During the 1970s, Perle gained
notice as a top aide to Senator Henry 'Scoop' Jackson
(Democrat, Washingon), who was one of the Senate's
most anti-Communist and pro-Israeli members. During
the 1980s, Perle served as deputy secretary of defense
under Reagan, where his hardline anti-Soviet
positions, especially his opposition to any form of
arms control, earned him the moniker 'Prince of
Darkness' from his enemies. His friends, however,
considered him, as one put it, 'one of the most
wonderful people in Washington.' That Perle is known
as a man of great intellect, a gracious and generous
host, a witty companion, and a loyal ally helps to
explain his prestige in neoconservative circles.29

Perle is not only an exponent of pro-Zionist views,
but has had close connections with Israel, being a
personal friend of Ariel Sharon's, a board member of
the Jerusalem Post, and an ex-employee of the Israeli
weapon manufacturer Soltam. According to author
Seymour M. Hersh, while Perle was a congressional aide
for Jackson, FBI wiretaps had picked up Perle
providing classified information from the National
Security Council to the Israeli embassy.30

Although not technically part of the Bush
administration, Perle holds the unpaid chairmanship of
the Defense Policy Board. In this position, Perle has
access to classified documents and close contacts with
the admini–stration leadership. As an article in Salon
puts it: 'Formerly an obscure civilian board designed
to provide the secretary of defense with non-binding
advice on a whole range of military issues, the
Defense Policy Board, now stacked with unabashed Iraq
hawks, has become a quasi-lobbying organization whose
primary objective appears to be waging war with
Iraq.'31

Sharon's policy of mass expulsion of Palestinians

As the Bush administration came into office in
January 2001, press reports in Israel quoted
government officials and politicians speaking openly
of mass expulsion of the Palestinians. The new Israeli
Prime Minister Ariel Sharon (elected to office in
February 2001), noted for his ruthlessness, had said
in the past that Jordan should become the Palestinian
state where Palestinians removed from Israeli
territory would be relocated.32

There was increased public concern about demographic
changes that threatened the Jewish nature of the
Israeli state. Haifa University professor Arnon Sofer
released the study, 'Demography of Eretz Israel,'
which predicted that by 2020 non-Jews would be a
majority of 58 percent in Israel and the occupied
territories.33 Moreover, it was recognized that the
overall increase in population was going beyond that
which the land, with its limited supply of water, can
maintain.34

It appeared to some that Sharon intended to achieve
expulsion through militant means. As one left-wing
analyst put it at the time: 'One big war with
transfer at its end - this is the plan of the hawks
who indeed almost reached the moment of its
implementation.'35

In summer 2001, the authoritative Jane's Information
Group reported that Israel had completed planning for
a massive and bloody invasion of the Occupied
Territories, involving 'air strikes by F-15 and F-16
fighter bombers, a heavy artillery bombardment, and
then an attack by a combined force of 30,000 men ...
tank brigades and infantry.' It would seem that such
bold strikes signified far more than simply removing
Arafat and the PLO leadership.

But the U.S. vetoed the plan and Europe made equally
plain its opposition to Sharon's plans.36 As one
close observer of the Israeli-Palestinian scene
presciently noted in August 2001, 'it is only in the
current political climate that such expulsion plans
cannot be put into operation. As hot as the political
climate is at the moment, clearly the time is not yet
ripe for drastic action. However, if the temperature
were raised even higher, actions inconceivable at
present might be possible.'37 Once again,
'revolutionary times' were necessary for Israel to
achieve its policy goals. And then came the September
11 attacks.

Lots of truth there.

“Yay is Yay and Nay is Nay; Anything Else Smacketh of Evil”

A Reader No Longer Trusts Us About Yugoslavia
Because We Said The 'Wrong' Thing About Israel...

Jared Israel Comments {Part One}
[Posted 17 February 2003]
==========================================
Dear Jared,

You were one of the main people I read and admired in 1999 and 2000 because of
your excellent criticism of American/NATO state terrorism against innocent
Serbian people. Now that I know you're a defender of Israeli state terrorism,
however, I feel some doubt about whether Milosevic and the Serbians as a nation
really are as innocent as you portray them. Since you ignore and excuse Israeli
atrocities and state terrorism, you will likely ignore and excuse Serbian
atrocities too.

Get a clue, Jared. Zionism is Jewish Naziism. Ariel Sharon is a Jewish Hitler.

Your friend,
Dave T.

=========================================
Jared Israel Comments
=========================================

Dear Dave,

Thank you for your kind words about my work on Yugoslavia.

Regarding Israel, we at Emperor’s Clothes used to believe it was mainly
responsible for the problems in the Middle East. However we changed our minds.
Consequently some people are mad at us.

We began studying the Arab-Israeli dispute and anti-Semitism last spring. We
had several reasons.

First, we found the media coverage of the fighting in Jenin to be biased
against Israel in ways reminiscent of anti-Serb media coverage in Bosnia and
Kosovo. The media accepted outrageous claims (that hundreds or even thousands
had been brutally murdered, etc.) without applying common sense skepticism.
This coverage created the public impression that, in Jenin, Goliath was
massacring David. After the smoke cleared, only a few newspapers had reports
such as this:

[Start Quote From Washington Times]

“Kadoura Mousa Kadoura, director of Yasser Arafat’s Fatah movement for the
northern West Bank, told The Washington Times on Tuesday that after receiving a
report from four Palestinian-appointed investigators, he no longer believed
there had been a massacre at the camp. He produced a list of 56 persons known
to have died in Jenin.”[1]

[End Quote From Washington Times]

The more we researched Jenin, the more we realized the media was even ignoring
information *from the Arab press* that refuted the charges against Israel [2]
Many of the same ‘experts’ being quoted against Israel regarding Jenin had
previously been quoted by the media against Serbia regarding Kosovo and Bosnia -
or even against Armenia in its conflict with Azerbaijan![3]This contradicted
my own view, that Israel was simply an extension of U.S. power.

Second, we saw in the mass media, especially in Europe and the Arab countries,
as well as on a variety of antiwar Websites and among critics of the US
government, a growing campaign of anti-Semitism (in other words, not merely
critical of Israeli government policies.) This campaign was geographically
widespread and politically diverse. People with seemingly opposite politics
attacked Israel in strikingly similar ways.

Thus, in the USA, some self-proclaimed Leftists, such as the A.N.S.W.E.R.
organization, and open hatemongers such as David Duke, the ‘former’ Ku Klux
Klan leader, claimed Israel was *the main problem in the world*. [3a] Both made
the amazing charge that Israel was “Nazi.” Last April, A.N.S.W.E.R. mobilized
people, mainly Arab Americans, for what turned into an anti-Israel rally in
Washington DC. People who attended under the impression the focus would be on
globalization told me the large rally was dominated by threateningly aggressive
Palestinian groups, openly celebrating the suicide bombers. The only country
attacked was Israel. Nobody attacked the Islamic states, perhaps the most
harshly repressive in the world (and especially repressive against women).
Quite a few demonstrators had signs equating the Star of David with the
Swastika, and we heard reports that the same thing was happening in France and
Italy.

This was not a demonstration for *peace* but for PLO victory and for Israel’s
destruction. How did the major media respond? They could have ignored the
demonstration (that’s how they handled demonstrations during the bombing of
Yugoslavia). Or they could have given equal space to the opposing side. The
opposing side would have said that comparing Israeli Jews as Nazi-like
victimizers and the Arabs as Jewish-like victims is absurd because it leaves
out the entire history. First of all, Jews were the most law-abiding of German
citizens, whereas the Arab world has been organized around terror with the goal
of destroying Israel for more than 50 years. In Israel, anti-Arab hate crimes
are prosecuted, but the most extreme hate propaganda - calling for killing all
Jews - is a staple of Arab TV. In Arab countries, Nazi texts are bestsellers
and officially endorsed, and violence against Jews is officially tolerated. [3b]

Israeli policies are a legitimate subject for critical scrutiny. However, it
seemed patently absurd to me to portray Palestinians as victims of unprovoked
attacks. After all, even I, who was very sympathetic to the Palestinians, and
felt Israel was mainly at fault, knew that Palestinian terrorists based in the
West Bank and Gaza had been murdering Israeli civilians and pro-peace Arabs
since the early 1950s.

But the media neither ignored the demonstration in Washington nor published
both sides; rather, the demonstration was covered favorably. By way of example,
I will put up a couple of pieces from the Washington Post from last April.[4]

Why such favorable coverage? Why, I asked myself, unless the Washington Post
was trying to make this ‘destroy-Israel’ position appear mainstream!

On the Web, people on the Left posted and circulated a *fictitious* interview
with Ariel Sharon, supposedly himself boasting he was a “Judeo-Nazi”!

Others circulated a fictitious quote, which had Sharon (again) himself boasting
(again!) that “The Jews” ran America - shades of that other fabrication, the
Protocols of Zion.[5]

I traced the sources of the interview and the quote and found they were
fabrications. When I posted my findings on email lists, I was accused of
bringing up irrelevancies (!), or apologizing for Sharon, or working for the
Mossad - or the CIA… Clearly there was an effort to demonize Sharon so that any
attempt at a fact-based consideration of his actions would immediately
marginalize one as an “apologist for a Nazi.”

In email list discussions, people argued that they could empathize with the
Palestinian suicide bombers because, “What else can they do?” Others justified
murdering *any* Israeli citizen because all were part of an “oppressor state.”
Yet nobody on these lists made such harsh judgments, let us say, about Belgium,
whose unbelievable crimes in Congo[6] and against Yugoslavia (as part of NATO)
are a matter of public record. Nor, for that matter, were they made about the
US and Britain for what they did to Yugoslavia and Afghanistan. And what about
the Palestinian Authority, which kills Arabs if they are caught selling land to
Jews? Indeed, they didn’t talk this way about any country or organization in
the world, except for the Israeli Jews.

Was something wrong with this picture?

There is simply no excuse for Zionism in today's world! It is a racist ideology that has no place in progressive democratic civilization! A "democracy" for "Jews-only" simply is NOT a true democracy in today's world! Sorry! Ethnic cleansing is NOT acceptable no matter what way you slice and dice it! No matter who does it to whom!

As far as the Serbs and the Croats, I really haven't had the time to investigate all the complications about that conflict, since my tax dollars doesn't fund it, like the way our US government gives Israel all the money it wants and all the weapons it needs and all the diplomatic wink-winks it demands and looks the other way while Israel continues persecuting and oppressing the Palestinian people in the most cruelest of manners, in many ways just like what the Nazis did to Jews. In fact, Zionism is more or less an offshoot of Nazism, the flip side of it.

I do know the Serbs have animosity for the Jews since for some unknown reason (to me), the Jews threw their money and political weight behind the Croats.

The Serbs have a website called http://www.compuserb.org, I believe, or just do a Google-search on "Kosher Food Tax", and you'll find the site. They illuminate the "Kosher" food tax scam that causes Americans to unwittingly pay into the Jewish agenda (and no doubt Israel). It is a huge scam, and gives untold millions, maybe billions of dollars to Zionist groups. Check it out! Do a Google-search on Kosher Food Tax (U) (K). Look in your cupboards! Almost everything from your cereal to your plastic baggies and Reynolds wrap has the Kosher symbols of U in a circle or a K or the word Parve on it! Shocking, but true!

The way it works is rabbis meet with the manufacturers and tell them that in order for the manufacturer to have the kosher symbol on their products (K or U or Parve) then the manufacturer will have to pay a certain amount of money for this privilege, or otherwise, Jews will not buy their products without the symbol. All the money paid is strictly confidential and not available to the public, although when an article first appeared about it in the '50s it was supposedly worth millions in revenues even back then. Now that info is a stricly guarded secret.

The manufacturers bury the cost of the Kosher Food Tax into the cost of the product, and voila, we become unwitting accomplices in aiding the Zionist agenda, as we all know that money buys off our politicians,etc..

You know, Wendy, you still haven't managed to answer a very simple yes or no question.

About a week ago, you seemed to imply that Ashkenazi Jews are not descended from the Israelites, and are instead "Japhethites." I don't want to force words into your mouth on this, so I'd like to know -- is this what you meant to say?

Thanks in advance for a straight, clear answer.

@%<

I feel like I'm seeing Wendy melt down before my very eyes.

Oh, Wendy, you poor thing. Are you now really embracing the Kosher Tax canard?

@%<

why are you idiots debating with a Nazi?

Because, up until the last week or so, she hadn't made it clear just how much of what she believes about the Jews comes straight from the white supremecist playbook. She'd certainly dropped hints, but nothing like what's transpired over the last week.

And now that her cards are on the table, I just want to lay it all out as plainly as possible for those who might not be as familiar with the rhetoric of historical antisemitism. I know folks who know about the "Ashkenazi = Khazar" canard and its roots in the white supremecist movements like Christian Identity and British Israelitism, but if you're new to the subject, you won't necessarily know just _which_ bit of deep goofiness she's just publicly embraced, nor its inherently antisemitic nature.

Nor might you know that the "kosher tax" canard is a favorite of antisemites trying to imply -- or outright state, as Wendy did -- a great grand Jewish money conspiracy to cheat non-Jews. It's a trope I've heard probably a hundred times in alt.revisionism: "I'm just a poor objective observer soccer mom, but I've recently done a websearch to discover that THE JEWS EAT BABIES, and you should do a Google search to pull up all the Nazi sites that prove it."

And I particularly want the readers to understand, as viscerally as I do, why it's so hysterical a hypocricy for her to claim she's doing what she's doing in the name of "fighting all racism."

@%<

I can see why you're so upset, Nessie. You always get upset to discover the degree to which discourse about your pet cause is shaped by antisemitism. And so you always want to sweep it under the rug as soon as possible.

The base post in this thread is a perfect example. Granted, you already split with Wendy over the abortion issue. But how many readers were right there, saying go-Wendy-go, until the revelations of this week?

And now that Wendy's outed, what do you do? "Hush, Gehrig! Hush it up! You're being uppity again!"

This was exactly Rabbi Lerner's point -- that were this some other kind of prejudice, maybe the progressives and Marxists, so blinded by their hatred of The Zionist, wouldn't be so willing to do what you're doing right now, attempting to sweep antisemitism in the movement under the carpet, to minimize it, to blame it on your pet term "roorback."

In doing so, you compromise the ethical structure of the pro-Palestinian movement itself. The Palestinians don't need Wendys, but do they need you _enabling_ the Wendys of the movement, saying "oh, don't mind my crazy sister, the one who hates The Jew"?

And, as Lerner pointed out, this is not simply an academic issue. When they see folks like you in the anti-war movement, folks apparently so willing to shrug off antisemitism within the movement or even -- as you routinely do -- blame it on A Nefarious Zionist Plot To Gain Sympathy -- well, there are quite a few Jews who recoil at the hypocrisy. Especially when that antisemitism is being presented in the sanctimonious guise of anti-racism, as Wendy did.

To turn to those who point out that, no shit, antisemitism within a movement is a pretty damned divisive thing, and then accuse _them_ (and me) of being the divisive ones, and that we should shut the hell up already -- well, that's just absurd, and it makes you look like a fool.

@%<

I probably agree with 75% of what the "anti-Zionists" on here post but hate the word Zionism.

From what I remember Zionism started as a pseudo religious concept that almost resembled the “Back to Africa” movement in the US at the same time. While getting one’s own state seemed like good idea in 1815, Liberia created problems to that later found in Israel. Establishing a state based of colonizers tends to result in/from genocide (ie Australia, the Americas etc..) but in both the case of Liberia and Israel there was a feeling that this was “going home” that created a weird dynamic to the new colonies (new states with divided populations between those from before and after the colonization). While many African Americans saw this movement back to Africa as giving up on gaining freedoms in the US, many Jews in Europe disagreed strongly with Zionists at the time for the same reasons. In the early 1900s many Jewish American newspapers were strongly antiZionist (I think it may have had to do with Zionists looking down on Yiddish as a language and other similar factors but I haven’t found too much information aide from a few articles in Freiheit) Zionism as a concept started out as flawed but hardly evil or even threatening.

But as Israel formed and became rich, pseudo-religous Jewish nationalism started to turn into its modern form of Israeli nationalism. The new Israeli nationalism has racist elements (which the Palestinians call “Zionism”) but it’s not that different from racist nationalism in Europe and the US. Not that it’s impossible to be nationalist and non-racist (since one can define ones state by citizenship across ethnic boundaries), but that is rare. Nationalists in the US who attack immigration usually mean “nonwhite” immigration. Nationalism usually involves some idealized view of ones own culture and in the case of Israel that coincides somewhat with beliefs of the early Zionist movement. This isn’t that different from American ultra-nationalism which tends to get mixed up with the Christian Coalition who call themselves Evangelical(even though there is not necessarily a right wing or racist element to Evangelical Christianity in theory).

These days Zionism (for some on the Left and for many in the Middle East) seems to mean the hawkish nationalism one find in Sharon and before him Begin. At some level this isn’t even really nationalism but cynical realpolitik (“a ruthlessly realistic and opportunist approach to statesmanship, rather than a moralistic one”). Sharon and Begin defined their enemies based off nationalistic ideals but most of their actions are/were not tied to specific ethnic hatreds but instead callous disregard for human life in an effort to win battles. Israel’s open use of torture, curfews, extrajudicial executions, etc… are now defined as “Zionism” and as one would expect the same divide that exists on civil liberties in the US with things like the Patriot act tends to define current views on “Zionism” (but there is no similar catch word to describe the inhumanity of a Wolfowitz or Richard Perle).

I oppose Israel’s current actions as only feeding violence. I think the occupation is rather unique in recent years in the amount of time it has kept a conquered people as noncitizens. In some sense, I agree with all of those posting “antiZionist” posts to this site since I think the world (outside of the Middle East) often ignores the plight of the Palestinian people. But “Zionism” seems hardly the world for what I oppose today.

"I oppose Israel’s current actions as only feeding violence. I think the occupation is rather unique in recent years in the amount of time it has kept a conquered people as noncitizens. In some sense, I agree with all of those posting “antiZionist” posts to this site since I think the world (outside of the Middle East) often ignores the plight of the Palestinian people. But “Zionism” seems hardly the world for what I oppose today. "

I think this makes a lot of sense. If you equate Zionism with Sharon -- or Meyer Kahane -- then it's no surprise that you consider it inherently evil. I have often said that there's nothing wrong with Ariel Sharon that couldn't be cured by a falling piano.

But there's a world of difference between saying "Sharon's policies are destructive and counterproductive" and saying, as folks like Nessie and Wendy to, "and therefore Israel should be dismantled."

I think the first one is an important message, and one widely shared by a lot of leftist Zionists. But making assent to the latter one a litmus test -- "if you can't agree with it, you're an ee-e-e-evil Zi-i-ionist, and I will heap vituperation on you and call you Nazi" -- is surreal at best.

@%<

The problem is not just Menachem Begin and Ariel Sharon. The main problem with Israel is that it attempts to create an exclusive Jewish state in a land that has non-Jews. This is no different that attempting to create an exclusivley "white state" in terms of the racism that has to go along with it when those who are not of the right ethnicity are discriminated against or murdered in order to "purify" the land. This ideology runs straight through most of Israeli society like the Labor party and parts of Israel's "peace camp." Shimon Peres of the Labor party bombed a UN compound in Qana, Lebanon in 1996 without any real pretext.
See:
http://www.robert-fisk.com/articles14.htm

"As far as the ‘peace’ camp in Israel is concerned, well, I don’t have to tell you that this term is used rather loosely. A lot of the people in the peace camp are kind of like American liberals. They want the Israeli occupation to work quietly, without killing too many people. That is called the peace camp. I mean, I can read a journal, like say Israel Horizons, which is the publication of the Meretz Party in the United States. Meretz is the kind of end of the extreme dovish party. I just happened to look at their last issue a couple of days ago. I mean, it’s the peace camp, in the sense that the New York Times was the peace camp in Vietnam in 1969. You know, it’s getting out of hand, it’s too bloody, they deny everything that is happening, and so on. We are very familiar with this. There are people who are authentically committed to justice - that would easily fit in this auditorium. It’s not all that different here or in other countries."
-Noam Chomsky
http://web.media.mit.edu/~nitin/mideast/chomsky_qa.html

There are a few in Israel (like the late Israel Shahak, Ilan Pappe, and Israel Shamir) who have shed the racist idea that Israel ought to be an exclusively Jewish state and who are trying to reverse the discriminatory laws against Palestinians and allow all those expelled a right of return or compensation. But unfortunately, they are the exception rather than the rule.

Israel's supporters constantly refer to the "demographic problem" or the "Jewish character" of Israel. These are racist terms which denegrate Palestinians. They speak of anti-Zionists as wanting to "destroy Israel" when in reality what is said is that Israel should do away with its attempt at maintaining its "Jewish character" and change its laws to allow equal rights for all. This is not the destruction of Israel but an anti-racist argument.

I would really recommend that you check out Noam Chomsky's "Fateful Triangle" to get an idea of the real history of this conflict (which is really an Israeli Occupation rather than a "conflict" which suggests that there is some sort of symmetry between those Occupied and their Occupiers).

"There are a few in Israel (like the late Israel Shahak, Ilan Pappe, and Israel Shamir) who have shed the racist idea that Israel ought to be an exclusively Jewish state ..."

Then they've fed you bullshit about what Zionism is, because Zionism was never about building an exclusively Jewish state. It was, and is, about building a state with a Jewish character.

It's like saying that the US isn't officially a Christian nation, but -- by an odd coincidence -- the banks are all closed on Sundays and Christmas is a national holiday.

This is a distinction that the "Israel should be dismantled" crowd can consistently be counted on to blur into negation.

@%<

"Israel's supporters constantly refer to the "demographic problem" or the "Jewish character" of Israel. "

Thats nationalism and racism but not "Zionism" really. You hear right wingers in the US (like Buchanan) talking against immigration as destroying American culture but there isnta word like "Zionist" for that.

Israel was founded on ethnic cleansing (most of which occured between 50 and 80 years ago); arguments about who started the conflict should not change this fact since the result was a stark demographic change with a huge Palestinian displacement (some of this occured relatively peacefully during land aquistions during the second Aliyah but that still constitutes ethnic cleansing in some form). Much of the Americas and Australia were likewise founded on ethnnic cleansing much of which happened around 100-150 years ago. 50 years ago is still within living memory so that does make a difference but Israel (like the US) wont disappear since the population is large and most of those who came to Israel (just like the US) were refugees who no longer have ties to other countries.

The occupation should be ended or the population of the West Bank and Gaza should become full Israeli citizens (S Africa is a case where integration of populations into a single state has happened relatively peacefully since the end of aparthied).Two states probably wont end the conflict once and for all whereas one state might since as members of a common state people may learn to have common interests. But two states has until recently seemed more realistic with one state being seen as the destruction of Israel (which it would not be since I would guess that the structure of government would stay the same and Israel's economy would be helped a lot by the full integration of Palestinian labor). The problem now is that two states seems farther and farther away. The Palestinian Authority is being dismantled by Israel, settlements are growing and so is the nonJewish Palestinian population of Israel itself. A single secular state is becoming more and more likely since the expansion of Israel proper (settlers have the right to vote)will soon require full citizenship for the West Bank and Gaza.

Some of the fear in Israel of those who call for a single state is not of secularism but of things like Sharia. But if one looks at public opinion among Palestinians support for goups like Hamas seems mainly dependent on actions rather than ideology so I think the fear of increased religous opression is unfounded. Hatreds between groups is likewise seen as a major issue but if S Africa could work, Israel should be able to work also.

A secular democratic Israeli state composed of Palestinians and Jews with almost equal numbers would set an example for the Middle East. Saudi Arabia's extremism, Syria's dictatorhip and Iran's rule by clergy would all be threatened by an end to the Palestinian conflict (especially an end where Israel's right to exist would have to be accepted due to new moral and economic power a democratic Jewish/Palestinian leadership would have within the region)

When I said, maybe an hour ago, "Then they've fed you bullshit about what Zionism is, because Zionism was never about building an exclusively Jewish state. It was, and is, about building a state with a Jewish character. "

Do you deny that, say, the US has a Christian character, as evidenced by the celebration of Christmas as a Federal holiday? Yet do you see the enormous difference between that and saying that the US Constitution descriminates against non-Christians, an argument analogous to the one you're trying to make about Israel?

@%<

Israel does allow people who are Jewish to immigrate much much easier than those who are not. That was true from the start although I dont know if its part of the Constitution.The US has in the past had immigration policies that discriminted against nonChristians and Im guessing it currently has an antiMuslim bias in terms of visas. But, its not as fundmental a part of the state as Israeli immigration policies that were initially about settlement and displacement.

--"Israel was founded on ethnic cleansing (most of which occured between 50 and 80 years ago)"

The mass of the Palestinian population (750,000) was expelled using massacres in several dozen villages in 1948.

Another expulsion occurred in 1967 in which Israel expelled around 500,000. This was 36 years ago.

The fact that this happened 36 or 55 years ago does not negate the Palestinians' right to return to their homes or at the very least be compensated for it by Israel.

"By 1948, the Jew was not only able to 'defend himself' but to commit massive atrocities as well. Indeed, according to the former director of the Israeli army archives, 'in almost every village occupied by us during the War of Independence, acts were committed which are defined as war crimes, such as murders, massacres, and rapes'...Uri Milstein, the authoritative Israeli military historian of the 1948 war, goes one step further, maintaining that 'every skirmish ended in a massacre of Arabs.'"
-Norman Finkelstein
from "Image and Reality of the Israel-Palestine Conflict"

"The fact that the Arabs fled in terror, because of real fear of a repetition of the 1948 Zionist massacres, is no reason for denying them their homes, fields and livelihoods. Civilians caught in an area of military activity generally panic. But they have always been able to return to their homes when the danger subsides. Military conquest does not abolish private rights to property; nor does it entitle the victor to confiscate the homes, property and personal belongings of the noncombatant civilian population. The seizure of Arab property by the Israelis was an outrage."
-Sami Hadawi
from "Bitter Harvest"


Ethnic cleansing is still going on in the Occupied Territories. Israel makes the people there "live like dogs" in order to get them to move out. And there is a real danger that Israel will use the Iraq War to expel hundreds of thousands of Palestinians once again.

As I've said, learn the real history of what's gone on there, not just what you've been taught in the media and school. Much of this is fabrication designed to protect Israel from criticism. Part of my frustration with people who are truly anti-racist and well meaning is that they are still immersed in Israeli propaganda.

Please, please check out or buy Noam Chomsky's "Fateful Triangle" and have a look. It really is an eye-opener.


--"You hear right wingers in the US (like Buchanan) talking against immigration as destroying American culture but there isnta word like 'Zionist' for that."

There is a word for it. It's called racism.

I don't like the word "Zionism" either. Like "Imperialism," it tends to rub people the wrong way though it is a technically correct usage. But I would not immediately assume that anyone who uses that word is a racist or hater.

nessie and editors with a conscience: please ban gehrig from Indymedia. He has revealed himself to be nothing more than a cowardly Zionist slinging unfounded slurs at the most virtuous Wendy, claiming things just out of the thin air as it appears. And on top of that he quotes from the Zionist organization ADL, (which as you may recall lost a law suit for illegally spying on anti-Zionist Americans Jews) to defend the bogus "kosher food tax"! There's a dead giveaway about what he's all about! Do we really need his Zionist propaganda here at Indymedia? I think not. He has far outlasted his usefulness a foil to show people how hollow and cowardly all his arguments in favor of Zionism are. By the way, I'm sure some rabbis use that "you must be such an anti-semite!" argument if a manufacturer says back "Sorry, I don't want to buy into the Jewish agenda which is largely Zionist and pro-ethnic cleansing of non-Jews in Palestine-Israel! Besides the USDA is good enough for me, thank you very much! And don't let the door hit you on the way out!" I do encourage everyone to read about the scam of the "kosher food tax" by doing a google-search if you're interested. Hey, if you don't mind the kosher food tax, that's your business, but I think that it's a scam and it shouldn't be allowed, especially considering what it ultimately funds, and it's a "secret" on top of that.

Wahhh, the baby's crying! Oh no, people might reveal FACTS and VALID OPINIONS BASED ON REALITY that might dispell your crazed anti-zionist lunatic rants!!! WAHHHHHH! Please, indymedia, don't let us read information that might teach us something, we MIGHT even be tempted with REALITY, that israel isn't as bad as we say, and we actually give way too much support to arabs whose leaders are crazed religious zealot ASSHOLES who ARE jew-haters as well as israel-haters, wahhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!

"the most virtuous Wendy"

... if she _does_ say so herself! @%)

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Maybe Gehrig hasn't outlived his usefulness yet afterall--- this could be very amusing.

Wendy is obviously very courageous in not only stating her position sticking up for equal rights for all including Palestinians in spite of the predictable accusations of "anti-Semite", "Nazi", "white supremacist" and so on, which she lets go in one ear and out the other. Why she even uses her own name and posted her picture above at the rally and her film premiere. Quite bold. Obviously she feels very secure in her conviction of the need for justice for the Palestinians for world peace.

However, Gehrig hides behind a phoney nickname, and his Zionist propaganda borrowed from the ADL, which many know to be the PR arm of Israel and an information gatherer for the Israeli Mossad spy department, and he has thus far declined to post a photo of himself.

I dare Gehrig to reveal his true identity and post a photo of himself!
(This should be interesting!)

"According to official records of the League of Nations and Arab census figure 539,000 Arabs left Israel at the urging of 7 converging Arab armies so that they would not be in the way of their attack. They promised the fleeing Arabs they would return and move into the Jews' houses after the anticipated successful annihilation of the Jews.
"We know that 850,000 Jews were ejected from the Arab countries where they had lived for hundreds of years. This included successful people whose property and assets, including community assets were immediately confiscated. 750,000 penniless Jews from Arab countries fled to Israel.

"This was a virtual exchange of population. The Jewish refugees were immediately accepted by the new State of Israel. They were provided with shelter (albeit temporary tents) food and clothing.

"The Arab refugees who had migrated to various Arab nations were not similarly well received. They were regarded not as Arab brothers but as unwelcome migrants who were not to be trusted. Squalid refugee camps were set up as showpieces to induce the West's sympathy and kept that way. The UN through UNRWA (UN Relief Agency) provided assistance to the camps when the host country could not or would not. These camps became a training ground for terrorist youth to be targeted at Israel. The host country, like Syria, would provide training, weapons and explosives, but refused to absorb the Arab refugees as equal citizens. Keeping them in misery made them valuable and irreplaceable as angry front line terrorists attacking Israel as proxies for the Arab armies who lost to the Jews on the field of battle in declared wars. The Twin Pillars supporting Arab Muslim society are "Pride and Shame". Losing to the Jews on the battlefield time and again in 6 wars shattered the self perception of the Macho Man.

"I dare Gehrig to reveal his true identity and post a photo of himself! (This should be interesting!) "

Gehrig, you should do it as long as Wendy posts her photo to Free Republic. Better yet, do it for her. Let her know, of course. Her email address is wendy [at] norcoprint.com

What is the point of your anti-zionism rally? Do you want Israel to cease to exist? Where do you want the 5 million Jews there to go? Should they sell their homes and try to move back to Iraq, Jordan, Libya, Syria, Lebanon etc. and be killed?
Should they move back to Russia and go back to being discrimated against?
Should they move to Germany and become homeless, since they don't own homes there anymore?
They can't all move to the U.S. and Canada. There are immigration limitations, you know. Maybe a few hundred or few thousand a year can move in, at the most.

Do you want Hamas to win? They want every jew in palestine/israel/area dead. They've made this clear. It's way beyond politics with them, it's beyond anti-israel, it's about wanting every jew in that region dead.

So, where do you want the Jews to go? If we all just die, will you be happy, then? Rhetorical question, obviously the answer for many of you is Yes.

>Do you want Hamas to win?

No. They're no better than Zionists.


>Do you want Israel to cease to exist?

Yes. it's a racist, apartheid, aggressor state.


>Where do you want the 5 million Jews there to go?

They should stay right where they are, not as conquerers, but a equal citizens of a secular, democratic society in which every individual is equal, no matter who their mother was.

By an extraordinary coincidence, my true identity _is_ Gehrig. That's what it says on my birth certificate, voter registration card, driver's license, and checkbook. It's my last name.

I know the idea of actually using even a _part_ of one's own name to sign an IMC post must seem fantastic, unearthly, strange beyond recounting to some of you. It smacks of -- I don't know -- actually taking responsibility for what you write, doesn't it.

If you're curious, I'm forty, a sixth-generation American (thereby beating Wendy by two generations, if I recall), am the son of a WWII Navy vet, grandson of a WWI vet, and -- although I can't remember the details off the top of my head -- also descended from a drummer boy in the Civil War. In the last election I voted Democratic, except for the one Green candidate on the local ballot, whom I voted for _despite_ his Chomskyite take on the Mideast, for the simple reason that I can't force myself to truly dislike anyone who's made it through _Gravity's Rainbow_ more than once.

As a student of the pathologies of pseudo-scholastic rhetoric -- "creation science," astrology, that sort of thing -- I got fascinated with that particular mental train wreck known as Holocaust denial. That in turn led me to the broader study of what white supremecists actually teach about the Jews, which is why I've been able to spot so many examples where people have been (intentionally or unintentionally) quoting Holocaust denial sites, or old antisemitic canards like Wendy's last straw, the "Kosher food tax scam."

Needless to say, I don't feel particularly compelled to be goaded into revealing more personal than that by anony-mice.

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Hamas are infinitely worse than zionists, you stupid crazy motherfucking piece of shit lying lunatic.

Israel is infinitely less "racist" than the countries RIGHT AROUND ISRAEL, why do you single Israel out?

I don't understnad how you can look at the DICTATORSHIPS and KINGDOM arab countries right around israel and have the gall to claim that at this point in time, arabs there would tolerate a democracy with a massive jewish population

What happened during the war of 1948 that caused the Palestinian refugee problem? Did the Jews expel the Arabs?

The British had wrestled Palestine away from the Ottoman Turks in 1917, and they occupied Palestine until 1947, and shortly thereafter, the United Nations voted to divide western Palestine into separate Jewish and Arab areas. The Jews accepted this plan, and the Arabs rejected it. Not only did they reject the UN partition plan, but 7 Arab nations decided to attack the fledgeling Jewish microstate with public proclamations of Jewish extermination. It was surrounding these events that the Palestinian Arab refugee problem was born:

"According to official records of the League of Nations and Arab census figure 539,000 Arabs left Israel at the urging of 7 converging Arab armies so that they would not be in the way of their attack. They promised the fleeing Arabs they would return and move into the Jews' houses after the anticipated successful annihilation of the Jews.
"We know that 850,000 Jews were ejected from the Arab countries where they had lived for hundreds of years. This included successful people whose property and assets, including community assets were immediately confiscated. 750,000 penniless Jews from Arab countries fled to Israel.

"This was a virtual exchange of population. The Jewish refugees were immediately accepted by the new State of Israel. They were provided with shelter (albeit temporary tents) food and clothing.

"The Arab refugees who had migrated to various Arab nations were not similarly well received. They were regarded not as Arab brothers but as unwelcome migrants who were not to be trusted. Squalid refugee camps were set up as showpieces to induce the West's sympathy and kept that way. The UN through UNRWA (UN Relief Agency) provided assistance to the camps when the host country could not or would not. These camps became a training ground for terrorist youth to be targeted at Israel. The host country, like Syria, would provide training, weapons and explosives, but refused to absorb the Arab refugees as equal citizens. Keeping them in misery made them valuable and irreplaceable as angry front line terrorists attacking Israel as proxies for the Arab armies who lost to the Jews on the field of battle in declared wars. The Twin Pillars supporting Arab Muslim society are "Pride and Shame". Losing to the Jews on the battlefield time and again in 6 wars shattered the self perception of the Macho Man.

- Emanuel A. Winston, Middle East analyst & commentator


THE HISTORICAL EVIDENCE:

"Even amidst the violent attacks launched against us for months past, we call upon the sons of the Arab people dwelling in Israel to keep the peace and to play their part in building the State on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its institutions, provisional and permanent.
"We extend the hand of peace and good-neighborliness to all the States around us and to their people, and we call upon them to cooperate in mutual helpfulness with the independent Jewish nation in its Land. The State of Israel is prepared to make its contribution in a concerted effort for the advancement of the entire Middle East."

- David Ben-Gurion, in Israel's Proclamation of Independence, read on May 14, 1948, moments before the 6 surrounding Arab armies, trained and armed by the British, invaded the day-old Jewish microstate, with the stated goal of extermination.


"The Arab armies entered Palestine to protect the Palestinians from the Zionist tyranny but, instead, THEY ABANDONED THEM, FORCED THEM TO EMIGRATE AND TO LEAVE THEIR HOMELAND, imposed upon them a political and ideological blockade and threw them into prisons similar to the ghettos in which the Jews used to live in Eastern Europe, as if we were condemmed to change places with them; they moved out of their ghettos and we occupied similar ones. The Arab States succeeded in scattering the Palestinian people and in destroying their unity. They did not recognize them as a unified people until the States of the world did so, and this is regrettable".
- by Abu Mazen, from the article titled: "What We Have Learned and What We Should Do", published in Falastin el Thawra, the official journal of the PLO, of Beirut, in March 1976


"The first group of our fifth column consists of those who abandon their houses and businesses and go to live elsewhere. . . . At the first sign of trouble they take to their heels to escape sharing the burden of struggle."
- Ash Shalab (Jaffa newspaper), January 30, 1948


"The Arab streets are curiously deserted and, ardently following the poor example of the more moneyed class there has been an exodus from Jerusalem too, though not to the same extent as in Jaffa and Haifa."
- London Times, May 5, 1948


"The refugees were confident that their absence would not last long, and that they would return within a week or two. Their leaders had promised them that the Arab armies would crush the 'Zionist gangs' very quickly and that there was no need for panic or fear of a long exile."
- Monsignor George Hakim, Greek Catholic Bishop of Galilee, in the Beirut newspaper Sada al Janub, August 16, 1948


"Of the 62,000 Arabs who formerly lived in Haifa not more than 5,000 or 6,000 remained. Various factors influenced their decision to seek safety in flight. There is but little doubt that the most potent of the factors were the announcements made over the air by the -Higher Arab Executive, urging the Arabs to quit.. . . It was clearly intimated that those Arabs who remained in Haifa and accepted Jewish protection would be regarded as renegades."
- The London weekly Economist, October 2, 1948


"It must not be forgotten that the Arab Higher Committee encouraged the refugees' flight from their homes in Jaffa, Haifa, and Jerusalem."
- Near East Arabic Broadcasting Station, Cyprus, April 3, 1949


"This wholesale exodus was due partly to the belief of the Arabs, encouraged by the boasting of an unrealistic Arab press and the irresponsible utterances of some of the Arab leaders that it could be only a matter of some weeks before the Jews were defeated by the armies of the Arab States and the Palestinian Arabs enabled to re-enter and retake possession of their country."
- Edward Atiyah (then Secretary of the Arab League Office in London) in The Arabs (London, 1955), p. 183


"The mass evacuation, prompted partly by fear, partly by order of Arab leaders, left the Arab quarter of Haifa a ghost city...By withdrawing Arab workers their leaders hoped to paralyze Haifa.".
- Time, May 3, 1948, p. 25


The Arab exodus, initially at least, was encouraged by many Arab leaders, such as Haj Amin el Husseini, the exiled pro-Nazi Mufti of Jerusalem, and by the Arab Higher Committee for Palestine. They viewed the first wave of Arab setbacks as merely transitory. Let the Palestine Arabs flee into neighboring countries. It would serve to arouse the other Arab peoples to greater effort, and when the Arab invasion struck, the Palestinians could return to their homes and be compensated with the property of Jews driven into the sea.
- Kenneth Bilby, in New Star in the Near East (New York, 1950), pp. 30-31


I do not want to impugn anybody but only to help the refugees. The fact that there are these refugees is the direct consequence of the action of the Arab States in opposing Partition and the Jewish State. The Arab States agreed upon this policy unanimously and they must share in the solution of the problem, [Daily Telegraph, September 6, 19481
- Emil Ghoury, Secretary of the Arab Higher Committee, the official leadership of the Palestinian Arabs, in the Beirut newspaper, Daily Telegraph, September 6, 1948


The Arab States encouraged the Palestine Arabs to leave their homes temporarily in order to be out of the way of the Arab invasion armies.
- Falastin (Jordanian newspaper), February 19, 1949


We will smash the country with our guns and obliterate every place the Jews seek shelter in. The Arabs should conduct their wives and children to safe areas until the fighting has died down.
- Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri Said, quoted in Sir Am Nakbah ("The Secret Behind the Disaster") by Nimr el Hawari, Nazareth, 1952


The Secretary General of the Arab League, Azzam Pasha, assured the Arab peoples that the occupation of Palestine and of Tel Aviv would be as simple as a military promenade. . . . He pointed out that they were already on the frontiers and that all the millions the Jews had spent on land and economic development would be easy booty, for it would be a simple matter to throw Jews into the Mediterranean. . . Brotherly advice was given to the Arabs of Palestine to leave their land, homes, and property and to stay temporarily in neighboring fraternal states, lest the guns of the invading Arab armies mow them down.
- Habib Issa, Secretary General of the Arab League (Azzam Pasha's successor), in the newspaper Al Hoda, June 8, 1951


Some of the Arab leaders and their ministers in Arab capitals . . . declared that they welcomed the immigration of Palestinian Arabs into the Arab countries until they saved Palestine. Many of the Palestinian Arabs were misled by their declarations.... It was natural for those Palestinian Arabs who felt impelled to leave their country to take refuge in Arab lands . . . and to stay in such adjacent places in order to maintain contact with their country so that to return to it would be easy when, according to the promises of many of those responsible in the Arab countries (promises which were given wastefully), the time was ripe. Many were of the opinion that such an opportunity would come in the hours between sunset and sunrise.
- Arab Higher Committee, in a memorandum to the Arab League, Cairo, 1952, quoted in The Refugee in the World, by Joseph B. Schechtman, 1963


"The Arab governments told us: Get out so that we can get in. So we got out, but they did not get in."
- from the Jordan daily Ad Difaa, September 6, 1954


"The Arab civilians panicked and fled ignominiously. Villages were frequently abandoned before they were threatened by the progress of war."
- General Glubb Pasha, in the London Daily Mail on August 12, 1948


"The Arab exodus from other villages was not caused by the actual battle, but by the exaggerated description spread by Arab leaders to incite them to fight the Jews"
- Yunes Ahmed Assad, refugee from the town of Deir Yassin, in Al Urdun, April 9, 1953


"[The Arabs of Haifa] fled in spite of the fact that the Jewish authorities guaranteed their safety and rights as citizens of Israel."
- Monsignor George Hakim, Greek Catholic Bishop of Galilee, according to Rev. Karl Baehr, Executive Secretary of the American Christian Palestine Committee, New York Herald Tribune, June 30, 1949


"Every effort is being made by the Jews to persuade the Arab populace to stay and carry on with their normal lives, to get their shops and businesses open and to be assured that their lives and interests will be safe. [However] ...A large road convoy, escorted by [British] military . . . left Haifa for Beirut yesterday. . . . Evacuation by sea goes on steadily. ...[Two days later, the Jews were] still making every effort to persuade the Arab populace to remain and to settle back into their normal lives in the towns... [as for the Arabs,] another convoy left Tireh for Transjordan, and the evacuation by sea continues. The quays and harbor are still crowded with refugees and their household effects, all omitting no opportunity to get a place an one of the boats leaving Haifa.""
- Haifa District HQ of the British Police, April 26, 1948, quoted in Battleground by Samuel Katz


"The Arabs did not want to submit to a truce they rather preferred to abandon their homes, their belongings and everything they possessed in the world and leave the town. This is in fact what they did."
- Jamal Husseini, Acting Chairman of the Palestine Arab Higher Committee, told to the United Nations Security Council, quoted in the UNSC Official Records (N. 62), April 23, 1948, p. 14


"the military and civil authorities and the Jewish representative expressed their profound regret at this grave decision [to evacuate]. The [Jewish] Mayor of Haifa made a passionate appeal to the delegation to reconsider its decision"
- The Arab National Committee of Haifa, told to the Arab League, quoted in The Refugee in the World, by Joseph B. Schechtman, 1963


"...our city flourished and developed for the good of both Jewish and Arab residents ... Do not destroy your homes with your own hands; do not bring tragedy upon yourselves by unnecessary evacuation and self-imposed burdens. By moving out you will be overtaken by poverty and humiliation. But in this city, yours and ours, Haifa, the gates are open for work, for life, and for peace, for you and your families."
The Haifa Workers' Council bulletin, 28 April 1948


"...the Jewish hagana asked (using loudspeakers) Arabs to remain at their homes but the most of the Arab population followed their leaders who asked them to leave the country."
The TIMES of London, reporting events of 22.4.48


" The existence of these refugees is a direct result of the Arab States' opposition to the partition plan and the reconstitution of the State of Israel. The Arab states adopted this policy unanimously, and the responsibility of its results, therefore is theirs.
...The flight of Arabs from the territory allotted by the UN for the Jewish state began immediately after the General Assembly decision at the end of November 1947. This wave of emigration, which lasted several weeks, comprised some thirty thousand people, chiefly well-to-do-families."

- Emil Ghory, secretary of the Arab High Council, Lebanese daily Al-Telegraph, 6 Sept 1948


"Since 1948 we have been demanding the return of the refugees to their homes. But we ourselves are the ones who encouraged them to leave. Only a few months separated our call to them to leave and our appeal to the United Nations to resolve on their return."
- Haled al Azm, the Syrian Prime Minister in 1948-49, The Memoirs of Haled al Azm, (Beirut, 1973), Part 1, pp. 386-387


"Since 1948 it is we who demanded the return of refugees... while it is we who made them to leave... We brought disaster upon... Arab refugees, by inviting them and bringing pressure to bear upon them to leave... We have rendered them dispossessed... We have accustomed them to begging... We have participated in lowering their moral and social level... Then we exploited them in executing crimes of murder, arson, and throwing bombs upon... men, women and children - all this in service of political purposes..."
- Khaled al Azm, Syria's Prime Minister after the 1948 war [note: same person as above]


"As early as the first months of 1948 the Arab League issued orders exhorting the people to seek a temporary refuge in neighboring countries, later to return to their abodes in the wake of the victorious Arab armies and obtain their share of abandoned Jewish property."

- bulletin of The Research Group for European Migration Problems, 1957

One morning in April 1948, Dr. Jamal woke us to say that the Arab Higher Committee (AHC), led by the Husseinis, had warned Arab residents of Talbieh to leave immediately. The understanding was that the residents would be able to return as conquerors as soon as the Arab forces had thrown the Jews out. Dr. Jamal made the point repeatedly that he was leaving because of the AHC's threats, not because of the Jews, and that he and his frail wife had no alternative but to go.
Commentary Magazine -- January 2000, http://www.commentarymagazine.com/0001/letters.html





How many Palestinian Arabs left their homes, how many are still listed as refugees now?

Estimates of the number of Arabs who fled the newly-created State of Israel in 1948 (i.e. from the area inside Israel's pre-1967 borders) vary from 430,000 to 957,000, depending on who you ask. The most reliable figure appears to be 539,000.
In the 1967 Six Day War, between 125,000 (Israeli estimate) and 250,000 (UNRWA estimate) Arabs fled from Judea, Samaria and Gaza, which came under Israeli administration. Of these, say some researchers, close on two-thirds were first-time refugees, the others were refugees from 1948 who fled once again.

According to the United Nations Relief Works Agency (UNRWA), in 1996 the number of refugees stood at 3.3 million, located as follows:

Jordan: In 10 camps - 242,922. Not in camps - 1.1 million

Judea and Samaria: In 20 camps - 147,302. Not in camps - 385,136

Gaza: In five camps - 378,279. Not in camps - 338,651

Lebanon: In 12 camps - 182,731. Not in camps - 169,937

Syria: In 10 camps - 89,472. Not in camps - 257, 919

TOTAL: In 57 camps - 1.04 million. Not in camps - 2.26 million.

- Middle East Digest - October 1998


The refugee problem was created in 1947-48, when the Palestinians and their Arab allies rejected United Nations Resolution 181 and tried to prevent by force implementation of the partition plan that called for the creation of a Jewish state alongside an Arab state in Palestine. During the fighting, 600,000 to 700,000 Arabs fled or were driven out of areas that eventually became the state of Israel. (There were also about 17,000 Jewish refugees who fled or were driven out of areas that came under Arab, i.e., Jordanian, control.) Israel's record in this chain of developments was far from spotless. But the major reason for the displacement of people was the war itself, which the Arabs imposed on Israel in an attempt to abort its birth.
The Palestinian refugees were but one example among many of the large-scale involuntary population displacements that took place during and after the First World War. Most of the other refugee problems, involving tens of millions of Karelian Finns, Sudeten Germans, and Muslims and Hindus in the Indian subcontinent, faded away as displaced populations were absorbed in countries of similar religious and/or national character. The one glaring exception was the Palestinian refugees, who found shelter but few civic or political rights in neighbouring Arab countries (Jordan being the main exception).

The refugee status of the Palestinians was perpetuated by the host countries and the Palestinian leadership, and by the international community, through the UN Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA), the only UN body dedicated to a specific refugee group (all other refugees in the world are the responsibility of the Office of the UN High Commissioner for Refugees). As a result, refugee status was passed down from father to son to grandson over 50 years, so that, today, they number three million to four million. That is why the Palestinians now account for about one-fourth of the world's refugees -- an impressive figure until one imagines how many refugees there would be if all the Finns and Germans and Indian Hindus and Muslims and European Jews who were made refugees after the Second World War (not to speak of the Greeks and Turks and Armenians who were made refugees during and after the First World War) were still considered refugees in the year 2000.

- Mark Heller, co-author of No Trumpets, No Drums: A Two-State Settlement of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict


With regard to the Palestinian refugees today, according to the "Report of the Commissioner-General of the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East - 1 July 1997 - 30 June 1998" there were 3,521,130 refugees as of June 30, 1998 (Table 1). However, the report (available at http://www.unrwa.org) also states that:
UNRWA registration figures are based on information voluntarily supplied by refugees primarily for the purpose of obtaining access to Agency services, and hence cannot be considered statistically valid demographic data; the number of registered refugees present in the Agency's area of operations is almost certainly less that the population recorded.
Moreover, not only does the UN admit the figures are of doubtful accuracy, there being obvious reason for families to claim more members and thereby receive more aid, the UN also admits that the total includes 1,463,064 Jordanian citizens, who cannot by any stretch be considered refugees.
- Alexander Safian, PhD, CAMERA (The Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in America)




Who qualifies for Palestinian refugee status?

Any Arab who entered Israel up to two years prior to the rebirth of the Jewish state could claim to be a Palestinian refugee, even if he and his ancestors had lived elsewhere for generations before and he owned no land or property in Palestine. [Editor's note: the UNRWA collected information from 'refugees' on an 'honor basis' without checking even the above absurdly minimal requirements]
- Middle East Digest - October 1998




Why are there still refugees from 1948, still living in refugee camps generations after the original displacement?

"The Arab states do not want to solve the refugee problem. They want to keep it as an open sore, as an affront to the United Nations and as a weapon against Israel. Arab leaders don't give a damn whether the refugees live or die."
- Ralph Galloway, former head of the UN Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA), in Amman, Jordan, August 1958


"In general, one can say that Arab governments regarded the destruction of the State of Israel as a more pressing matter than the welfare of the Palestinian refugees. Palestinian bitterness and anger had to be kept alive. It was clear that this could best be done by ensuring that a great many Palestinians Arabs continued to live under sub-normal conditions, the victims of hunger and poverty. No Arab Government preached this as a defined policy; most Arab Governments tacitly put it into practice."
- Terrence Prittie and Bernard Dineen, in "The Double Exodus: A Study of Arab and Jewish Refugees in the Middle East"


The decision to sacrifice them [the Palestinian Arab refugees] to the cause of Israel's destruction was clearly enunciated in the aftermath of 1948-49 (keep them in camps so they can learn hate and seek revenge), and no action by Arab elites has shown evidence of a change of heart.
- David S. Landes & Richard A. Landes, The New Republic, September 8, 1997


The Palestinians are the only refugees who cannot and must not be absorbed elsewhere; their fate is to be played up as the mirror image of the Wandering Jew.
- Jacques Givet, "The Anti-Zionist Complex"


In the 1967 Six Day War, under the threat of being "pushed into the sea" by Egypt, Syria and Jordan, Israel actually liberated the "occupied territory" of Jerusalem and granted free access to Jews, Christians and Moslems to worship at their respective holy sites. Israel also liberated the "West Bank" and Gaza. How easily recent history is forgotten. By comparison, Israel's administration, despite its faults, has been much more humane. The realities of the Jordanian and Egyptian occupation are conveyed in the following quote from HARSH REALITIES:

For 19 years, until 1967, Jordan brutally occupied the renamed "West Bank" with its 20 UNWRA refugee camps.... And when western Palestinians rioted in December '55, April '57, April '63, Nov. '66 and April '67, King Hussein sent in tanks which shelled city streets and machine gunned people at random, killing hundreds of men, women and children.

The Gaza Strip, as it was known for the 19 years of harsh Egyptian occupation, had 8 UNWRA refugee camps in which the Palestinians were forced to live in overcrowded squalor. Egypt refused to absorb any refugees; kept them stateless, denied passports, and forbade them to travel or work in Egypt. [On the other hand, Palestinians were permitted to work in Israel after 1967.]

For 19 years of brutal occupation of their fellow Arabs, Jordan and Egypt kept these areas in a deliberate state of economic stagnation and severe unemployment. Average unemployment in the early Sixties ran between 35-45%, and refugee unemployment hit a high of 83%. Yet during this entire period, the world was silent. Only after Israel's seizure of these territories in a defensive war in 1967, did anyone discover the "legitimate rights and national aspirations" of the Palestinian Arabs.

From a humanitarian viewpoint, their situation improved immeasurably under Israeli administration. Unemployment hovers around a mere 1% (1989) and per capita gross income tripled in less than 20 years; infant mortality rates dropped from the pre-1967 140 per 1,000 to only 30 per 1,000 today - at a time when the rest of the Arab world is still at 80 per 1,000; 7 Arab colleges and universities were established under Israel "occupation," where none existed before 1967. Yet it is Israel that is now being attacked.

Had the Arab countries any true intentions of helping their beleaguered brethren from western Palestine, they would and could have absorbed them easily 4 decades ago, as the Israelites did of an even greater number of Jewish refugees from Arab lands. The Palestinian Arabs share the same language, religion and culture, and for 70% of them, the same countries of origin just 3 generations before when their grandfathers emigrated for economic reasons to Palestine from surrounding Arab lands. But the 22 Arab countries, uninterested in aiding in Palestinian brothers, preferred to use them as a political weapon to wield against Israel, and the U.N. supported this heartless human manipulation.

In the mid-1970's Israel attempted to give the Palestinian Arab refugees in Gaza new and better housing. The U.N. General Assembly, at the urging of the Arab states, passed Resolution 32/90 condemning Israel for trying to relocate these refugees and demanded they be returned "to the camps in which they were removed." And yet, a senior U.N. official came to Gaza in January 1988 accompanied by 10 TV crews on a fact-finding visit and laid the entire blame for the situation at Israel's feet. As if the U.N.'s own complicity in the matter didn't exist!

When the six Arab nations invaded Israel at Israel's birth, many claim 600,000 Arabs were displaced in that war. What is not well known is that approximately 800,000 Jews, who were living in those six Arab nations, had to flee for their lives because of Arab hatred. The solution to this refugee problem was simple - a fair exchange.

Israel, at a terrible economic cost, absorbed the 800,000 Jewish refugees But the Arab nations refused to accept these Arab refugees - their Arab brethren. Rather, they placed them in refugee camps, which became dark holes of hate and misery, models for propaganda to turn world opinion against Israel. They succeeded. How well they succeeded....

Refugee Camps
When Israel inherited Judea and Samaria (the "West Bank") and Gaza in the 1967 War, Israel also inherited the Palestinian refugee camps that were administered by a United Nations agency. Israel wanted to negotiate both the refugee problem and a peace settlement, but the Arabs refused. One cannot help but agonize for the poor refugee pawns in this ploy. The deplorable condition of the Palestinian refugees is especially pitiful because the situation was designed and perpetuated by their own Arab brothers. No wonder the "intifada" erupted. Many claim the Arab nations refused to alleviate the refugee problem both in 1948 and in 1967.

Among many who have made this observation is Col. Richard Henry Meinertzhagen, a British Middle East expert. He asked a fellow dinner guest at the home of a British diplomat, "Why do not you Arabs, with all your resources from oil, do something for those wretched refugees from Palestine?" The Lebanese replied, "Good God, do you really think we are going to destroy the finest propaganda we possess? It's a gold mine!" When Meinertzhagen observed that this view was unkind and immoral, the Lebanese replied, "They are just human rubbish, but a political gold mine!" In slightly different language referring to the same attitude about the usefulness of Palestinian refugee camps, Meinertzhagen notes in his book, "I received identical views from other Arabs."

The Palestinians who have taken to the streets, spoiling for trouble, are the new generation-spawned in the refugee camps. From earliest childhood, they have been taught hate.




Who is responsible for their condition, who should absorb them and compensate them?

"Statements have been made on the Arab refugee question, but why should the State of Israel be blamed for the existence of that problem? When seeking to determine responsibility for the existence of the problem of the Arab refugees, we cannot fail to mention the outside forces ... They pursue their own selfish interests ..., which have nothing in common either with the cause of peace and international security or with the interests of the Arab and Jewish peoples, and which only correspond to the aggressive designs of the leading circles of some states."
- Soviet delegation, UN Security Council on 4 March 1949


"Since 1948 Arab leaders have approached the Palestine problem in an irresponsible manner. They have not looked into the future. They have no plan or approach. They have used the Palestine people for selfish political purposes. This is ridiculous and, I could say, criminal."
- Jordan's King Hussein, Associated Press, Jan 1960


Many castigations of Israel for her alleged responsibility for the suffering of Arab refugees have been terribly one-sided and unfair. Why is so little attention paid to the fact that the original refugees in the situation were Jews fleeing the Nazi terror, people who were barred from other lands and then denied access to the one place that could give them hope? Why do we hear almost nothing of the oppression in Arab countries since 1948 of indigenous Jewish populations or of the thousands of Jewish refugees from Arab lands? Why is it hardly ever pointed out that the original and continuing cause of the Arab refugee problem and its recent aggravation has been Arab intransigence and hostility: the refusal to recognize Israel and the pledge to annihilate the Jews? There would be no refugee problem at all if the Arabs had not defied the United Nations' partition. The Arabs started the war in 1948 that forced the refugees to leave -- not to be banished from -- their homes. Israel tried to convince them to stay. Arab leaders frightened them into fleeing, with dire warnings that the Jews would persecute and destroy them.
We are frequently advised that Israel's recent military victory [the six-day war, 1967] is the reason for the increase in refugees, but we are seldom reminded that the latest Arab campaign to destroy Israel was the sole incitement for that victory. An Arab triumph would have left not Jewish refugees but Jewish corpses. Any help Israel now grants to Arab refugees -- and she is already giving succor and beginning to offer resettlement, despite unabated Arab belligerency -- is largely a matter of either prudence or charity. The moral debt is primarily that of the Arab powers, who have callously manipulated these uprooted people to the end of a devious program to exterminate Jews.

- by A. Roy and Alice Eckardt in "AGAIN, SILENCE IN THE CHURCHES", The Christian Century, August 2, 1967


The Arabs blame Israel for creating the Refugee problem while it was the Arabs who insisted to keep the camps in Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon, to use the Palestinians for political exploitation. In 1982: 65,425 Palestinian refu gees put in camps in Syria, 123,442 in Lebanon, 192,392 in Jordan, this was reported by UNRWA, while the Arabic propaganda lied and inflated the number to 4,000,000, and ALL who fled on their own will and without any force. Now, please compare with 850,000 Jews actually expelled from the Arab lands, forced to leave to Israel.
- Walid, a Palestinian Arab defector.
quoted at "Answering Islam"


One of the throw-away lines in Bat Yeor's book, "the Dhimmis" is the observation in passing that the Palestinians are the longest-lived group in history who have been considered "refugees" while living in the land of their countrymen.
Lets expand on that a bit. It is a topic I have written about before. UNRWA (the United Nations Relief and Works Agency) was created in 1949. It exists solely for the purpose of "nurturing" Palestinian refugees, to the exclusion of all the other refugees in the world. 25% of its budget comes from American taxpayers (which includes me). There were 750,000 of these guys in 1949, and there are 3.3 MILLION of them now. And here's where it gets even weirder: 1.2 MILLION of the "refugees" LIVE IN YASSER ARAFAT'S PALESTINIAN AUTONOMY, mingled with their fellow Palestinians, where they actually CONSTITUTE HALF THE POPULATION!

Does that strike anyone else as strange? How can you have people living for 50 years among their brothers, 30 miles down the road from where they started, and still consider them refugees? Will it ever end? Can it ever end? Obviously not as long as the UN continues to pay them money.

And what about their Arab brothers? Ask an Arab to tell you about the five pillars of Islam, of which he is so proud, and he will tell you about "charity to your fellow Muslim". And yet the Arabs forbid the "refugees" from integrating into their host countries. That's because they consider them "a disgrace to Islam, who are responsible for the loss of holy Muslim land to the infidel Jews".

I guess this is just one more example of Shimon Peres' "New Middle East".

- Samuel Fistel



It is important to note that the world has seen hundreds of millions of refugees. It's a natural and expected end result of wars. All have resettled, begun new lives and made the best of their situation. Tens of millions of refugees were created in the aftermath of both World Wars. During the 1948-49 Arab-Israeli War, 860,000 Jews living in Arab countries were thrown out on their ears! We don't hear about them anymore because they were absorbed by their fellow Jews within Israel. So while the Arabs throughout the Middle East cry crocodile tears for their poor suffering Palestinian brothers and sisters, none of these countries has opened their arms to them. The ones that were allowed in were placed into more refugee camps for the world to see. Ironically, the Arabs who remained in Israel and became citizens have fared far better than those in Arab countries! What makes the Palestinian Arabs stand out among the world's refugees is that they created their own pathetic situation or were misled by their leaders. That is their tough luck! What was offered to them in 1947 cannot be offered once again. The world has far more important things to concern itself with other than their constant belly-aching! As they say, "Get a Life, Already!"
- Zion2000


The surrounding Arabs states called for the Arab population to leave Israel and fight in the 1948 war ("a war of extermination and a momentous massacre"). Those that left were told that they could come back and take all the Jews possesions. Those that stayed were told they would be killed with the Jews. This is not to say that during the war, the Jewish forces did not expel any Arab groups, even villages, who were thought to be involved in the "war of extermination" of the Jews. Many Arabs resisted the call to kill Jews - they and their descendants make up 14% of Israel's population, as full citizens. So if there was an organized effort at "ethnic cleansing", as the antisemites allege, the Jews failed miserably. The "Palestinian refugees" of today are those who expected to return after the Arab victory to find Jewish corpses. The descendants of those Arabs are kept in refugee camps/villages by the United Nations and by other Arab governments as a propaganda tool and as a constant source of soldiers in their long war against Israel. Who should absorb these Arabs, as full citizens, compensate them for their losses, house them, feed them, teach them? Should it be Israel, the intended victim of the massacre? Or should it be their fellow Arabs who, because of their hatred and violence, caused this mess in the first place? Or should this just be a valuable lesson to the world that when you attempt the extermination of another group, be prepared to lose land and property, and expect never to get it back again. Only when such violence is rewarded, by the UN, Jimmy Carter, the USSR, is there a material incentive to try again.
- The Society for Rational Peace




Even if Israel is not the cause of the Arab refugee problem, didn't they do anything to compensate those people?

As a goodwill gesture during the Lausanne negotiations in 1949, Israel offered to take back 100,000 Palestinian refugees prior to any discussion of the refugee question. The Arab states, who had refused even to negotiate face-to-face with the Israelis, turned down the offer because it implicitly recognized Israel's existence.
Despite this, on humanitarian grounds Israel has since the 1950's allowed more than 50,000 refugees to return to Israel under a family reunification program, and between 1967 and 1993 allowed a further 75,000 to return to the West Bank or Gaza. Since the beginning of the Oslo process Israel has allowed another 90,000 Palestinians to gain residence in PA-controlled territory.

Arabs who lost property in Israel are eligible to file for compensation from Israel's Custodian of Absentee Property. As of the end of 1993, a total of 14,692 claims had been filed, claims were settled with respect to more than 200,000 dunums of land, more than 10,000,000 NIS (New Israeli Sheckels) had been paid in compensation, and more than 54,000 dunums of replacement land had been given in compensation. Israel has followed this generous policy despite the fact that not a single penny of compensation has ever been paid to any of the more than 500,000 Jewish refugees from Arab countries, who were forced by the Arab governments to abandon their homes, businesses and savings.

- Alexander Safian, PhD, CAMERA (The Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in America)




What has been the longest refugee situation in recorded human history?

The Diaspora, the Jewish Exile, the Golah. 1,900 years - between 80 and 100 generations.



Another refugee situation also resulted from Israel's independence. It was larger in numbers and in property lost than the Palestinian Arabs, yet we never hear about it, why?

The Real Refugees
Most of the world is ignoring the real catastrophe of the past recent era: the brutal expulsion of some 867,000 Jews from Arab countries, and the seizure, by the Arab governments, of over $13-billion worth of Jewish property and assets.

Algeria
During the war for Algerian independence from France in the 1950s and early 1960s, Algerian nationalists carried out violent attacks on Algerian Jews. After the French left, the Algerian authorities issued a variety of anti- Jewish decrees, including the imposition of heavy taxes on the Jewish community. Nearly all of Algeria's 160,000 Jews fled the country. All but one of Algeria's synagogues were seized and turned into mosques.

Egypt
The ancient Jewish community of Egypt numbered over 90,000 by the 1940s. Riots by Egyptian nationalists in 1945 claimed many Jewish lives, and synagogues and Jewish buildings were burned down. A new wave of discrimination and violence was unleashed in 1948. Over 250 Jews were killed or injured, Jewish shops were looted, and Jewish assets were frozen. Some 35,000 Jews left Egypt by 1950. Gamal Abdel Nasser, who seized power in 1954, arrested thousands of Jews and confiscated their property. Emigration reduced Egyptian Jewry to just 8,000 by 1957.

Iraq
The Jews of Iraq, with roots dating back to ancient Babylonia, numbered about 190,000 in 1947. When Israel was established, Jewish emigration was forbidden, and hundreds of Jews were jailed. Those convicted of "Zionism" --a criminal offense-- were sentenced to internal exile or fines of up to $40,000 each. Tens of thousands of Jews slipped out of the country. Then, in 1950, the government legalized emigration and pressured the Jews to leave; by 1952, only 6,000 remained. Jewish emigrants were permitted to take with them only $140 per adult; all of their remaining assets and property were confiscated by the Iraqi government.

Libya
The 2,000 year-old Jewish community of Libya, which numbered almost 60,000 by the 1940s, was the target of mass anti-Jewish violence in November 1945. In Tripoli alone, 120 Jews were massacred, over 500 wounded, 2,000 were made homeless, and synagogues were torched. There were more pogroms in January 1946, with 75 Jews massacred in Zanzur, and more than 100 murdered in other towns. By the early 1950s, more than 40,000 Libyan Jews had emigrated.

Morocco
In 1948, there were about 350,000 Jews living in Morocco, a community with ancient roots going back to the time of the destruction of the First Temple (586 BCE). In June 1948, pogromists massacred 39 Jews in the town of Djerada and 4 more in Oujda. Over 50,000 Jews fled Morocco in terror. During the 1950s, there was violence against Jews in Oujda, Rabat, and Casablanca. Most of Moroccan Jewry emigrated during the years to follow.

Syria
There were 17,000 Jews in Syria in 1948, a community dating back to biblical times. Anti-Jewish pogroms erupted in the Syrian town of Aleppo in 1947. All of the local synagogues were destroyed, and 7,000 of the town's 10,000 Jews fled in terror. The government then enacted legislation to freeze Jewish bank accounts and confiscate Jewish property. By the 1950s, just 5,000 Jews remained in Syria, subjected to harsh decrees; they were banned from emigrating, selling their property, or working in government offices, and were compelled to carry special cards identifying them as Jews.

- HMAVERIK [at] aol.com


Following is the statistics on the number of Jews in the Arab countries in 1988 as reported by Israeli newspaper "Vesti" (in Russian) 1/4/99.

Algeria less than 100
Egypt less than 100
Iraq 60
Libya less than 100
Morocco 7,000
Syria 100


"This is hardly the place to describe how the Jews of the Arab States were driven out of the countries in which they lived for hundreds of years, then how they were shamefully deported to Israel after their property had been confiscated or taken over at the lowest possible price.
"It is plain that Israel will air this issue in the course of any serious negotiations that might be undertaken one day in regard to the rights on the Palestinians.

"Israel's claims are these: It may perhaps be the case that we Israelis were the cause of the expulsion of some Palestinians, whose number is estimated at 700,000, from their homes during the 1948 War, and afterwards took over their properties. Against this, since 1948, you Arabs have caused the expulsion of just as many Jews from the Arab States, most of whom settled in Israel after their properties had been taken over in one way or another. Actually, therefore, what happened was only a kind of "population and property exchange," and each party must bear the consequences. Israel is absorbing the Jews of Arab States; the Arab States, for their part, must settle the Palestinians in their own midst and solve their problems. There is no doubt that, at the first serious discussion of the Palestinian problem in an international forum, Israel will put these claims forward."

- Sabri Jiryis, a well known Palestinian Arab researcher in the Institute for Palestinian Studies in Beirut, published in Al-Nahar, Beirut, on May 15, 1975


Some of the communities in more depth:
Egypt:

Approximately 75,000 Jews lived in Egypt in 1948, a community whose origins date back to the Babylonian captivity some 2700 years prior. In the preceding decade, Muslim elements, believing that Hitler would be successful in completing the 'Final Solution' in Europe, carried out almost continuous pogroms against Jewish communities, killing and injuring thousands. The Egyptian Company Law of July 1947 introduced prohibitive quotas against employing Jews, precluded them from most areas of employment, and confiscated many Jewish-owned businesses, properties and other assets. Then, in the days after the passage of the Partition Plan, Muslims in Cairo and Alexandria went on a rampage, murdering, looting houses and burning synagogues. In one seven-day period in 1948, an eyewitness counted 150 Jewish bodies littering the streets.

During the War of Independence, Egyptian Jews were barred from travelling abroad. In August 1949, Egypt lifted the ban and 20,000 Jews fled the country, many going to Israel. Conditions for Jews improved somewhat under General Naguib, but when General Abdul Nasser rose to power in Egypt, he ordered mass arrests of Jews and confiscated huge quantities of Jewish property, personal and commercial. Nasser issued deportation orders to thousands of Jews, concurrently confiscating all their property and assets. Most of the deportees were limited to one suitcase apiece. In 1964, Nasser boldly declared, in an interview with a German publication, that Egypt still adhered to the Nazi cause: 'Our sympathy,' he said, 'was with the Germans.' With the outbreak of the 1967 Six-Day War, Jews were arrested en masse and sent to concentration camps, where they were tortured, denied water for days and forced to chant anti-Israel slogans. By 1970, Egypt's Jewish population numbered in the mere hundreds.

Algeria:

Like other Muslim nations, Algeria possesses a long history of anti-Semitism, legal and popular. The colonization of Algeria by the French in 1830, though, liberated the 2500-year-old Jewish community from much of the humiliation and persecution it had sustained under Islamic rule. But the rise of the Nazi Party in Germany augured a reversion to anti-Semitic activities. In 1934, twenty-five Jews were massacred in Constantine. During the subsequent trial by French authorities, evidence revealed the attack was organized by the city's leading Muslim authorities. When the French Vichy government took power in 1940, it immediately stripped Jews of their French citizenry, banned them from schools and declared them 'pariahs.' Only the Allied landing soon thereafter saved the Jews from mass deportation to European death camps. With the fall of the Vichy regime, more than 148,000 Jews enjoyed the full benefits and affluence of French society. A civil war erupted in Algeria, and as it intensified, thousands of Jews fled the country, mostly for France.

Algeria achieved independence in 1962, by which time more than 75,000 Jews had departed. State-sanctioned persecution began the following year with the passage of the 1963 Nationality Code, limiting citizenship to those residents whose father and paternal grandfather were Muslim. The new state confiscated or destroyed Jewish private, commercial and communal property and ordered most of the nation's synagogues converted into mosques. Following a flood of anti-Semitic violence in 1965, the majority of the remaining Jewish community of 65,000 departed. Today, the once vigorous Algerian Jewish community numbers a paltry 300.

Libya:

Today, no Jews are known to live in the north African nation of Libya. Like Egypt and Algeria, massive pogroms decimated the once-thriving Jewish communities in the 1940s. From 1941-1942, great waves of persecution washed over Libya. Jewish property in Benghazi was pillaged and 2,600 were sent into the desert to a forced labor camp, where 500 perished. On November 5, 1945, a horrendous bloodbath ensued in the Libyan capital of Tripoli. According to New York Times reporter Clifton Daniels: 'Babies were beaten to death with iron bars. Old men were hacked to pieces where they fell. Expectant mothers were disembowelled. Whole families were burned alive in their houses.' Several hundred Jews died in the attack.

After the approval of the Partition Plan, another 130 Jews were murdered in anti-Semitic rioting. The following year saw another Tripoli-like massacre. In 1948, Libya's Jewish population was 38,000; by 1951 only 8,000 remained. After the Six-Day War, another pogrom erupted, driving all but 400 from the country. On July 21, 1967 Libyan strongman Colonel Qadhafi nationalized all Jewish property, and soon thereafter, all remaining Jews left the country.

Syria:

The Syrian Jewish community in 1948 dated to the First Century destruction of Jerusalem, approximately 1900 year earlier. Under Islamic rule, Jews were routinely subject to cruel and inhumane treatment, including forced conversions, routine pogroms and severe commercial and personal restrictions. By early 1947, only 13,000 Jews lived in Syria; 20,000 had fled throughout the course of the previous decade, as Nazi zeal permeated the region and made their lives especially difficult. Immediately after Syria gained independence from France in 1945, vitriolic anti-Semitic propaganda was broadcast on television and radio, inciting the Arab masses to violence. In December 1947, one month after the Partition Plan's acceptance, a pogrom erupted in the Syrian town of Aleppo, torching numerous Jewish properties, including synagogues, schools, orphanages and businesses. Eyewitnesses to the violence noted Syrian firemen and police dispatched to the scene actively participated in the rioting.

A flurry of anti-Semitic legislation passed in 1948 restricted, among other things, Jewish travel outside of government-approved ghettos, selling private property, acquiring land or changing their place of residence. A decree in 1949 went a step further, seizing all Jewish bank accounts. Under threats of execution, long prison sentences and torture, 10,000 Jews were able to depart between 1948 and 1962. A report published in 1981 indicated Syrian Jews were subject to "the Mukhabarat, the [Syrian] secret police, [who] conduct a reign of terror and intimidation, including searches without warrant, detention without trial, torture and summary execution." Due mainly to US influence in the context of the Madrid peace process, all but about 800 of the Jewish community have fled, most settling in the United States. Syria has confiscated all Jewish property aside from those who remain.

Yemen:

The Yemenite Jewish community existed in what historian S.D. Goitein described as the "worst aspect" of the Arab mistreatment of the Jew. Jewish life in Yemen, up to the time of Israel's modern evacuation of the community, contained the harshest elements imaginable under dhimmitude status. Jews could not testify in court, and were regularly murdered, limited to employment in the most demeaning of positions and forced to relinquish their property on demand, to name a very few deprivations. An "age-old" custom of stoning Jews, permissible by Muslim law, was still regularly practiced up to the time the Jews fled Yemen. Conditions for the community were exacerbated by Israel's victory over Arab armies in 1948, making the swift extraction of the community a matter of rescue or extinction. Arab mobs swarmed through Tsan'a and other towns, burning, murdering, raping and looting in the city's Jewish quarters. The region's imam - or religious authority - permitted the Jewish community to leave Yemen, provided they forfeit all property to the state. Israel launched Operation Magic Carpet in 1949, and over the course of one year, successfully airlifted some 50,000 Yemenite Jews - almost the entire ancient community - to Israel.

Iraq:

The 135,000 strong Iraqi Jewish community in 1948 traced their origins to the pre-exilic Jewish community of Babylon, 2700 years previous. Anti-Semitic legislation in 1948, declared "Zionism" - a crime accorded to Jews automatically - an offence punishable by a seven-year jail term. Additional legislation barred Jews from government, medicine and education, denied merchants import licenses and closed Jewish banks. The Jewish community faced economic ruin. During Israel's War of Independence, immigration to Israel was declared a capital offense while public Law No. 1, passed in 1950, stripped Jews of their Iraqi nationality. In 1950, Israel launched Operation Ali Baba to extricate the destitute remnant. Iraq, intrigued at the prospect of inheriting large quantities of abandoned Jewish property, allowed the Jews to leave, reassuring emigrants they would receive fair compensation for property and other assets they were forced to abandon. The airlift spirited 123,000 Jews out of the country, with 110,000 choosing to remain in Israel. Despite it's promise, the Iraqi government announced on March 10, 1951 - the day after the deadline for exit registration - that emigrant's property, businesses and bank accounts were forfeit. That same year, Law No. 5 was expanded to include all Jewish holdings in Iraqi banks. By itself, this extension looted $200 million in Jewish assets. By January 1952, as Iraq again closed the doors to Jewish emigration, only 6,000 remained. All remaining Jewish communal property was confiscated in 1958. Today, only 200 Jews remain in Iraq, forced to reside in a Baghdad ghetto.

source: Middle East Digest - November/December 1999




Can we hear about these refugees from a human rights perspective?

"The big issue between 1948 and 1967 was the Arab "refugees" who had left Israel and moved to areas under the control of Arabs. There was great controversy, both within Israel and outside, over whether these Arab refugees had been pushed out by Israel or had left on instructions of Arab leaders with the promise of a glorious return. There is obviously some truth to both positions. Certainly, many Arabs were frightened away by Israeli soldiers; some obviously left after hearing of civilian "massacres". (Whether these accounts were true, false, exaggerated or covered up is not as relevant as whether they were believed by the Arabs who left.)
"As a civil libertarian and human rights activist, I was never much moved by the claims of these refugees. Political solutions often require the movement of people, and such movement is not always voluntary. Making Arab families move - intact - from one Arab village or town to another may constitute a human rights violation. But in the whole spectrum of human rights issues - especially taking into account the events in Europe during the 1940's - it is a fifth-rate issue analogous in many respects to some massive urban renewal or other projects that require large-scale movement of people. For example, the building of the Aswan High Dam in Egypt necessitated the relocation of 100,000 Arabs and the destruction of numerous Arab villages. There were certainly numerous precedents following both world wars, as well as other dislocating events of history - including the establishment of new states. There were so many refugee groups throughout the postwar world, and in so much worse condition, that it is difficult to understand why this particular dislocation assumed such international proportions.

"For example, following the end of World War II, approximately fifteen million ethnic Germans were forcibly expelled from their homes in Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Romania, Yugoslavia, and other Central and Eastern European areas where their families had lived for centuries. Two million died during this forced expulsion. Czechoslovakia alone expelled nearly three million Sudeten Germans, turning them into displaced persons. The United States, Britain, and the international community in general approved these expulsions, as necessary to secure a more lasting peace. [...] President Franklin Roosevelt's assistant Harry Hopkins memorialized his boss's view that although transfer of ethnic Germans "is a hard procedure, it is the only way to maintain peace." [...]

[Dershowitz describes other population transfers in the Middle East, primarily hundreds of thousands of Sephardic Jews who left their ancient communities in Arab lands for Israel.]

"But the Arab leaders did not want peace. They used the refugee issue to encourage continuing belligerency. It became an excuse for not making peace - for not accepting the reality that the ancient land of Israel-Palestine could be populated by two peoples and divided into two nations. It should be recalled that between 1948 and 1967, Israel posed no barrier to the establishment of a Palestinian state on the West Bank and Gaza. There was no Palestinian state because the Arab leaders did not want a Palestinian state alongside a Jewish state. Their collective goal was the total destruction of the Jewish state. The Palestinian refugees would better serve that goal if they were kept in camps as a homeless people than if they were allowed to move out of the camps and establish their own state.

"I believed then, and I believe now, that those who singled out the "plight" of the Arab refugees were more interested in singling out those who had allegedly caused the problem - namely the Jews - than they were in helping those who were its victims. Elevating the Arab refugee problem above the more compelling problem of other groups was a form of indirect international anti-Semitism, acceptable in a world too close to the Holocaust to legitimate direct anti-Jewish bigotry.

[Dershowitz adds here in a footnote:]

"A New York Times story of August 12, 1990, described the plight of 'fifteen million men, women and children' who have been 'internationally recognized as refugees.' Following World War II, the number was between thirty-three and forty-three million, and at the time the Palestinian refugee problem began - with 600,000 to 750,000 refugees - the number throughout the world was between sixteen and eighteen million. Many of the current group are refugees from Islamic nations. Yet the world knows little of their situation. Only the Palestinian refugees have received widespread international support. It is fair to ask why."

[...]

"All of this is not to diminish the suffering of the Palestinian people between 1948 and 1967, but it is to emphasize how much of that suffering was deliberately engineered by the leaders fo those Arab nations that were determined not to settle the Palestinian issue in a manner that permitted the continued existence of the Jewish state."

by Alan Dershowitz in "Chutzpah" [from Roger David Carasso]




Were these two refugee crises a simple 'exchange' of population and therefore 'equal'?

Without Equal.
The exchange of Arab and Jewish populations in and around Israel's War of Independence cannot be equated, as the circumstances perpetuating the refugee movements prove vastly different. The record shows the bulk of Palestinian refugees left their homes on their own accord and at the strong insistence of Arab leadership at the time. None were forcibly deprived of their wealth, and most expected to return to their homes after invading Arab armies crushed the nascent Jewish state.

In contrast, the Jewish residents of Arab countries were, almost without exception, forcefully expelled from their homelands and robbed of their wealth and livelihoods by government-planned, anti-Semitic campaigns meant to eliminate from their midst the "pariah" Jewish presence. This program of ethnic cleansing came hard on the heels of Hitler's plot to make Europe "Judenrein." Using tactics of terror, Arab/Islamic leaders effected a plan to expel their Jewish citizenry, indifferent that its execution would mean the death of thousands, gleeful of the untold wealth it would transfer into their coffers.

- Middle East Digest - December 1999, Canadian Friends of the International Christian Embassy in Jerusalem

I knew "gehrig" didn't have the balls to put his full name and photo up! Ha ha ha!

Typical Zionist! They seem to think they are heroic dropping one-ton bombs on defenseless Palestinians in the middle of the night just to get one Hamas leader, while killing dozens of Palestinian women and children in the process and making hundreds homeless. This is just one example of the cowardly ways of Zionists. The crimes they commit against the defenseless Palestinians, who don't have an army and barely a glass of water to drink, are positively encyclopedic! The list goes on and on. Someday, these war criminals will have their day of reckoning. You've heard it all: home demolitions, stealing more and more of the Palestinians' homeland for a Jews only state (ha ha ha--- they call it a "Jewish democracy"--- a democracy for Jews only--- sorry, that doesn't qualify as a true democracy!) and on and on.

By the way, see for yourself the true story of the massacre at Jenin which Israel has tried to cover up.
You can order "Jenin, Jenin" and "Gaza Strip" at http://www.arabfilm.com. "Democratic" Israel banned "Jenin, Jenin".

Thank God, in MY homeland, AMERICA, we CAN see it. The Zionists don't have complete control yet of America! And they won't ever, now that we are onto them!

Oh, fuck you wendy, you crazed, jew-obsessed bitch. Enough already with your crap. Go strap a bomb to yourself and make like a suicide bomber. But be sure to test it out at home first to make sure it really works.

Wendy, regressing to childhood: "I knew "gehrig" didn't have the balls to put his full name and photo up! Ha ha ha! "

Oh, grow up, Wendy. You're acting like a fifth-grader on a schoolyard.

Let me remind you -- since you seem to have conveniently forgotten -- that you've made it a distinguishing characteristic of yours to post under an avalanche of different names, presumably to fool the Indybay reader into believing that many, many more people agree with you than actually do. And then you want to whine about how _I'm_ not doing full disclosure enough for you, that _I'm_ the one not being up front about who I am?

Grow up!

Here's a challenge for you, Wendy. If you can somehow work up the backbone and moral strength to spend the next two weeks signing every one of your posts with your own name, and marking which posts you have forwarded to the Newswire with "via WC," so that Indybay users can accurately judge for themselves whether or not the peculiar disproportion of you-must-hate-Israel (and "look at the Grand Jewish Kosher Conspiracy") posts here compared to every other IMC (the increasingly nonfunctional cesspool of post-coup IMC-Jerusalem excepted) is largely because of one obsessive personality and her one obsession, instead of weasling out by pulling the sock puppet shit you've pulled all along, _then_ you will finally be in a respectable enough position to ask for my name and photo and have a right to expect it.

It's not fatal, Wendy. I've signed every one of my IMC posts and it hasn't killed me. Is there some congenital reason you can't?

Until then, let me remind you that you, not I, are the one who has been playing identity games from the start. And that severely limits your ability to express outrage at _my_ only signing _every single post I'ver ever made to an IMC_ with _half_ of my own name.

@%<

The only reason anyone becomes a suicide-bomber is because they are completely desperate--- ie. as in having your homeland ripped away from you, as in being completely dehumanized and humiliated by checkpoints, curfews, being called "lice" and "cancer" opening by politicians in power who talk about transferring you to making way for a Jews-only state, as in the encyclopedic laundry list of trespasses against you and your family--- as the Palestinians have had to and continue to endure due to Zionist Jews.

I, on the other hand, live in AMERICA, MY HOMELAND, where we have equal rights for all regardless of religion, race or sex, and we have laws against discrimination.

Israel has NO constitution. Israel is a democracy for JEWS ONLY! That does NOT count as a true democracy. 92% of the land in Israel is for Jews only. And so on and so forth.

America does not "worry" about retaining a Christian character like Israel obsesses about keeping a "Jewish character" for Israel, a "Jewish state". We worry about maintaining a MORAL character.

We have a secular government whereby secular simply means keeping religion separate from state (yet most of us believe in God, we just keep it separate from government), however the Zionists are implementing the Zionist agenda in America's foreign policies among other things. Secular to Jews means atheist, non-belief in God.

Everyone knows by now that Judaism is a quasi-religion, whereby it's more of an ethnocentric tribe-- belief in GOD is not necessary to be Jewish. Fortunately, it is NOT necessary to be a Zionist to be Jewish. However basically all Zionists are Jewish.

Some atheists may indeed have morals, but if one believes in God, truly believes in God, as I do, one believes also in following the Ten Commandments, which obviously Zionists do not, as they steal the Palestinians' land, kill them in the process, lie about their motives and more, and covet still more of their neighbors' property.

Sorry, Zionists, you're just beginning to hear criticisms of Israel and Zionism here in America. It's just the beginning of the tide, it's turning against Zionsim. Better abandon Zionism now. America will abandon it at any rate--- Zionism is on it's way to being completely marginalized, just like any fringe lunatic racist group.

Actually, let me ask that question more directly. Please answer the following question.

"I, Wendy Campbell, post to Indybay under a vast and ever-changing cast list of nyms, sock puppets, and invisible rabbits (of the"Donnie Darko" kind, not the "Harvey" kind) because:

a) I am in the middle of a deep existential identity crisis, and like Roquentin in the last pages of Sartre's _Nausee_, I don't know who I am;

b) I am a manifest koo-oo-ook, and there is a long tradition of sock-puppetry among Internet koo-oo-ooks, so it's sorta a guild requirement;

c) Like a lone extra in a low-budget movie, I am trying awfully hard to look like a crowd scene;

d) the very fact that I hate Israel so much means that the normal rules of rhetorical responsiblity have been magically waived in my case by a wave of the Good Rhetoric Fairy's spangly wand;

e) It just never occured to me what a dingbat it makes me look like."

@%<

wimpy wimpy wimpy

Ladies and gentlemen of the Dismantle Israel movement, meet the real Wendy Campbell.

Aren't you glad she's on your side?

Thanks for your help, Wendy. Couldn't have done it without you.

@%<

The poster known as "Ever notice how nasty Zionists are" (who is probably Wendy the anti-semite) called Judaism a "quasi-religion"

But that's ok here with the shitheads who run this gutter

Some Zionist loser obviously posted the crap right above at 01:04 AM using my usual handle.

The truth condemns them.

You, your lies and unfair singling out of the state of israel while ignoring far worse evil that other people do that directly impacts how israel has to defend itself is what condems us.

As Morris Abram, the late chairman of United Nations Watch, once observed, the UN has held only two special emergency sessions since 1982. No session was ever convened to condemn China's occupation of Tibet, Syria's occupation of Lebanon, the Indonesian occupation of East Timor, or the slaughters in Rwanda, the disappearances in Zaire, or any other global horror. Only Israel was so targeted - twice.


At the UN's urging, only one member state has ever been brought before the Geneva Convention. Not Cambodia for its genocide, Russia for its brutal repression of Chechnya or Sudan for its atrocities. Again, it was Israel.


The UN General Assembly, driven by a coalition of Arab, Muslim and other dictatorships, has passed more resolutions condemning Israel than any other nation on Earth. But it has never censured Israel's assailants for their three wars of aggression in 1948, 1967 and 1973.


The UN Commission on Human Rights (UNCHR) passes at least five resolutions a year condemning Israel (last year it was seven) and spends about 30% of its time solely on the Jewish state. In contrast, as Beichman notes, each of the following countries or regions has been the subject of one resolution - Iraq, Iran, Russia/Chechnya, Afghanistan, Burundi, Congo, Cuba, Myanmar, Sierra Leone, Southeast Europe and Sudan. Manuel Prutschi of the Canadian Jewish Congress notes this double standard is compounded by the fact the UNCHR devotes one agenda item to focusing solely on Israel. All other nations are lumped together under a separate item.


Despite this, Israel, the only Mideast democracy, is not allowed to join the UNCHR, or the Security Council, while many of the world's worst dictatorships - Syria, Libya, Sudan, Saudi Arabia - can and do. As David Goldberg of the Canada-Israel Committee explains, membership on major UN bodies is conditional upon belonging to one of the UN's five regional groups. Israel is the only UN member excluded from this system because it has been prevented from joining its regional group - Asia - by an ongoing Arab boycott. Thus, it cannot even get a delegate appointed to the 53-nation UNCHR to defend itself from unfair attacks. Due to efforts by the U.S. and, to its credit, Canada, Israel now has partial membership in the "Western European and Others Group."


Israel, Beichman notes, is the only country to which the UNCHR assigns a special "rapporteur" to investigate human rights "violations." In other nations, rapporteurs investigate "situations." The reports by Israel's rapporteur are always one-sided because his mandate prohibits investigating Palestinian actions in addition to Israel's, even if they occur in the same area. The Israeli rapporteur's mandate is the only one not periodically reviewed by the UNCHR.


Each year on Nov. 29, the UN holds a United Nations Day of International Solidarity with the Palestinian People. The day is always a vicious diatribe against Israel. There is no UN Day of International Solidarity With the Victims of Palestinian Terrorism. No other "people" on Earth, no matter how brutally oppressed, receive a similar day of UN solidarity.


While the anti-Semitic ravings aimed at Jews at the infamous UN conference ostensibly against racism held in Durban, South Africa in 2001 are well-known, Israel is also the only UN state to have been subjected to two blood libels. In 1991, the Syrian delegate to the UNCHR accused Israel of murdering Christian children to use their blood to make matzo, an ancient anti-Semitic canard. In 1997, the Palestinian delegate accused Israel of injecting 300 Palestinian children with HIV-infected blood. Neither of these lies was immediately denounced by the UN. From 1975-91, in what even UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan has called a "low point" in its history, a General Assembly resolution equating Zionism with racism stayed on the books until it was finally repealed due to a campaign by the U.S. By contrast, in 1997, the mere mention of an allegedly blasphemous reference to Islam by a UN expert from an academic source, was instantly rebuffed by the UNCHR and deleted from the record.

No fair-minded person argues Israel should be above scrutiny by the UN. No fair-minded person dismisses the suffering of the Palestinians in the Disputed Territories and the human rights abuses committed by Israel, albeit in the context of responding to the constant threat of terrorism.

But to pretend, as the UN does, year after year, that Israel is the world's worst human rights violator, is not only sheer nonsense, it is anti-Semitism. And it is the UN's stock in trade.

get out of denial, get off your cloud, get rid of your blind spot! Zio-nazi!

Israel is an appalling civil and human rights abuser, and runs a brutal, overtly racist, supremacist apartheid regime in the Occupied Territories - land that should decades ago have been ceded to the Palestinian people for the state promised them alongside Israel since its formation. It continues even as we speak to steal Palestinian land, and engage in slow ethnic cleansing by means of house demolitions and farm and livelihood destruction, and construction of Jewish-only settlements and roads. These are populated by racist, holy-book thumping religious fundamentalists, who think that God is their real estate agent.

Israel reacted with the most extreme violence and repression to the first Intifada, a civil rebellion and movement for Palestinian rights which used less violence and much more non-violent resistance than the current one. Israel's vicious response to the Palestinians' just demands insured that all-out violence would be employed in the second Intifada.

The violence, oppression and degradation of the occupation itself, not to mention the at least four times as many Palestinians slaughtered, is the reason for feelings of solidarity with the Palestinians rather than the Israelis – no matter how bloody the violence on either side, people tend to sympathize more with the ones being ground under a jackboot.

I wanted to make all of the above perfectly clear before answering your complaint; I will not mince words, or listen to you do so, about what exactly it is that Israel is doing. Don't like it? Suck it up, grow some balls, and face it, and stop whining about the UN's "unfair" targeting of Israel. Instead get to work and do something to help change what Israel is doing, the real source of legitimate and wholly justified international protestation. And any protestation anywhere. If the world were to suddenly turn all its attention and condemnation to Rwanda, would that make the perpetrators of the atrocities there one iota less guilty or less deserving of the negative attention? Complaints about Israel’s “security” are no excuse; Israel’s security does not morally outweigh the Palestinians right to a life of dignity, free from crushing oppression, or, for that matter, THEIR right to security. Any half sentient observer can see that Israel’s occupation and oppression of another people is undermining, rather than reinforcing, their security. Finally, it is hard to take seriously complaints about security when coming from the world’s fourth most militarily powerful state (“poor little Israel”? Pul-eeze.), and the only regional nuclear power. Which in addition has an almost symbiotic relationship with the worlds MOST powerful state. Again, the best thing it could do to keep it’s individual citizens safe would be to do the right thing, and thereby pull the necessary support
"rug" out from any Palestinian guerrillas unwilling to respond by also doing the right thing. Though I daresay, regardless of the stated aims of certain groups to destroy Israel, they would be more than happy to ceasefire if Israel were to actually show with actions, not just words, that this time, at last, it meant it.

No, Israel's regime in the Occupied Territories is not the worst in the world (only one of the worst). But, unlike the other human rights abusers in your list, Israel purports to be a westernized democracy. The contrast is particularly offensive to other westernized democracies (who, in at least some part, probably feel guilty about their own histories of colonization and occupation, and don’t like being slapped in the face with a particularly ugly, 20th century reminder), and the claim itself is irritating to third world dictatorships, who see Israel engaging in as terrible or worse human rights violations as their own. Also, the Middle East is much more visible than other regions, the world is more focused on it and the media is more focused on it, because of oil, the interest the US has in it, and so on. Which of course makes people more continuously and painfully aware of what is going on there, and more likely to get caught up emotionally in it and react to it. Not fair, you say? Well maybe not, but there you have it. Yet another factor is the fawning patronization of the world’s lone superpower, which arouses widespread anger, resentment and envy. Anti-semitism? I don't think so. I'm sure, however, that many people can't help but notice the terrible irony, given the Jewish people’s recent history. It reminds one eerily of that cycle of abuse thing that psychologists talk about.

Oh, here's an example for you of one of many, many fine Jewish American activists of guts, integrity and unwavering commitment to social justice, a man who refuses to compromise his own principles: Josh Ruebner:
http://www.counterpunch.org/ruebner1210.html

Uh, Israel wouldn't be doing anything to anyone if people didn't want israel dead.

Israel offered to end the "occupation" and be nice enough to give control of the land to the palestinians. Arab countrie weren't nice enough to do that. In 1948 to 1967 jordan and egypt controlled the west bank and gaza, and did they set up a palestinian state? NO! But israel offered to give arafat almost everthing he wanted 2.5 years ago, and instead the stupid palestinians began "intifada 2" and started attacking israel when they didn't need to. Intifada 2 hasn't helped them at all.

Arafat knows he shoudl have taken the offer 2.5 years ago, or at least negotiated slightly further, instead of being a stupid idiot and urging his dumbass people to attack israel, they did so knowing that israel could hit back harder, and then they could cry to the world media how unfair it all is.

If you were arafat (a sick disgusting terrorist who used to intentionally kill innocent people) and you really cared about the palestinians, you would have negotiated 2.5 years ago and come to an agreement, even if it wasn't the "perfect" agreement, as long it it was close, it woudl have been a great start.

Palestinians rejected the peace offer and began attacking, so don't fault israel for attacking back harder.

Why should israel pull out fully if hamas and other organizations will just keep on attacking them anyway?

Since when do countries unoccupy a country when themost powerful people in that country have made it clear they're going to keep right on attacking you?

please fix this article because most of the posts are very wide for most screens and it makes it time-consuming to try to read them to have to scroll back and forth.

thanks in advance!

I got an e-mail from a friend who said they saw that someone was pretending to be me and saying very anti-semitic things that my friends and even acquaintances know I just would never say.

He told me I should e-mail to the editor to ask him to delete his imposter postings that could potentially damage my reputation, which I, of course want to protect.

Fortunately, it looks like people already informed the editor of what was going on because I don't see the offending posts.

I will now e-mail the editor to request that the devious imposter's IP be banned from posting again at Indymedia, because it is no laughing matter to impersonate someone else saying racist remarks! That is on libel and slander, and should be outlawed.

I see you haven't read "Origin of the Palestine-Israel Conflict" yet at http://www.cactus48.com. That will help you to get the real picture and understand what's happening.

Now that most of the psycho Zionists' posts have been removed, I hope that sincere people who do not try to impersonate or incriminate others, will read all these posts, and especially check out http://www.cactus48.com.

Now, Wendy, I notice that you _still_ find yourself unable to answer the simple yes-or-no question: in another post you implied you believed that Ashkenazi Jews aren't actually descendants of the Israelites, and are instead "Japhethites."

Is this what you meant to say? If it isn't, you should have no trouble saying "no." But the way you're so obviously avoiding this question has gotten quite interesting in its own right.

@%<

I wonder if Wendy doesn't respond to gehrig because:

A. He's a wimp of the first degree.
B. She doesn't know what he's talking about and really doesn't care because it's irrelevant to the topic.
C. She wants to keep him in suspense.
D. All of the above.

who knows the motives of these anti-semitic spammer losers! Why do they shave their heads, that's what I wonder??

They're anti-zionists. They oppose a Jewish homeland. So, they feel Jews should just live like shit in nations that mistreat them, or nations across europe and the middle east that "tolerate" them provided they keep quiet and don't "flaunt" their Jewishness. That's what the anti-zionists want. They don't care about treatment of Jews in Russia, eastern europe or the middle east, but if jews in israel defend themselves, these people will take it to the streets protesting the evils of the zionists for trying to be safe.

all forms of bigotry are equal.

The term anti-semitism was appropriated to make one form of racism appear to be worse than others - IT IS NOT.


Anti-Zionism is NOT anti-semitism.

Zionism is NOT a person.

Zionism is NOT a religion

Zionism is NOT a nation.

Zionism is NOT a race or 'nation' of people.



Zionism is a eugenically motivated cult - der Judenstaat - for the chosen warriors of deity.



After rescuing thousands of Jews from concentration camps, I was murdered by members of this cult. The person who ordered my assassination went on to become the Prime Minister of Israel.

Murderers are frequently elected to lead der Judenstaat.





Jared Israel, incidentally, refuses to evaluate or publish the September 11 FACTS concerning Dominik Otto Suter and his Urban Moving Systems Mossad front.



I wonder why?

Who is your character attack directed at, Robert?

Why would I celebrate the death of ANY human, "Robert"?

Can you name your latest logical fallacy?
(see anti-Nazi Nizkor)
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/


If you are so concerened about the welfare of the Jewish people in Israel during an unjustified terrorist assault on Iraq by the U.S., then why aren't you trying to convince Israelis - including the war criminal Prime Minister - to stop encouraging such actions?

Who composed the text of PNAC?

I see some have STILL not done their homework! Required reading is "Origin of the Palestine-Israel Conflict" by the Jews for Justice in the Middle East at http://www.cactus48.com. Apparently some people prefer to stick their heads in the sand, and believe all the pro-Israel propaganda put forth by the mainly Zionist-run media and Zionist-bought-out politicians. Maybe it's time you started reading British papers like the Independent or the Guardian or even the Israeli paper like the Ha'aretz, all available on-line, to see what's really happening in the world. Americans are woefully misinformed, in case you haven't figured that out yet.

http://www.serbia.sr.gov.yu/cms/view.php?id=1011

Look! Even Serbia has a Constitution now, and as you will see, Serbia does NOT define itself by an ethnic group (which is what Jews are, even more than a religion since many Jews do NOT believe in God). Even Serbia, which WAS indeed committing ethnic cleansing just like Israel is doing now to the Palestinian people, now has a Constitution AND defines itself by a democracy for ALL its citizens regardless of ethnicity, religion, race or sex.

Isn't it so disgusting and revolting to see the ad campaigns that Israel puts out (that OUR US tax dollars pays for by the way) that LIES about how "Israel is the only "democracy" in the Middle East" --- they FORGET to tell you that Israel is a "democracy" for JEWS-ONLY, and that 92% is for use by JEWS ONLY and that Israel is stealing more of the Palestinians land every day for JEWS ONLY illegal settlements while they kill, maim, humiliate, starve and persecute the Palestinian people EVERY SINGLE DAY THAT GOES BY. All this is being done with our Zionist-bought-out governments blessing and with billions of OUR tax dollars! E-mail President Bush every single say to tell him to stop giving our tax dollars to racist, anti-democratic, apartheid Israel! president [at] whitehouse.gov and don't forget to check out http://www.boycottisraeligoods.org for more ways to STOP the atrocities and ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians by Zionist Israel!

Israel is not a democracy for Jews only. Israel is a democracy for all of its citizens. Israeli Jews, israeli muslims, israeli christians, and all israeli citizens have equal voting rights, and any israeli citizen of any race, color or creed can run for office.

Those are the facts. I'm sorry if you want to hurl dishonest propaganda around. Debate all you want, but you can't escape the facts.

Israel does give an advantage to jews as far as immigration rights. How can you look at the last 200 years of history and see how jews have been treated in countries around the world and honestly be outraged that after everything that's happened, ONE country exists that allows jews to immigrate? Why does that anger you so much? THere is horrible crime committed by countries across africa, across the middle east, bad things happen in hoards of places, and you act like it's a crime that israel makes it easier for jews to become citizens than non-jews. What is your obsession with this? Why are you not outraged that in Saudia Arabia it's illegal to be jewish and a citizen? Why are you not outraged that your tax dollars that go to egypt help the government execute people for being gay? Why do you single israel out like this? OH NO, israel gives jews an immigration benefit, how horrible! What a terrible crime! So when jews living in russia get horribly discriminated against for being jewish and they get sick of it and want to move, israel will let them immigrate there. How horrible!

As for the "occupation," tell palestinians to call off their intifada and act peaceful, and to end terrorist attacks. That would put full pressure on israel to respond in kind.

Are you ignorant or are you just lying?

Israel is not a true democracy as it is a democracy for Jews only. 92% of the land is for use by Jews only. There are Jews only bypass roads going to Jews only settlement built on illegally confiscated Palestinian land. No one can run for office if they want to challenge the "Jewish character" of Israel, not even if they want a true secular, multi-cultural democracy with completely equal rights for all regardless of religion, ethnicity, race or sex, like we have here in the US (can you imagine if no one could run for office if they wanted to challenge the "Christian white character" of the US? How racist can you get?) Israel has NO constitution. Only Jews and Druze are allowed to join the military, thereby those who can't join the military lose out on many financial benefits. Israel has been keeping about 3 million Palestinians under a brutal occupation in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank-- without equal rights as citizens nor granting them their own sovereign state with continuous borders-- rather Israel has been severely persecuting and ethnically cleansing the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip by either killing them or making life so miserable for them that they flee-- all so racist Zionists can have a "Greater Israel" for Jews only, a Jewish supremacist state. Not acceptable in today's civilized democratic society. Very passe, very regressive and very racist. Why, Israel is even now building an apartheid wall to top everything off.

For more info, http://www.cactus48.com

Why are we giving Israel so much in foreign aid?? Could it be that we too have been controlled by the Zionist pigs??? Maybe the true threat is not Iraq, but it's actually Israel?? Sharon has already told his own foreign minister Shimon Peres "don't worry about American pressure, we control America"!!! Is it too late already??? --------By the way, just thought of something...something for everyone here to think about. Whether you support or not the invasion of Iraq, just think about it a bit. Nobody except the British support the invasion. How about Israel????!!!?!?! Haven't really heard their position. They probably support it, but hell, where the **** are they???? Anyway, probably enough for now.......Peace ,,\/

There have been plenty of posts about the fact that Israel and the Zionists are 100% for the war in Iraq. See the homepage of Indymedia, the story on which countries support the war on Iraq. Israel is the ONLY country in the Middle East that supports a US war on Iraq. It's no secret. It's even in the mainstream media. It's obvious to many that the war on Iraq is more about Israel's "best interests" than even oil. It's at least 50-50 anyway.

Of course its in Israel's best interest. They're getting everything for nothing. What I was wondering is will they also do the fighting or are they just urging and supporting for the cause??? Haven't heard anything about them getting troops to help.

It's obvious to many that the war on Iraq is more about Israel's "best interests" than even oil.
---------------

It's not obvious to me. Please enlighten me. (Saddam has threatened to nuke not only Israel, but also the oil fields of Saudi Arabia and Kuwait.)

What I was wondering is will they also do the fighting or are they just urging and supporting for the cause??? Haven't heard anything about them getting troops to help.
-------------

Are you really that clueless to how things work? Of course Israel won't send troops or offer any overt support. Just like the Gulf War I, they will sit there politely while Saddam launches scuds at them. Why would Saddam do this? Same reason as last time -- to try to bring them in, and create an Arab v Israel battle -- to destabilize the Arab states allied with the US. This is why the US will secure the likely scud sites in western Iraq as soon as the war begins (if you have been paying attention, you would have learned that US special forces are already doing recon missions in the area) -- to decrease the chance that Saddam can suck Israel into the war.

Educate yourself.

Alright....alright......newt. All valid points...good observation. Thanks for the enlightenment.....but what a bunch of evil f**ks. Sitting there looking innocent hiding behind us.......when all the while they've been using us to get rid of one of their enemies. Evil, evil, evil......conniving...deceitful. Damn, they are good..... That why!!!! Our own government might be next... We might be the next Israel....

I'm really getting sick of this. The person who keeps plugging "cactus48" is LYING.

Again, these are the facts:

FACT: Every Israeli citizen can vote. It doesn't matter what their religion is, every single one can vote.

FACT: Every Israeli citizen can run for elected office. It doesn't matter what their religion is, every single citizen can run.

FACT: In Saudia Arabia, Jordan, etc., it's legal to discriminate or remove citizenship of anyone who is jewish. Whereas in israel almost 20% of israelis are muslims who work, vote, and do whatever.

As for "Palestinians" outside of Israel who are not Israeli citizens, their leaders have spent decades trying to destroy israel. When they finally stop, and when they put a stop to the lunatic popular palestinians organizations like hamas, then israel can remove troops from their towns.

The matriachal descendants of Jacob

The Religion

The Genetic Convert

The Nation of People that will never be destroyed (unlike all the other nations)

The Zionist

In Israel, all citizens can vote.

In Saudia Arabia, citizens don't vote.

In Israel, citizens can practice any religion.

In Saudia Arabia, citizens can't be Jews.

In Israel, women hold any position. A former prime minister of Israel was a woman, amazing!

In Saudia Arabia, women are not even allowed to drive a car or work "public" jobs where they might be seen doing a "man's work."

If your only concern is human rights, why are you putting your attention on Israel instead of Saudia Arabia? There is no comparison between the two lifestyles.

As for the "occupation," it will end as soon as (1) the intifada is called off and terrorists stop attacking israel, and/or (2) some sort of responsible palestinian leadership exists that can control hamas and the other lunatic terrorist groups that enjoy enormous populatity among the "palestinians."

"In Israel, all citizens can vote."
--- Yes, but what good is that really, when no candidate is allowed to vote on anything other than a platform that supports the racist Zionist ideology that Israel is a "Jewish state" with a "Jewish character". In America, we don't have any restriction on a platform that America must be a "white Christian state" with a "white Christian character"-- no, we have a TRUE democracy that is TRULY secular. All "secular" means in Israel is that "God" is not mentioned. However we all know now that believing in God and being Jewish are not necessarily one and the same. In fact over 50% of Jews are atheists and agnostics, and not religious.

"In Saudia Arabia, citizens don't vote."
--- Saudi Arabia doesn't keep proclaiming to the world that they are "the only democracy in the Middle East" like Israel does. Saudi Arabia doesn't receive over 40% of our US foreign aid, over $4 billion of our US tax dollars a year, to support Israel's ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian people! Saudi Arabia is not conducting an ethnic cleansing campaign like Israel is doing and has been doing since 1948!


"In Israel, citizens can practice any religion."
--- Unless you are Jewish, even as an Israeli citizen you will not enjoy completely equal rights. 92% of the land inside Israel is for use by Jews ONLY. Jews are not allowed to marry non-Jews. Christians are not allowed to teach Christianity in Israel. There are bypass roads for Jews ONLY that go to Jews ONLY settlements on illegally confiscated Palestinian lands.

"In Saudia Arabia, citizens can't be Jews."
--- Again, Saudi Arabia does not PRETEND the be "the only democracy in the Middle East" as Israel's proganda proclaims. Zionists like yourself lie about this precisely to maintain that illusion so that Americans won't protest their tax dollars going to support the racist, anti-democratic, apartheid country of Israel.

"In Israel, women hold any position. A former prime minister of Israel was a woman, amazing! "
--- Yeah, and she was a real witch. Big deal. It still doesn't make Israel a TRUE democracy. In fact, Golda Meir used to constantly lie about Israel, often repeating the lie that "Israel was a land without people for a people without land".

"In Saudia Arabia, women are not even allowed to drive a car or work "public" jobs where they might be seen doing a "man's work." "
--- Again, Saudi Arabia doesn't LIE about being a democracy like Israel does. Israel does not even have a constitution!

"If your only concern is human rights, why are you putting your attention on Israel instead of Saudia Arabia? There is no comparison between the two lifestyles. "
--- See the above re: the massive US foreign aid to Israel and how Israel lies about being a democracy but Saudi Arabia does not. And how Israel is and has been committing ethnic cleansing and slow genocide of the Palestinian people.

"As for the "occupation," it will end as soon as (1) the intifada is called off and terrorists stop attacking israel, and/or (2) some sort of responsible palestinian leadership exists that can control hamas and the other lunatic terrorist groups that enjoy enormous populatity among the "palestinians.""
--- As for the "terrorists" or more accurately the Palestinian freedom fighters and resistance to Zionist domination known as the "Intifada"--- this will end when the Israeli state-sponsored terrorism ends, the occupation ends, and the racist ideology of Zionism is ended like Nazism was, and all the lunatic terrorist war criminals in the Likud party such as Sharon and his posse that enjoy enormous popularity with right-wing Zionist racist Jews are replaced with progressive Jewish leaders who recognize the humanity in all people and desire to live by The Golden Rule and the Ten Commendments, and seek a true democracy with equal rights for all including all the Palestinian refugees who have the right to return to their ancestral homeland according to UN Resolutions, International Law and world opinion.

"...Saudi Arabia doesn't receive over 40% of our US foreign aid, over $4 billion of our US tax dollars a year..."

-------------

Egypt also receives billions. Why? Because the US has lived up to its promise when Israel and Egypt signed the Camp David agreement.

True, the US also provides more military aid to Israel. Recall that we used to sell weapons to Egypt and not Israel (the French did) until Egypt double-crossed us and began negotiating weapons deals with the Soviets. Only then did the US begin to support the Israeli military in its current form.

History is enlightening.

The US tax dollars our government gives Egypt is HUSH money to keep them quiet about the ethnic cleansing that Israel is doing to the Palestinians. This is money we could save too for Americans if only our government would STOP funding the ethnic cleansing and slow genocide campaign of racist, anti-democratic, apartheid Israel!
Israel is pushing for the war on Iraq too!

Why is Israel pushing for war in Iraq??

In order for the Arab states (and "street") to stay in line during/after the Iraq war, there will have to be progress made on the Palestinian issue. Israel wants this? Not for a few years now.

The US will force Israel to behave soon -- BECAUSE of the war in Iraq. The nation-building phase will be very sensitive and progress will need to be seen on the Palestinian issue.

Please tell me why Israel would want to be forced to the bargaining table??

Once the Iraq situation is off of the front page, the rest of the world will once again focus on the Israel-Palestine question. Why would Israel want this??

Saudi Arabia doesn't get 4 to 14 billion dollars of our taxes every year like Israel does.

In fact, the reason the US supports the Saudi royalty is because they transfer the wealth of their nation to the US. In return, they get US protection. US policy is set up to protect the royals from their own people (as opposed to an external threat). It's a symbiotic relationship. In the 80's, Saudi Arabia had a couple hundred billion dollar surplus. Now they are a debtor nation after paying for the first Gulf war.

Israel is NOT a TRUE Democracy
by Don't lie! Friday February 28, 2003 at 11:28 AM

"In Israel, all citizens can vote."
--- Yes, but what good is that really, when no candidate is allowed to vote on anything other than a platform that supports the racist Zionist ideology that Israel is a "Jewish state" with a "Jewish character".

***Wrong. There is actually are Muslim political parties within the Israel government. Here’s a list of three and what they favor.
HADASH
* Israel must withdraw to its pre-1967 border
* Create a Palestinian State in West Bank and Gaza

MOLEDET
* Transfer of Arabs from West Bank
* Annexation of the territories
* Rejection of Oslo Accords
* PLO is a terrorist organisation

ARAB DEMOCRATIC PARTY
* Supports the Oslo Accords.
* Calls for the creation of a Palestinian State
* Calls for equality for all of Israel's citizens, Jewish and
Arab.
* Jerusalem - Capital of Palestine and Israel.



"In Saudia Arabia, citizens don't vote."
--- Saudi Arabia doesn't keep proclaiming to the world that they are "the only democracy in the Middle East" like Israel does. Saudi Arabia doesn't receive over 40% of our US foreign aid, over $4 billion of our US tax dollars a year, to support Israel's ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian people! Saudi Arabia is not conducting an ethnic cleansing campaign like Israel is doing and has been doing since 1948!

***See Universal Statement.

"In Israel, citizens can practice any religion."
--- Unless you are Jewish, even as an Israeli citizen you will not enjoy completely equal rights. 92% of the land inside Israel is for use by Jews ONLY. Jews are not allowed to marry non-Jews. Christians are not allowed to teach Christianity in Israel. There are bypass roads for Jews ONLY that go to Jews ONLY settlements on illegally confiscated Palestinian lands.

***92% of Israeli’s ARE jewish. Road’s are restricted to ISRAELI’S, not Jews. Jews and marriage is not state mandated. And finally, Christians can teach in Israel. Here’s a link that more than proves it.

***http://www.lpj.org/Nonviolence/Patriarch/Nazaretheng.htm

"In Saudia Arabia, citizens can't be Jews."
--- Again, Saudi Arabia does not PRETEND the be "the only democracy in the Middle East" as Israel's proganda proclaims. Zionists like yourself lie about this precisely to maintain that illusion so that Americans won't protest their tax dollars going to support the racist, anti-democratic, apartheid country of Israel.

***See the Universal comment at the bottom.

"In Israel, women hold any position. A former prime minister of Israel was a woman, amazing! "
--- Yeah, and she was a real witch. Big deal. It still doesn't make Israel a TRUE democracy. In fact, Golda Meir used to constantly lie about Israel, often repeating the lie that "Israel was a land without people for a people without land".

***See the Universal comment at the bottom.
"In Saudia Arabia, women are not even allowed to drive a car or work "public" jobs where they might be seen doing a "man's work." "
--- Again, Saudi Arabia doesn't LIE about being a democracy like Israel does. Israel does not even have a constitution!

***Constitution does not equal a democracy.

"If your only concern is human rights, why are you putting your attention on Israel instead of Saudia Arabia? There is no comparison between the two lifestyles. "
--- See the above re: the massive US foreign aid to Israel and how Israel lies about being a democracy but Saudi Arabia does not. And how Israel is and has been committing ethnic cleansing and slow genocide of the Palestinian people.

***Israel has been proven a democracy by my above statements. Just because you don’t like how they vote does not make them any less a democracy.

***UNIVERSAL STATEMENT***
Israel is a key US ally in the region. By giving them that much money, we can dictate whether or not to allow them to go hog wild and start destroying every arab country around them…which you yourself have stated that they have the power to do.

FACT: The area known as the Gaza Strip was part of JORDAN before the 1967 war. That means, that everyone who lived there before 1967…which is AFTER 1948….was a Jordanian.

What does that make those of the Gaza Strip? Occupied Jordanians.

Fact: The area known as the West Bank was part of EGYPT before the 1967 war. That means, that everyone who lived there before 1967…which is AFTER 1948….was an EGYPTIAN.

What does that make those of the Gaza Strip? Occupied EGYPTIANS.

Fact: Both Egypt and Jordan…along with Syria, Lebanon, and Iraq…declared war on Israel. Israel won and took the areas that the attacks were staged from.

Fact: The Sinai…which holds a good deal of oil….was also taken by Israel. It was given back under an agreement to be at peace and for Egypt to recognize Israel as a Nation.

Fact: Jordan has since become peaceful with Israel, but they don’t want the Palestinians back. The PLO/PLA/PA has already once tried to take over Jordan….they don’t want to give them a second chance.

"As for the "occupation," it will end as soon as (1) the intifada is called off and terrorists stop attacking israel, and/or (2) some sort of responsible palestinian leadership exists that can control hamas and the other lunatic terrorist groups that enjoy enormous populatity among the "palestinians.""
--- As for the "terrorists" or more accurately the Palestinian freedom fighters and resistance to Zionist domination known as the "Intifada"--- this will end when the Israeli state-sponsored terrorism ends, the occupation ends, and the racist ideology of Zionism is ended like Nazism was, and all the lunatic terrorist war criminals in the Likud party such as Sharon and his posse that enjoy enormous popularity with right-wing Zionist racist Jews are replaced with progressive Jewish leaders who recognize the humanity in all people and desire to live by The Golden Rule and the Ten Commendments, and seek a true democracy with equal rights for all including all the Palestinian refugees who have the right to return to their ancestral homeland according to UN Resolutions, International Law and world opinion.


***Why don’t the Palestinians….who were kicked out of Jordan for trying to over throw the government AND out of Lebanon for THE EXACT SAME THING…simply stop the bombings and prove to the rest of the world that they are the better man, so to speak? Frankly, I wouldn’t want a bunch of half-cocked lunatics sitting next door to me. If they can control themselves, then Israel, the US, and the UN has no choice but to give them what they ask.

Next, the United States is not a true Democracy, either. It's a representative REPUBLIC. There's a difference. Get a book.

And lastly, for the IRAQI INVASION debate: ten...that's "10"...European countries support the US position, with another 30 or so around the globe. Less have come out as formally against the invasion and the rest haven't chimed in on it one way or the other.

The US is not alone on this.

Truth hurts, don't it?

The fact is, from 1948 to 1967 arabs could have formed a state for the Palestinians (or Palestinians could have formed a state for themselves), but they just attacked Israel.

Then, lets review Palestinian "leadership"
1960's - Palestinian leadership declared death on israel, refused to agree to stop attacking israel, refused to even consider peace.
Naturally, Israel is not going to unoccupy land while that's going on.

1970's - Same as above. Israel can't unoccupy while palestinian leaders are still calling for israel's death.

1980's - same as above. Israel still can't unoccupy while palestinian leaders are still calling for israel's death.

1990's - part of the 1990's it was the same as above
1990's - the other part of the 1990's, after 30 years of trying to kill the jews, arafat finally realized that it wasn't working, and pretending to be a nice guy and appealing to world popular opinion seemed like the better way to go, so he finally agreed that he didn't want to kill the jews anymore (HOW NICE OF HIM!)... the problem was that while he ALLEGEDLY didn't want to anymore, his military organization, hamas, hezzbollah and other terrorist organizations continued right on that path, calling ALL of palestine/israel "occupied" and claiming they want "liberation," but their "liberation" meant killing israel off.

Notice that during the time above, EGYPT and JORDAN agreed to not mess with israel anymore, and IN RESPONSE, israel gave back the sinai. Israel repeatedly offered to do the same with the palestinians, but started to give up hope and started doing settlements after it was obvoius that palestinian leadership cared more about destroying israel than settling this.

And if you talk about REFUGEES, back decades ago there were hundreds of thousands of arab refugees, but there were also hundreds of thousands of jewih refugees who got picked on even worse in arab countries because arab countries tend to blame all jews for what any jews do.

BUt notice that israel ACCEPTED jewish refugees, and that's why there was no "jewish refugee problem," but arab countries REJECTED the majority of the arab refugees, forcing them to stay in refugee camps and USING THEM as an example to the world to show how unfair things are that israel exists.

Why did arab countries reject palestinians? Because palestinians messed with jordan (and got smacked down by king hussein in very serious fashion, in "black september," and palestinians messed with lebanon, and palestinians messed with kuwait. and palestinian leaders have always been uncivilized killers who always put destroying israel ahead of his own people.

"In Israel, all citizens can vote."
--- Yes, but what good is that really, when no candidate is allowed to vote on anything other than a platform that supports the racist Zionist ideology that Israel is a
"Jewish state" with a "Jewish character".

***Wrong. There is actually are Muslim political parties within the Israel government.

********* There certainly ARE Muslim politiccal parties within the Israeli government HOWEVER they are NOT allowed to run for office if they plan to challenge the "Jewish character" of Israel". Obviously Israel is therefore not a true democracy! Can you imagine if no one in American could run unless they support the "Christian White character of America"? How absurd a thought that is!

"In Saudia Arabia, citizens don't vote."
--- Saudi Arabia doesn't keep proclaiming to the world that they are "the only democracy in the Middle East" like Israel does. Saudi Arabia doesn't receive over 40%
of our US foreign aid, over $4 billion of our US tax dollars a year, to support Israel's ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian people! Saudi Arabia is not conducting an
ethnic cleansing campaign like Israel is doing and has been doing since 1948!

***See Universal Statement.

"In Israel, citizens can practice any religion."
--- Unless you are Jewish, even as an Israeli citizen you will not enjoy completely equal rights. 92% of the land inside Israel is for use by Jews ONLY. Jews are not
allowed to marry non-Jews. Christians are not allowed to teach Christianity in Israel. There are bypass roads for Jews ONLY that go to Jews ONLY settlements
on illegally confiscated Palestinian lands.

THIS IS A LIE>>>>***92% of Israeli’s ARE jewish. Road’s are restricted to ISRAELI’S, not Jews. Jews and marriage is not state mandated. And finally, Christians can teach in Israel.
TRUTH>>>> 20% of Israel's population is non-Jew. The bypass roads are for JEWS only, and Palestinians can be shot or beat up and arrested if caught on these roads. Jews cannot marry non-Jews and they cannot convert to Islam or Christianity. Christians are not allowed to try and convert Jews to Christianity. No Christian missionaries are allowed to proselytize in Israel. End of story. Do a google search on all this stuff to find the truth, and do cross-references. For example, do a google-search on "bypass roads in Israel"


"In Saudia Arabia, citizens can't be Jews."
--- Again, Saudi Arabia does not PRETEND the be "the only democracy in the Middle East" as Israel's proganda proclaims. Zionists like yourself lie about this
precisely to maintain that illusion so that Americans won't protest their tax dollars going to support the racist, anti-democratic, apartheid country of Israel.

***See the Universal comment at the bottom.

"In Israel, women hold any position. A former prime minister of Israel was a woman, amazing! "
--- Yeah, and she was a real witch. Big deal. It still doesn't make Israel a TRUE democracy. In fact, Golda Meir used to constantly lie about Israel, often repeating
the lie that "Israel was a land without people for a people without land".

***See the Universal comment at the bottom.
"In Saudia Arabia, women are not even allowed to drive a car or work "public" jobs where they might be seen doing a "man's work." "
--- Again, Saudi Arabia doesn't LIE about being a democracy like Israel does. Israel does not even have a constitution!

***Constitution does not equal a democracy.

"If your only concern is human rights, why are you putting your attention on Israel instead of Saudia Arabia? There is no comparison between the two lifestyles. "
--- See the above re: the massive US foreign aid to Israel and how Israel lies about being a democracy but Saudi Arabia does not. And how Israel is and has been
committing ethnic cleansing and slow genocide of the Palestinian people.

This is a LIE>>>> ***Israel has been proven a democracy by my above statements. Just because you don’t like how they vote does not make them any less a democracy.

These are LIES>>>>> ***UNIVERSAL STATEMENT*** >>>>> see http://www.cactus48.com for the truth!!!!
Israel is a key US ally in the region. By giving them that much money, we can dictate whether or not to allow them to go hog wild and start destroying every arab
country around them…which you yourself have stated that they have the power to do.

FACT: The area known as the Gaza Strip was part of JORDAN before the 1967 war. That means, that everyone who lived there before 1967…which is AFTER
1948….was a Jordanian.

What does that make those of the Gaza Strip? Occupied Jordanians.

Fact: The area known as the West Bank was part of EGYPT before the 1967 war. That means, that everyone who lived there before 1967…which is AFTER
1948….was an EGYPTIAN.

What does that make those of the Gaza Strip? Occupied EGYPTIANS.

Fact: Both Egypt and Jordan…along with Syria, Lebanon, and Iraq…declared war on Israel. Israel won and took the areas that the attacks were staged from.

Fact: The Sinai…which holds a good deal of oil….was also taken by Israel. It was given back under an agreement to be at peace and for Egypt to recognize Israel
as a Nation.

Fact: Jordan has since become peaceful with Israel, but they don’t want the Palestinians back. The PLO/PLA/PA has already once tried to take over Jordan….they
don’t want to give them a second chance.

"As for the "occupation," it will end as soon as (1) the intifada is called off and terrorists stop attacking israel, and/or (2) some sort of responsible palestinian
leadership exists that can control hamas and the other lunatic terrorist groups that enjoy enormous populatity among the "palestinians.""
--- As for the "terrorists" or more accurately the Palestinian freedom fighters and resistance to Zionist domination known as the "Intifada"--- this will end when the
Israeli state-sponsored terrorism ends, the occupation ends, and the racist ideology of Zionism is ended like Nazism was, and all the lunatic terrorist war
criminals in the Likud party such as Sharon and his posse that enjoy enormous popularity with right-wing Zionist racist Jews are replaced with progressive
Jewish leaders who recognize the humanity in all people and desire to live by The Golden Rule and the Ten Commendments, and seek a true democracy with
equal rights for all including all the Palestinian refugees who have the right to return to their ancestral homeland according to UN Resolutions, International Law
and world opinion.


This is pure bullshit>>>>>>>>***Why don’t the Palestinians….who were kicked out of Jordan for trying to over throw the government AND out of Lebanon for THE EXACT SAME THING…simply
stop the bombings and prove to the rest of the world that they are the better man, so to speak? Frankly, I wouldn’t want a bunch of half-cocked lunatics sitting next
door to me. If they can control themselves, then Israel, the US, and the UN has no choice but to give them what they ask.

Israel has NO Constitution, the US does!!!>>>>>>Next, the United States is not a true Democracy, either. It's a representative REPUBLIC. There's a difference. Get a book.

And lastly, for the IRAQI INVASION debate: ten...that's "10"...European countries support the US position, with another 30 or so around the globe. Less have come
out as formally against the invasion and the rest haven't chimed in on it one way or the other.

The US is not alone on this. <<<<<The US is ALONE with (ugh) Israel!!!!

You wouldn't know the truth if it bit you>>>> "Truth hurts, don't it?">>>>> see http://www.cactus48.com for the TRUTH!

Arabs who controlled Gaza, West bank, golan heights and east jerusalem did not offer palestinians a state when they had 100% control in 1948 - 1967

Israel now controls that land, and HAS offered palestinians a state, if only palestinians will forever end their dream of killing off the jews of israel until israel is no more.

Palestinians rejected the offer of their own state because it wasn't 100% perfect, and decided that it would be smarter if they began their new intifada and just attacked israel.

Find the palestinians some responsible leadership, and strong enough to put a clamp down on hamas and other lunatic terrorist organizations, and tell palestinians to end their intifada (which has harmed their cause horribly), and that would put pressure on israel to return the favor.

...to un-settle the stolen land, which is harming the zionist cause terribly...

What stolen land? You mean settlements on the territories Israel took control of in defensive wars? Israel offered to remove those settlements 2.5 years ago and give the palestinians almost total control of the west bank and gaza, and the palestinian response was to not even negotiate and instead began increased terrorist attacks and an all-out "intifada" against israel, which did nothing but result in israel having to come back and take over control of many towns again.

Israel is not going to leave until it is clear they will receive peace, not war. Which is exactly what Israel should do.

Years after the 1967 war, when Egypt made it clear that Israel would receive a lasting peace from them, Israel did a massively noble thing and gave Sinai back to Egypt. There is oil there, landing strips, and hoards of land in Sinai for a buffer. The Sinai is a HUGE area of land. Israel received real peace from Egypt and in response gave them the massive Sinai. Should Palestinians ever get a real, responsible leadership that is trustworthy and makes it clear that they can offer a real, lasting peace with Israel, Israel would be more than happy to end this lousy crap and give them land like they have offered in the past and like they did with Egypt.

It is insane for you to expect Israel to just withdraw from everything, when there are still many palestinian terrorist organizations who have made it crystal clear that their goal is to rid the entire palestine/israel area of every jew they can get rid of, while palestinian "leadership" has never wanted to prevent that from happening (and have sought it out themselves for decades in a row before finally claiming to chang their gameplan).

They weren't offering control of the West Bank and Gaza two years ago. I can offer Mitchell Plitnick of Jewish Voice for Peace who has a degree in Middle eastern studies, and who studied that offered agreement as an authority for that.

It's all about the settlements.

There was a great article two weeks ago in the NY Times magazine about the settlements - they often started as a small group of religious extremists (which every society has) and then the army followed to offer protection for the small group of settlers who moved into already occupied range or farmland in the West Bank, threatening and/or killing the original palestinian inhabitants. Following this, the settlements were built up with better buildings, fences, and defense structures. And after this, expensive roads that only Israelis are allowed to drive on were built and continue to be built to permit quick passage to the settlements. Palestinians aren't allowed to use or cross these roads and settlements without passing through checkpoints

This proposed agreement still allowed this landscape fractured by the many settlements and access roads, which would make the proposed state totally untenable. Not to mention, they weren't going to allow the palestinian state to have enough water to even function. Normal trade and economic function would be completely hampered by these stupid access roads and checkpoints where people would have to go long distances to go around.

Plus, how can anyone say they're bargaining in good faith *while new settlements are being built*. The number of religious extremists is a minority, like it is in any society, but the army is still protecting these nuts seizing new land and building new settlements.

That would be like if I knocked someone off their bicycle and took it, and then said that I'm totally sorry for taking their bicycle, and can't we still be friends and set up some sort of compromise, but I still held onto the bicycle and hit you in the nose and snickered when you tried to get it back

The uprising, which began the morning after the visit of the then opposition leader and now Prime Minister Ariel Sharon to the Temple Mount/ Harem-ash-Sharif, on September 28th 2000, did not begin with the first rock thrown by a Palestinian youth, or shooting by a “Tanzim” activist. The rock and the rifle, and in particular the demonstrations and clashes of Palestinians with IDF forces, are tied to the events of the past seven years since the signing of the Oslo Agreement. Sharon’s visit, and the killing of worshippers on the plazas of Jerusalem’s mosques on the following day, was the match that ignited the powder keg, which had threatened to explode for years. The tenure of former Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu (1996-1999), made it clear to the Palestinians that an elected Israeli Government might actually not be interested in reaching a peace agreement on the basis of the principle of United Nations Security Council Resolution UNSCR 242 (land for peace). This, together with the immense gap between the expectations raised by his successor Ehud Barak’s Government and the grim reality (the continuation of settlements, lives in the shadow of checkpoints, an unstable economic situation and other elements which will be described below) had an unmitigated effect on Palestinian public opinion. The Palestinian public and the “street” leadership – which originally was an enthusiastic supporter of the peace process and of the need to reach reconciliation with Israel – came to the conclusion that Israel did not in fact want to reach a fair agreement to end the occupation and grant the Palestinian people “legitimate rights”. In particular, from the moment when the five years of the Interim Agreement period expired and a Permanent Status was not even visible on the horizon, the clock began to tick towards the explosion. For Israel, the only way to prevent the detonation was to effect the agreements signed with the Palestinians rapidly and seriously, and to embark promptly on intensive Permanent Status negotiations. Prime Minister Ehud Barak failed to understand this.

Dr. Ron Pundak - Oslo Architect
June 2001
“From Oslo to Taba: What Went Wrong?”
[full document at Gush-Shalom]

---

"DEMOCRACY" - for Jews ONLY
Posted on JANUARY-26-2003
By Gideon Levy

What sort of democracy is this, if exactly half the state's residents don't benefit from it? Indeed, can the term "democratic" be applied to a state in which many of the residents live under a military regime or are deprived of civil rights? Can there be democracy without equality, with a lengthy occupation and with foreign workers who have no rights? And what about the racism?

The storm that was engendered by the leak of a document to the press by an attorney in the Tel Aviv District Attorney's Office, Liora Glatt-Berkovich, and by the police interrogation, under caution to boot, of Ha'aretz correspondent Baruch Kra was perfectly justified. More and more cracks are becoming apparent in the democratic regime. Kra's interrogation was an ominous portent, the all-out assault on attorney Glatt-Berkovich is terrifying, and the conduct of the attorney-general, Elyakim Rubinstein, is disgraceful.

We must not lightly let these phenomena pass by. We must not forget that the entire structure is wobbly. Once Israel became an occupying state, it ceased to be a democracy. There is no such thing: Israel's claims about its democratic character are empty boasts. Just as there is no such thing as a partial pregnancy, there is no such thing as a partial democracy, either.

No democracy exists only as far as a particular territorial line within the country, and no democracy is reserved exclusively for a particular religion or nationality. In a truly democratic regime, everyone enjoys his freedoms and rights in equal measure. That is not the case in Israel.

More than 10 million people live between the Mediterranean and the Jordan River, in the state and in its occupied territories. The separation between the occupied areas and the state is anachronistic: Israel has existed for far more years with the occupation than without it, and the territories are an integral part of it, with all this entails. Some 3.5 million Palestinians have been living under a brutal, rigorous military occupation for well over three decades. Surely no one will try to claim that they are free. Another 300,000 to 400,000 foreign workers live among us and are also without basic rights. They, too, are not part of a democracy.

Nor can anyone serious maintain that the 1.3 million Arabs who live in Israel are equal citizens. With the exception of the right to vote and the right to stand for office, which was almost taken from some of their representatives this month, there is hardly a sphere in which they can be said to be citizens of a democracy. They are discriminated against in every realm of life, and they are excluded from the democratic public discourse. One of their newspapers was recently shut down for two years by the interior minister and a mass movement of the Arab population is under threat of being outlawed. "Democracy" doesn't seem to be the appropriate word here, either.

Even some of the new immigrants do not share in Israeli democracy. A soldier in the Israel Defense Forces named Michael Gorkin cannot become an Israeli citizen only because he is not a Jew. The father of an immigrant from Ethiopia named Yisraeli Isham could not attend his daughter's wedding because the Interior Ministry cast doubt on his Jewishness. A regime that treats its people in this way cannot be called democratic.

What's left? Democracy exists only for the state's (proven) Jewish residents. That is, for about 5.3 million people, half of the 10.6 million people who live here. They are the only intended beneficiaries of the rule of law, freedom of expression, civic freedoms, equality before the law and a fair and just legal system.

Cracks have appeared in this democracy of late. The rule of law has been breached, the corruption scandals and the way they have been treated are raising serious questions, the government is trying to intimidate the press, social justice is a lost cause and equality, too, is far from being a fact.

We have to fight with all our might to get rid of all these ills, but, above all, the lying impression that we are democratic must be quashed. It is impossible to be both occupiers and democrats; there is no such thing as enlightened exploiters and racists. Those are unresolvable contradictions, flagrant oxymorons. Even if propriety is restored and the attorney-general no longer betrays his trust, the Supreme Court becomes a beacon of justice, the Knesset enacts only just laws and the government rules according to the law, the conditions for democracy will not yet exist in Israel.

On the day after tomorrow, when tanks guard the voters in Yitzhar and other West Bank settlements, when curfew protects the election process in the Jewish settlement in Hebron, when thousands of soldiers will defend the roads on which the polling stations will be transported and when foreign workers with no rights will sweep our streets, we should remember that this is half a democracy, no more.

full article @ Ha'Aretz

---

kee betachbulot ta'ase lecha milchama
Mossad - By Way of Deception Thou Shalt Do War

Israel offering ANYTHING AT ALL to their neighbors is generous. Their neighbors want Israel dead, and support people like Hamas who want to scare or kill every Jew out of the entire region. Israel offering them anything but "screw you, tell Egypt or Jordan to make you a citizen, since you scared all our Jews out and we made them citizens" is extremely generous.

Imagine if Mexico started launching constant terrorist attacks on America day after day, demanding that they be given Texas. What would America do? Would America say "Ok, we'll give you most of texas, but we still want to control bits and pieces of it for our own security?" Like Israel is offering the "palestiniens?" Hell no! America would probably smack Mexico into 800 pieces, or take it over. Yet you demand that Israel give in to lunatic terrorists and hand them a gift.

Jewish refugees from arab states were accepted into israel.

Arab "refugees" (debatable) from the one little tiny jewih state should have been accepted into one of the gazillion arab states. It's not israel's fault that they weren't.

Israel probably should have just blasted everyone up decades ago, like people tried to do to Israel. But you all want Israel to act perfectly, while you totally ignore the evil actions of others.

--"Israel probably should have just blasted everyone up decades ago..."

This forum runs the gamut from skinheads just now learning about the Internet to guilt-ridden self-flagellating trustfund-spoiled Americans.

Regardless, they will always be anti-Israel and will always ignore the evils of the neighboring Middle East dictatorships. Why? Because some just hate Jews. Others just hate America, and they consider Israel the closest proxy.

Don't argue with them. They know nothing. It's a waste of time.

You can be sure that anyone who refers to themself as "voice of reason" is not going to be one.



Did you click any of the links in my Gideon Levy flash presentation?

Did you read the Gideon Levy article from Ha'Aretz?

Is Ha'Aretz a nazi-skinhead publication?

Is Gideon Levy a nazi-skinhead?



What is argumentum ad-hominem?
Is it a rational method of "reasoning"?

Take your own advice.

But if there are some Zionists here who are that way just because they have always been indoctrinated with Zionist propaganda, but who now are trying seek to know the truth, I am glad you are here seeking it! For those Zionists who know the truth already, and seek to hide it from others, and prefer to keep telling lies to protect your racist apartheid Israel and racist Zionist beliefs, then you are not welcome here. Besides, don't worry. Mainstream corporate media is spreading your Zionist lies around quite well already. You're covered. The truth is covered there too.

We seek the truth here at Indymedia. Not corporate lies to protect the greedy.

and skinheads are wasting everyone's time!!

Something must be done about this anti-semitic fuckingINFESTATION! This isn't leftism!

Leftist jewhaters spend their time here because there is no where else for them to go - right wing jewhaters won't have them, Islamic jewhaters don't like them and the rest of the country supports Israel. They have to try and piggyback their lost cause to larger issues such as the anti-war movement, becuase if they tried to rally alone it would be apparant that there are only a few of them. So go ahead wendy and nessie, howl here in the ether. Then head over to Rainbow and buy some delicious Israeli products.

P.S. Do you know why Google news no longer automatically bring up articles from Indymedia? It's because my company, which does business with Google, sent them an e-mail and told them to stop passing hate off as news.

American and European (OK some East Europeans)
rich Jews who occupy someone elses soil can only
be considered "Nazis". They have the right to bear
weapons and shoot innocent women and children.
I am a catholic and support my brother muslems in
their fight to remove the people who stole their homes
and soil. The killing of settlers and soldiers is only
resisting an occupying force. They have the right to
resist under the Geneva Convention, or maybe it does
not apply to "Gods Chosen People", the Zion-Nazis!

That's an amazingly ignorant, idiotic set of lies (the post directly above this one). Jews bought the land they moved to. No one got kicked out of palestinian/israeli land until the 1948 war. Arab countries teamed up to try to kill off the jews there and take over the land that jews had spend the last 100 years buying and moving to, and many arabs who were in israel supported the death of israel.

For all the hundreds of thousands of arab refugees from that and future wars, there were hundreds of thousands of jewish refguees from arab countries.

Israel accepted jewish refugees into it.

arab countries rejected most arab refugees.

instead, arab countries just kept waging war on israel. and finally they stopped, but palestinian leaders kept right on attacking.

As for your insane summary of zionism, jews had been discriminated against in many countries around the world, and were becoming extremely desperate. Country after country proved to be unsafe for jews at one time or another for a very long time, and finally, some powerful jews tried to figure out where the hell on earth jews could be safe from that happening. Zionism was founded by non-religious jews. It was about finding a safe home for jews. Have you studied history at all? Jews were horribly discriminated against in a HUGE number of countries. Zionism was a response, it was about finding a home SOMEWHERE, ANYWHERE, wehre jews could be safe. Many places were considered for this home, it wasn't necessarily going to be israel. At one point, UGANDA was considered. But israel made sense, since (1) it was where jews came from in the first place and (2) it wasn't an actual established country yet, palestine was a "land territory" and (3) in the late 1800's, when zionism began, there were very few people living in palestine/israel. Mass immigration of jews ANd arabs began in the early 1900's, though arab immigration was unlimited, and jewish immigration was limited. Even during the holocaust, britain often rejected jews trying to flee and enter israel, and forced many of them to go back to europe to die.

Zionism was a response to the world's treatement of jews. IT was about a safe home for jews. Some jews already lived in israel/palestine, and others from the late 1800's and all through the 1900's bought land and bought homes there, and moved there. It had nothing to do with "jewish supremecy" and the LIES some of you people want to make up. How the hell can any educated person look at the history of the world's treatement of the jews in the 1700's, 1800's, and 1900's, and not understand a simple desire to have SOME PLACE on this planet where jews living in europe and in hostile middle east countries could try to be safe?

Zionism was about finding a safe home for jews. Buying land in that place. Establishing a nation. When there's war, bad things happen and refugees occur, but the goal was not "war" or "supremecy" or any sort of crazy bad stuff. Take all your horrible lies about the motivations behind zionism and shove them.

That's an amazingly ignorant, idiotic set of lies (the post directly above this one). Jews bought the land they moved to. No one got kicked out of palestinian/israeli land until the 1948 war. Arab countries teamed up to try to kill off the jews there and take over the land that jews had spend the last 100 years buying and moving to, and many arabs who were in israel supported the death of israel.

For all the hundreds of thousands of arab refugees from that and future wars, there were hundreds of thousands of jewish refguees from arab countries.

Israel accepted jewish refugees into it.

arab countries rejected most arab refugees.

instead, arab countries just kept waging war on israel. and finally they stopped, but palestinian leaders kept right on attacking.

As for your insane summary of zionism, jews had been discriminated against in many countries around the world, and were becoming extremely desperate. Country after country proved to be unsafe for jews at one time or another for a very long time, and finally, some powerful jews tried to figure out where the hell on earth jews could be safe from that happening. Zionism was founded by non-religious jews. It was about finding a safe home for jews. Have you studied history at all? Jews were horribly discriminated against in a HUGE number of countries. Zionism was a response, it was about finding a home SOMEWHERE, ANYWHERE, wehre jews could be safe. Many places were considered for this home, it wasn't necessarily going to be israel. At one point, UGANDA was considered. But israel made sense, since (1) it was where jews came from in the first place and (2) it wasn't an actual established country yet, palestine was a "land territory" and (3) in the late 1800's, when zionism began, there were very few people living in palestine/israel. Mass immigration of jews ANd arabs began in the early 1900's, though arab immigration was unlimited, and jewish immigration was limited. Even during the holocaust, britain often rejected jews trying to flee and enter israel, and forced many of them to go back to europe to die.

Zionism was a response to the world's treatement of jews. IT was about a safe home for jews. Some jews already lived in israel/palestine, and others from the late 1800's and all through the 1900's bought land and bought homes there, and moved there. It had nothing to do with "jewish supremecy" and the LIES some of you people want to make up. How the hell can any educated person look at the history of the world's treatement of the jews in the 1700's, 1800's, and 1900's, and not understand a simple desire to have SOME PLACE on this planet where jews living in europe and in hostile middle east countries could try to be safe?

Zionism was about finding a safe home for jews. Buying land in that place. Establishing a nation. When there's war, bad things happen and refugees occur, but the goal was not "war" or "supremecy" or any sort of crazy bad stuff. Take all your horrible lies about the motivations behind zionism and shove them.

As for some bad things some people who happen to believe that israel should exist have done, not every human being of any race, religion or movement is always going to be a good person, obviously some people suck, obviously some people do the wrong thing, and obviously not all elected (or non-elected) governments always do the right thing.

So, ponting out some bad things the israeli govt may or may not have done does not affect the big picture, that (1) zionism was a response to the world's treatement of jews and the recognition that jews needed some sort of safe haven, and (2) israel's main goal is to exist and be safe.

"rich jews", "chosen people", international bankers, controlled media - you're dealing with a brownshirt here, not a supporter of Palestinian rights. Don't waste your time.

Judaaism is a religion - not a race.



Zionism is a eugenically motivated political cult of deity "covenented" warriors.

That is a "GENETIC FACT."

quote:
===========
How 90 Peruvians became the latest Jewish settlers
[...]


According to Ben-Haim, "the idea that there are Palestinians here at all is a lie. The Palestinian people never existed and only when the Jews leave their country, the Arabs come in and try to take over and prove they have a right here. But we cannot agree to that because the Lord gave the land to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob for all time, and all the Jews will be united and love the Lord with all their heart, and then all the problems will be solved."

What is the solution? "In Peru I thought that all the Jews in Israel were religiously observant," says Mendel. "It was only when I came here that I heard that almost 30% of the Jews are not religious, and that broke my heart."

Is that what you were told, I ask - that the majority of the Jews in Israel are religious? "Yes, the majority but not everyone. But if they all become fully religious and unite, the Messiah will come and the problems with the Palestinians will be solved because they will get out of here."

Mendel's eyes glitter as she talks: "It will be the most wonderful day in the world when all the Arabs will become Jews and observe the commandments and love the Lord and when the Messiah comes, there will be no one in the land of our fathers who does not love the Lord and Judaism with all their heart."

You only became a member of this nation a few months ago, and have been in the country less than two months, I say. Do you know that there are Arabs whose families have lived here for hundreds of years?

"But God said that whomsoever becomes a Jew with a full heart and observes the commandments - only to a Jew like that will He give the land for generation unto generation."
[...]

Ben-Haim is not bothered by the fact that by being sent to a settlement, he has also been effectively recruited to a particular political group: "We knew we were coming to a place that is called 'territories' because people we know immigrated earlier and are living in the settlements in the territories. But I have no problem with that because I do not consider the territories to be occupied territories. You cannot conquer what has in any case belonged to you since the time of the patriarch, Abraham."

Ben-Haim says that after he finishes the Hebrew course, he may join the army, "because I wasn't in the army in Peru and that is something I lack, and also because I want to defend the country and if there is no choice, I will kill Arabs. But I am sure that Jews kill Arabs ONLY for self-defence and justice, but Arabs do it because THEY LIKE TO KILL."

He bases this belief on his scientific view of Judaism: "The Arab has the instinct of murder and killing LIKE ALL GENTILE, and ONLY JEWS DO NOT have that instinct - THAT IS A GENETIC FACT."

But if you were not born a Jew genetically, don't you have that instinct? "Maybe it was there, but it makes no difference because now we are all Jews."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/comment/0,10551,770315,00.html
==================================


We teach [THE CONVERT] about the history of the Jews, that, no matter what happens, the Jews will never be destroyed, UNLIKE ALL THE OTHER NATIONS OF THE WORLD which only last for a short time and then they disappear.

-- Eliezer C. Abrahamson
http://www.members.aol.com/lazera/Jew.htm
=========================================


I want to bring a word from G–d to the enemies of Israel and to all the nations in the world. DO NOT EVEN TRY to prevent this godly event and process. The PURIFICATION of the Temple Mount from the foreigners and enemies of Israel and their DESECRATION of the holy site of G–d and the rebuilding of the temple cannot be prevented. This is a major historical, prophetic, end-time event which the G–d of Israel and the Universe will soon bring to completion in our lifetime.

http://www.templemountfaithful.org/Events/tishabav5761b.htm
=========================================


U.S. President Woodrow Wilson's 1919 King-Crane Commision Report: ZIONISM

[...]
With the best possible intentions, it may be doubted whether the Jews could possibly seem to either Christians or Moslems proper guardians of the holy places, or custodians of the Holy Land as a whole.

The reason is this: The places which are most sacred to Christians-those having to do with Jesus-and which are also sacred to Moslems, are not only NOT SACRED to Jews, but ABHORRENT to them.

http://raven.cc.ukans.edu/~kansite/ww_one/docs/kncr.htm
==========================================

Need more evidence, zionazis?

More evidence of what? That Gilad is a crazed, ranting piece of shit asshole who wants to do anything he can to pick and choose random quotes from people and build an idiotic, illogical, ignorant strawman argument against zionism?

Mission accomplished!

Truth Teller sez: '"rich jews", "chosen people", international bankers, controlled media - you're dealing with a brownshirt here, not a supporter of Palestinian rights. Don't waste your time.'

Now, the _real_ brownshirts are all at IMC-Jerusalem since last August's coup. Blood libel, Holocaust denial, the "Ashkenazi aren't really Jews" bit, "kike," the international money conspiracy... all there. And all supposedly in the name of the Palestinian national struggle, and all supposedly in the name of fighing racism.

Take a look at it, if you haven't for a while. It's sickening. IMC-Jerusalem has devolved into a terrible embarrassment to the IMC movement, and everybody knows it and most people just ignore it, hoping it will go away, and take its neo-Nazis with it.

Here things are considerably milder, and mostly they just chortle "nazi! nazi! nazi!" a lot. The bias against Israel is so thick you could cut it with a knife, and a hystrionic dogmatic eyes-bugged-out one-side-is-always-right and the-other-side-is-always-lying double standard doesn't have to also be antisemitic to be a very bad thing. Although just a little while ago, one of the over-the-edge types went off on the "Kosher Tax Scam," which she declared was a nefarious secret Jewish plot to defraud gentiles to pay for the state of Israel. And then pretended she hadn't tipped her hand bigtime.

At which point, the most vocal critics of Zionism said: exactly nothing.

Meaning that overt antisemitism within their movement is something their loudest speakers find unworthy of notice. "If Jews don't like it, that's _their_ problem. Some of my best friends are Jews, so I couldn't _possibly_ be tainted, and the movement couldn't possibly be tainted. And if Windy Wendy wants to call Judas Iscariot a Zionist, demonstrating that her problem with The Jews is a hell of a lot more than just Zionism, then I will use my moral standing to go wash the cat -- and, when Wendy's bluff is called, shout "There go the Zionists screaming 'antisemitism' again. Don't they know that our movement is _perfectly pure_?"

And with that little duck-and-weave, the Dismantle Israel folks think they absolve themselves. Instead, they simply demonstrate to anyone who reads them what's really motivating them.

@%<

ad hominem abuse -- a standard zionist strategy -- won't get you anywhere.

=======
===========
How 90 Peruvians became the latest Jewish settlers
[...]

Ben-Haim says that after he finishes the Hebrew course, he may join the army, "because I wasn't in the army in Peru and that is something I lack, and also because I want to defend the country and if there is no choice, I will kill Arabs. But I am sure that Jews kill Arabs ONLY for self-defence and justice, but Arabs do it because THEY LIKE TO KILL."

He bases this belief on his scientific view of Judaism: "The Arab has the instinct of murder and killing LIKE ALL GENTILE, and ONLY JEWS DO NOT have that instinct - THAT IS A GENETIC FACT."


http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/comment/0,10551,770315,00.html

===================


Who taught Ben Haim the Genetic Facts?

WHY?


What is the slogan of Mossad?

Who murdered Count Folke Bernadotte?

WHY?

Who attacked U.S. buildings in Egypt and tried to frame Arabs?

WHY?

Who bombed the U.S.S. Liberty?

WHY?


What is a WAR BY DECEPTION?

Haha, a "typical zionist strategy."

We've got a live one here, folks. He's ready to froth at the mouth, yelling about what "those zionists do" in their evil plot to, uhh, exist and be safe!

You're laughable.

=======
We've got a live one here, folks.
========

Appeal to ridicule


======
He's ready to froth at the mouth, yelling about what "those zionists do" in their evil plot to, uhh, exist and be safe!
======

Appeal to ridicule and a strawman


======
You're laughable.
======

Appeal to ridicule.


Care to try answering the questions instead?

I can repeat them for you...

Oh. look. Here's someone who wants to take me to cut-and-paste school. The catechism thing is _so_ 1990's.

Here's one for you. What did Abu Mazen -- the guy Arafat just picekd to be his prime minister -- say about the death of six million Jews in the Holocaust?

But of course, the Palestinian nationalist movement is _perfectly_ _perfectly_ pure of any taint of antisemitism. And if you think otherwise, you're an eee-evil Zionist.

@%<

Dear Editor,
Please fix text to fit screen to make this easier to read.
Thanks,
Reader

===========
How 90 Peruvians became the latest Jewish settlers
[...]

Ben-Haim says that after he finishes the Hebrew course, he may join the army, "because I wasn't in the army in Peru and that is something I lack, and also because I want to defend the country and if there is no choice, I will kill Arabs. But I am sure that Jews kill Arabs ONLY for self-defence and justice, but Arabs do it because THEY LIKE TO KILL."

He bases this belief on his scientific view of Judaism: "The Arab has the instinct of murder and killing LIKE ALL GENTILE, and ONLY JEWS DO NOT have that instinct - THAT IS A GENETIC FACT."


http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/comment/0,10551,770315,00.html

===================


Who taught Ben Haim the Genetic Facts?

WHY?


What is the slogan of Mossad?

Who murdered Count Folke Bernadotte?

WHY?

Who attacked U.S. buildings in Egypt and tried to frame Arabs?

WHY?

Who bombed the U.S.S. Liberty?

WHY?


What is a WAR BY DECEPTION?
==============================

repeated thrice with nothing but abuse from zionists...

Listen, will you fucking jew zionists respond, please?

Zionists have infiltrated America with their plot to take over the world. The middle east is just the first step. They will deceive and deceive until they take over the entire universe and take us all about the zionist spaceship to anally probe us and perform tests to see how we mate with space aliens from the galaxy zylgor.

I hear Zylgor is nice this time of year.

But I don't think that last post was Gilad. Forgery is lame.

@%<

obfuscastionist, Gehrig- but at least you're observant.

cheers.

Gilad is a common Israeli name.
Since the first Gilad is Real effective at xposing the true nature of the Palestinian- Israeli conflict a clever zionist decided to amuse the rest of us by signing her name as ``Gilad Goy``.
To read the truth, skip over Goy and go straight
to Gilad.Peace

Finally, people are taking action around the country to STOP Zionism in its tracks!
http://www.nowarforisrael.com

NO WAR FOR ISRAEL! NO WAR FOR ZIONISTS!

By the way, I'm sure the US could work out great oil deals without the HUGE stumbling block of racist Israel, guilty of relentless ethnic cleansing and oppression of the Palestinian people! STOP US AID TO APARTHEID ISRAEL! NOW!

I looked at the nowardforisrael site you suggested. The first thing I noticed was the photos of the burning American flags. That's sure to get you the mainstream support you crave.

As I've demonstrated in another thread, the site Wendy's raving about is a front site for the neo-Nazi organization National Vanguard, part of the National Alliance.

Whether or not she knew it in advance, she knows it now.

@%<

Hey, what about the Zionists and the Christian Evangelicals? Now there's a pairing made in HELL.

See no evil.

Nazis in the movement? What Nazis?

@%<

You mistakenly mentioned atrocities committed by the IDF. Didn't you mean Hamas and their ilk? Certainly, the IDF is doing whatever it can out of reaction and defense to the murderous terrorists of "palestine". Don't worry though. Honest mistake.

That's not entirely true is it? Israelis have killed (accidentally) 776 Palestinian non-combatants, Palestinians have killed (on purpose!) 550 Israeli non-combatants. So more-or- less tit-for-tat.

Especially consider, Israel has the technology to kill as many Arabs as they want and they have killed fewer than any other regime in the region.

STOP THE OCCUPATION, obviously, but more importantly for The Movement, STOP THE HYSTERIA!

Zionism is only a threat to world security in as far as anyone cares about Israel and who controls it.
Therefore the root cause of the fault is a mutual one between the islamic people and the jews one which is not shared by the majority of christians (showing that it can be done).
I wonder what the term is for Islamic "zionism".. palistinianism?

"Gilad is a common Israeli name. "
------------

correct


"Since the first Gilad is Real effective at xposing the true nature of the Palestinian- Israeli conflict"
------------

...thanks for the compliment, but...


"a clever zionist "
-----------------



as the "original" Gilad subject to pseudonym theft, I decided to:

a) offer gehrig a backhanded compliment for noticing that the "gilad" who used "jew" as a pejorative was fake, and

b) entertain you with a new 'nym



Best Regards,

Folke Bernadotte of the U.N.
John Flashcroft
Moshe Pit
Already Published
®eich turn™

--"...confused and angry fools damn the Jewish State for behaving like any nation would when under attack..."

So, Israel is "under attack" when it is attacking Palestinian civilians in the Occupied Territories for the express purpose of ethnically cleansing the land of non-Jews.

Israel is "under attack" when it is attacking Palestinian civilians in the Occupied Territories for the express purpose of ethnically cleansing the land of non-Jews

and Palestine is "under attack" when it is attacking Israel civilians in the Holy Land for the express purpose of ethnically cleansing the land of non-Arabs

of course only the second opinion is held by the majority of its respective population

but really what can we do about it?